394 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

...is not the subject of what you were replying to.

Exactly. Why it was brought up is unclear.

That would be something only you could know.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or, and here's a possibility, the humans could acknowledge these as legitimate examples. Sure, it'd be useful for more elves to try to be one-in-a-million heroes after one of them shows up, but it's not right they should have to do so.

No one's asking the elves to become or even to strive to become world changing heros, just to capitalize on the goodwill those hero's deeds generate.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Or, and here's a possibility, the humans could acknowledge these as legitimate examples. Sure, it'd be useful for more elves to try to be one-in-a-million heroes after one of them shows up, but it's not right they should have to do so.

No one's asking the elves to become or even to strive to become world changing heros, just to capitalize on the goodwill those hero's deeds generate.

True, humans aren't asking anything except for elves to sit down, shut up and forget about any outliers.

[CroGamer002]

Long enough they're not some murdering zealots( looking at you Witcher), I'm fine.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Taken away, and so was the Hinterlands, according to Alistair's vagueness. Everything goes back to the bad old days in the end.

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Exactly. Why it was brought up is unclear.

You brought it up. I gave you examples of times humans greatly helped elves.

Taken away, and so was the Hinterlands, according to Alistair's vagueness. Everything goes back to the bad old days in the end.

Because the elves insist on acting like they did during those bad old days.
Arlathan was isolationist and treated humans like a plague, Arlathan was lost. The Dales was isolationist and treated humans like the plague, the Dales was lost.
And now neither the Dalish not the city elves have learned a thing. Both are still isolationist.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[Xilizhra]

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Only if you accept Orlais' feelings being hurt as a justification for war.

You brought it up. I gave you examples of times humans greatly helped elves.

And they weren't even slightly the same humans who destroyed the Dales.

Because the elves insist on acting like they did during those bad old days.
Arlathan was isolationist and treated humans like a plague, Arlathan was lost. The Dales was isolationist and treated humans like the plague, the Dales was lost.
And now neither the Dalish not the city elves have learned a thing. Both are still isolationist.

Humans were a plague and destroyed Arlathan as well as elven life in general. One human general let elves tag along for fighting the other humans and gave them land that other humans took away, and now most elves are either wage slaves or complete slaves while the others are constantly running away from templar death squads. There can be no integration on equal terms here in currently existing society, only in newly created ones.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change. Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population... You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.

Or, and here's a possibility, the humans could acknowledge these as legitimate examples.

They do, every human society recognizes Garahel as a hero and the Night Elves were greatly respected in Fereldan.

Xilizhra wrote...
Sure, it'd be useful for more elves to try to be one-in-a-million heroes after one of them shows up, but it's not right they should have to do so.

And in time they won't.  However it's up to the elves to show that all of them, or at least most of them, are capable and willing of contributing beyond what they currently have.  It's the case of all inequalities; blacks had to work remarkably hard for the incremental improvements in their station between the abolishment of slavery and the Civil Rights Movement.  It's a sad reality that equality must first be earned, it has never in our history just been given out.

[Xilizhra]

They do, every human society recognizes Garahel as a hero and the Night Elves were greatly respected in Fereldan.

Only as outliers. That doesn't count.

And in time they won't. However it's up to the elves to show that all of them, or at least most of them, are capable and willing of contributing beyond what they currently have. It's the case of all inequalities; blacks had to work remarkably hard for the incremental improvements in their station between the abolishment of slavery and the Civil Rights Movement. It's a sad reality that equality must first be earned, it has never in our history just been given out.

Fine, but I see no reason to submit to current human-dominated societies if there's a chance to create new and equal ones, which with the current chaos of the mage war, there may well be.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Only if you accept Orlais' feelings being hurt as a justification for war.

"Offenses to national prestige" you mean?  Wars have been fought for less.  And certainly triggered by less when two nations have been mutually hositle for a number of years.  How they stack up in terms of "justification" really depends on how grave the offense was, among other circumstances.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Only if you accept Orlais' feelings being hurt as a justification for war.

"Offenses to national prestige" you mean?  Wars have been fought for less.  And certainly triggered by less when two nations have been mutually hositle for a number of years.  How they stack up in terms of "justification" really depends on how grave the offense was, among other circumstances.

