[quote]General User wrote...
By itself? No. What it does do is contibute to a climate of hostility and suspicion which lead to a war and for which the Dalish were partly, if not largely, responsible.[/quote]
The Dales did not open their borders to traders or converters, so it's "largely" their fault that their pushy neighbors chose to interpret this with "hostility and suspicion" instead of--I don't know--interpreting it as the elves wanting to be left alone and just leaving them alone?
[quote]Not exactly. But if the ancient Dalish really did incite or even just willingly/eagerly participate in, a war their human neighbors, then yes, those humans would be very much entitled to "take their kingdom."[/quote]
I'm sure Fereldans did not voluntarily give up their land or farms to Orlaisians when they said "we want it," so does that mean the Orlaisians were
entitled to brutally conquer and occupy the country and plunder its rescources for a century? Or any other country for that matter? Just because the Orlaisians want something from their neighbors does not mean they're entitled to forcefully take it when the neighbors say "no thank you."
[quote]Tevinter was and is a society based on blood magic and slavery. Were you expecting equality?[/quote]
No, but my point is only some humans were slaves while
all elves were slaves. It sucked for elves more than humans.
[quote]As I'm sure you noticed, the opinions and attitudes of both Alistair and Leliana changed over the course of the game. So it's not their opinions that are of concern to me so much as how willing they were to change them.[/quote]
And they don't change their opinions unless you challenge them about it, especially Leliana's view about elves.
If Leliana is any indication, waiting for humans to decide they no longer perceive elves as inferior, or elves' inferior position in human society as "normal" or "natural," clearly doesn't work. Waiting for humans to decide they no longer wish to hold onto prejudices or sterotypes clearly won't work either.
[quote]Besides, Alistair is the King of Ferelden. When you're talking about the Crowned Head of a feudal society, what the "majority" think of anything is rather less significant than the modern mind is used to thinking of. IOW, Alistair's and Arnora's opinions are ones that matter, the same cannot be said of "the majority."[/quote]
A) Alistair can only
potentially become the King of Fereldan, depending on the Warden's actions.
The King and/or Queen of Fereldan is answerable to the Bannorn. Fereldan is not a strict monarchy where the sovereign holds all the power. The Fereldan monarch only has as much power as the Bannorn gives them. Since the Bannorn consists of dozens and dozens of Andrastian human lords and ladies who can both give and take power from the monarch with votes from the Landsmeet (or a civil war if it comes to that), I would say
their opinions are "the ones that matter." (Loghain is living proof of that.)
Since most, if not all, of the human nobles hold racist atittudes against elves, and most, if not all, of each human nobles' human subjects and soldiers hold racist attitudes against elves, then I would say that having the good opinion of one monarch is not enough to make drastic or lasting social change. (Never mind the condition of elves in other countries.)
[quote]Faerunner wrote...
Elves do demonstrate that humans are in error, but humans choose to ignore the positive examples in favour of focusing on negative examples. If your argument is that the entire elven race has to magically give up all their flaws and magically morph into perfect model citizens and soldiers so that the humans cannot find one negative example to use against them, then that's not going to happen because a) no one's perfect, and
no race or culture can consist of all perfect people. [/quote]
[quote]General User wrote..Since that wasn't my argument… I'll move on.[/quote]
It's what I get from your argument. You seem to place the blame of human racism and stereotyping on elven shoulders because
some elves live up to the negative stereotype. That it's okay for humans to dismiss and withhold opportunities from
all elves just because some of them prove their negative views correct. It's okay for
all elves to be punished for the actions of other people in their race. That
all elves deserve the racism and unequal opportunities they receive just because they aren't all perfect.
[quote]Faerunner wrote...
All races are going to have positive and negative representatives. Among other things, humans need to learn to recognize this and learn to stop looking down on and withholding opportunities for the entire elven race just because of a few bad examples, because the bad examples aren't going away. [/quote]
[quote]General User wrote..Yes. But here's the thing, if you're asking "the humans" to place any degree of confidence in "the elves", it then becomes incumbent upon those elves to prove themselves worthy of that confidence.[/quote]
And many elves
do prove themselves, and humans still overlook the good ones in favour of only focusing on the bad ones (and withhold opportunities from the good ones because they lump them in with the bad ones). Yet you still imply its all of the elves' fault that the majority of humans won't give them better chances or opportunities to prove themselves just because of the bad examples.
[quote]Faerunner wrote...
I never said that it was all the Orlaisian's fault or that the Dalish were innocent victims. However, I also do not buy the argument that the Dales deserved to lose their kingdom just because they refused to open their borders to human snoops. If the "hostility" originated from elves not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should, or letting humans come in and out as they pleased, then I'd say that humans attitude and course of action was wrong too. [/quote]
[quote]General User wrote... There's a huge difference between the ancient Dalish "not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should" and the ancient Dalish running their kingdom in such a way that their human neighbors could reasonably construe as hostile.[/quote]
Staying within their own borders and minding their own business was "reasonably construed as hostile"?
[quote]Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes. You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step. [/quote]
And humans haven't taken the next step, and it's still the elves' fault that their treatment hasn't progressed? Sound logic.
So, what? Humans should retain all the power? Elves should just sit with their hands in their laps and wait for humans to decide when they feel like giving them more rights and opportunities? And when humans decide they don't feel like giving them better chances or opportunities after all (which they
have done time and time again over the centuries), the elves should just quietly accept their unequal treatment as a fact of life because the humans know better?
They should just accept prejudice and poverty? They should just accept living in walled off alienages filled with filth and squalor? They should just accept being homeless, constantly wandering human lands to avoid human detection? They should just accept racial slurs, hate crimes and lynch mobs? They should just accept the local garrison looking the other way when humans commit crimes against them but leading purges when they do the same? They should just accept being the dregs of every human country they live in?
Because, hey! You can't change people's attitudes, and the majority of humans think this is all elves deserve, so there's nothing elves can do about it but sit quietly and take it like a ****. (It's not like changing societal values stem from changing attitudes, and it's not like attitudes can change from being challenged or replaced with others.)
They shouldn't challenge it? They shouldn't demand better rights, or fight for it when humans refuse?
[quote]And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step.[/quote]
And then they promptly took that next step backward. No progress made.
[quote]By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen. [/quote]
"It doesn't always stick"?
Try "it never sticks."
Being good, obedient, helpful little
slaves citizens and soldiers has not worked. Fighting in Andraste's army has not worked. Defeating the Fourth (and possibly Fifth) Blight has not worked. Fighting in Loghain's Army has not worked. Saving human freedom and human lives has not worked. Your method has not worked.
"Being of service to their nations" just means they "made progress" for the humans of their nations, then the humans went back to treating the elves exactly the same way they did before they ever joined their armies.
Humans hold onto the same attitude no matter how the elves help them, yet you propose that elves just keep helping humans and keep hoping that humans eventually change their attitudes about the elves on their own. It hasn't worked so far, so what in Thedas makes you think it will work this time?
[quote]Time and time again, whenever the elves make progress they just fall back into the same failed patterns of isolation and hostility. That's why the progress never sticks.
If all you're going to do is rest on your laurels you can't be surprised when you start to backslide. Can't ever stop. Can't ever quit. 'Cause the other side sure won't. [/quote]
And yet you still argue that elves should join armies and contradict stereotypes, because that's totally worked in the past, right?
Modifié par Faerunner, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .
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