I'm not fond of anyone else's use of that "justification" either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fine, but I see no reason to submit to current human-dominated societies if there's a chance to create new and equal ones, which with the current chaos of the mage war, there may well be.

The greater chance of worse occuring doesn't count as a reason?

Especially when the Elvish-dominated socieites would have no more basis for claiming to be equal?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Only if you accept Orlais' feelings being hurt as a justification for war.

"Offenses to national prestige" you mean?  Wars have been fought for less.  And certainly triggered by less when two nations have been mutually hositle for a number of years.  How they stack up in terms of "justification" really depends on how grave the offense was, among other circumstances.

I'm not fond of anyone else's use of that "justification" either.

Okay.

How about destroying settlements? Or is that just hurt feelings?

[Xilizhra]

The greater chance of worse occuring doesn't count as a reason?

Especially when the Elvish-dominated socieites would have no more basis for claiming to be equal?

Revising this somewhat. I cannot find it within me to believe that human society will ever let elves be equal without either an inordinate length of time or some sort of violent and/or opportunistic action to rise themselves further, or rather destroy part of the power structure that prevents from them doing so.

Okay.

How about destroying settlements? Or is that just hurt feelings?

I don't think that happened until after Orlais' own aggression against the Dales.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing is, the Dales weren't taken away exactly they were lost as the result of a war the Dalish themselves were more than a little responsible for.

Only if you accept Orlais' feelings being hurt as a justification for war.

"Offenses to national prestige" you mean?  Wars have been fought for less.  And certainly triggered by less when two nations have been mutually hositle for a number of years.  How they stack up in terms of "justification" really depends on how grave the offense was, among other circumstances.

I'm not fond of anyone else's use of that "justification" either.

Okay.

How about destroying settlements? Or is that just hurt feelings?

Most nations would find their neighbors launching an attack on one of their border towns highly offensive to their prestige indeed.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

They do, every human society recognizes Garahel as a hero and the Night Elves were greatly respected in Fereldan.

Only as outliers. That doesn't count.

Because they are outliers, their abilities and attitudes are not reflected by the general population.  Elves don't aspire to be Garahel, we don't see elvish children running around pretending to be Night Elves, because their culture beats it into their heads that they need to keep their heads down, stay quiet, and not draw attention.

Keep in mind that's their culture, when elves are kidnapped in the Origin what do the elves want to do?  Nothing, just keep quiet and hope they all come back alive.  It's not that they don't do anything, that's understandable given who they're going after, it's that aside from the Warden (if male) or her husband and their cousin (name escapes me) express any desire to do anything.

Xilizhra wrote...

And in time they won't. However it's up to the elves to show that all of them, or at least most of them, are capable and willing of contributing beyond what they currently have. It's the case of all inequalities; blacks had to work remarkably hard for the incremental improvements in their station between the abolishment of slavery and the Civil Rights Movement. It's a sad reality that equality must first be earned, it has never in our history just been given out.

Fine, but I see no reason to submit to current human-dominated societies if there's a chance to create new and equal ones, which with the current chaos of the mage war, there may well be.

Because such a society, if it repeats the isolationist policies of the past, is doomed to the same fate as Arlathan and the Dales.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The greater chance of worse occuring doesn't count as a reason?

Especially when the Elvish-dominated socieites would have no more basis for claiming to be equal?

Revising this somewhat. I cannot find it within me to believe that human society will ever let elves be equal without either an inordinate length of time or some sort of violent and/or opportunistic action to rise themselves further, or rather destroy part of the power structure that prevents from them doing so.

And? What Elven society has been equal? What is the alternative society of equalness, besides Tevinter the Mageocracy or Qunari the ideological despotism.

Okay.

How about destroying settlements? Or is that just hurt feelings?

I don't think that happened until after Orlais' own aggression against the Dales.

The sacking was before the war.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Because they are outliers, their abilities and attitudes are not reflected by the general population. Elves don't aspire to be Garahel, we don't see elvish children running around pretending to be Night Elves, because their culture beats it into their heads that they need to keep their heads down, stay quiet, and not draw attention.

Not quite. If you talk with the elven kinds during the CE origin, it's made fairly clear that not only do they not know that any elven heroes existed, but even the PC doesn't and has to make one up. I don't think Garahel's story has been widely repeated at all.

Keep in mind that's their culture, when elves are kidnapped in the Origin what do the elves want to do? Nothing, just keep quiet and hope they all come back alive. It's not that they don't do anything, that's understandable given who they're going after, it's that aside from the Warden (if male) or her husband and their cousin (name escapes me) express any desire to do anything.

Well... yeah? He's a lord who could squash the place with relative ease.

Because such a society, if it repeats the isolationist policies of the past, is doomed to the same fate as Arlathan and the Dales.

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality if they could get a new society to work.

And? What Elven society has been equal? What is the alternative society of equalness, besides Tevinter the Mageocracy or Qunari the ideological despotism.

For any reasons why those wouldn't be equal, or arguably the Dalish one, we go more into the mage issue.

The sacking was before the war.

So the Dalish were totally isolationist for hundreds of years until they decided to just start a war for no reason? I find this unlikely.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality.

That wouldn't be equality. Equality is something that can only exist in a multi-component population. An elven state isn't equal: it's monopolar.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality.

That wouldn't be equality. Equality is something that can only exist in a multi-component population. An elven state isn't equal: it's monopolar.

I may have been unclear. I was more ferring to them building a new society along with humans if the mage war causes enough damage to it, or at least opening that as a possibility. A unified Dalish state could work as well.

[Patchwork]

Cadash thaig didn't end well but allying themselves with the dwarves might be the elves best shot at equality .

It's not a perfect solution and Bhelan or someone Bhelan-esq would have to be on the throne but still it could be a way for these two isolationist races to move forward. The old way isn't working particularly well for either of them.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality.

That wouldn't be equality. Equality is something that can only exist in a multi-component population. An elven state isn't equal: it's monopolar.

I may have been unclear. I was more ferring to them building a new society along with humans if the mage war causes enough damage to it, or at least opening that as a possibility. A unified Dalish state could work as well.

I thought humans were "plaguebearers" to the elves?  And that a society along with humans would be "death" to the little folk.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because they are outliers, their abilities and attitudes are not reflected by the general population. Elves don't aspire to be Garahel, we don't see elvish children running around pretending to be Night Elves, because their culture beats it into their heads that they need to keep their heads down, stay quiet, and not draw attention.

Not quite. If you talk with the elven kinds during the CE origin, it's made fairly clear that not only do they not know that any elven heroes existed, but even the PC doesn't and has to make one up. I don't think Garahel's story has been widely repeated at all.

Yes because the elves don't aspire to those qualities, so they don't share those stories.  Unless you're arguing that no elf in the Denerim Alienage ever heard of Garahel or the Night Elves.

Xilizhra wrote...

Keep in mind that's their culture, when elves are kidnapped in the Origin what do the elves want to do? Nothing, just keep quiet and hope they all come back alive. It's not that they don't do anything, that's understandable given who they're going after, it's that aside from the Warden (if male) or her husband and their cousin (name escapes me) express any desire to do anything.

Well... yeah? He's a lord who could squash the place with relative ease.

Again that forgives why they didn't act, not that they didn't want to.  It's fine to acknowledge that they can't stop Vaughn but they give the impression most of them wouldn't even bother to try if they could.  That's the culture they've bred, one of submission and silent acceptance of their lot.  Now before you blame the humans plenty of oppressed minorities have fostered a culture of resentment, rebellion, and a drive to get out of their rut, so while they are to blame for the oppressive environment the elves are responsible for how they've responded to it.

Xilizhra wrote...

Because such a society, if it repeats the isolationist policies of the past, is doomed to the same fate as Arlathan and the Dales.

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality if they could get a new society to work.

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does.  Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

[Xilizhra]

I thought humans were "plaguebearers" to the elves? And that a society along with humans would be "death" to the little folk.

You don't accept this premise to begin with, so for the sake of argument, I'll assume that the Quickening can't be fixed.