394 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yes because the elves don't aspire to those qualities, so they don't share those stories. Unless you're arguing that no elf in the Denerim Alienage ever heard of Garahel or the Night Elves.

Certainly I have no proof that any did. In fact, I didn't even know about the Night Elves until just now, and still don't know who they were.

Again that forgives why they didn't act, not that they didn't want to. It's fine to acknowledge that they can't stop Vaughn but they give the impression most of them wouldn't even bother to try if they could. That's the culture they've bred, one of submission and silent acceptance of their lot. Now before you blame the humans plenty of oppressed minorities have fostered a culture of resentment, rebellion, and a drive to get out of their rut, so while they are to blame for the oppressive environment the elves are responsible for how they've responded to it.

The elves didn't adapt perfectly, but it's first and foremost the fault of the humans.

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does. Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

If immortality can be regained, it must be taken. If not, that must be ascertained.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The sacking was before the war.

So the Dalish were totally isolationist for hundreds of years until they decided to just start a war for no reason? I find this unlikely.

That's a pretty unreasonable statement. It's also not true.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does. Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

If immortality can be regained, it must be taken. If not, that must be ascertained.

There is no 'must' about it.

Moreover, there are other avenues to immortality, proven alternatives, than segretation and racial suprimicism.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It doesn't have to, but it'd give a major boost to the elves' equality.

That wouldn't be equality. Equality is something that can only exist in a multi-component population. An elven state isn't equal: it's monopolar.

I may have been unclear. I was more ferring to them building a new society along with humans if the mage war causes enough damage to it, or at least opening that as a possibility. A unified Dalish state could work as well.

The Dalish are not an equal society.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does. Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

If immortality can be regained, it must be taken. If not, that must be ascertained.

There is no 'must' about it.

Moreover, there are other avenues to immortality, proven alternatives, than segretation and racial suprimicism.

I didn't think you'd advocate for the mass use of blood magic, but... hmmm. The trouble is that if that was practical, I think Tevinter would have done it by now, unless it genuinely requires more advances in magical study to achieve.

[Elvis_Mazur]

A localized rebellion is more likely to happen. A rebellion that involves every city elf and possibly dalish would require unification between all those citizens, and you have to consider not every elf would be willing to fight due to a possible war and heavy losses. But, if the player can participate in a battle that would stir the other elves from everywhere else (like what happened in Kirkwall)... that works too, I think.

Although, IMO, that looks like the type of content that would be central to the plot of the game, and since the devs are so focused in the Templars vs Mages conflict, I don't think it will happen soon.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does. Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

If immortality can be regained, it must be taken. If not, that must be ascertained.

There is no 'must' about it.

Moreover, there are other avenues to immortality, proven alternatives, than segretation and racial suprimicism.

I didn't think you'd advocate for the mass use of blood magic, but... hmmm.

I'm not. The only one advocating genocide here has been you.

Edit: And the point I was also going to make is that those blood magic rituals we've seen evidence of included far fewer deaths than outright genocide.

The trouble is that if that was practical, I think Tevinter would have done it by now, unless it genuinely requires more advances in magical study to achieve.

Evlish immortality isn't practical either. That hasn't stopped you.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:39 .

[DPSSOC]

Faerunner wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
"It doesn't always stick"?

Try "it never sticks."

Being good, obedient, helpful little slaves citizens and soldiers has not worked. Fighting in Andraste's army has not worked. Defeating the Fourth (and possibly Fifth) Blight has not worked. Fighting in Loghain's Army has not worked. Saving human freedom and human lives has not worked. Your method has not worked.

We see no signs of Elven soldiers in any standing army, given how desperate we've seen armies for soldiers I doubt it's entirely prejudice on their part.

Then what is?

 
Elves.  Don't.  Enlist.  An army desperate for soldiers isn't going to turn away people based on race, and we've seen desperate, so while yes part of the problem is prejudice it's also clear the elves aren't really stepping forward.

Faerunner wrote...
Where have I heard this scenario before...? Oh, right. We've seen parallels to the way humans treat elves to the way casted dwarves treat casteless dwarves. (The game flat out compares the two all the time.) The noble and warrior caste has been staving off the darkspawn for centuries and the combination of death and sterility from such endless fighting has left them desperate for more soldiers... yet they refuse to allow the casteless even a chance to bear arms even with certain extinction looming other their heads. The narration makes it very clear that it is prejudice more than any sound reasoning. 

But they did.  In the Dwarven ruin we find in Awakening it shows that when things got truly desperate the Dwarves did finally allow the casteless to serve and even honoured their service with a memorial.

Faerunner wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change. Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population... You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.

And what chance do they have to act on these examples as they continue to be prevented opportunities to prove themselves in large numbers even after a few individuals prove their valuable? By your own admission, armies and Wardens almost never recruit elves.

 
I admitted no such thing.  The Wardens recruit a number of elves, and while armies don't I put that forward as equal parts racial prejudice and the elves just not jumping at the opportunity.  Garahel, the Night Elves, an Elf Warden, etc. create small windows of opportunity for the elves to rush in and show, enmasse, what they can do.  Individuals demonstrate ability, the masses demonstrate desire.  That's the problem the elves have, no matter how many elven heroes come up it accomplishes nothing if the general populace refuses to act on it.

Faerunner wrote...
The few that do "slip through the cracks" and get recruited and perform well are treated as exceptions to the rule instead possible examples of the rule.

 
Again because they are exceptions, the elvish population does not extol the values these heroes represent, they don't praise heroism they praise flying under the radar.

[Xilizhra]

Here's what I have to wonder.

If you're dismissing the possibility of humans stopping being racist idiots, what makes it more likely that city elves will stop exhibiting the cultural traits that you dislike? Why is it on the elves in particular? Is it really more likely?

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again that forgives why they didn't act, not that they didn't want to. It's fine to acknowledge that they can't stop Vaughn but they give the impression most of them wouldn't even bother to try if they could. That's the culture they've bred, one of submission and silent acceptance of their lot. Now before you blame the humans plenty of oppressed minorities have fostered a culture of resentment, rebellion, and a drive to get out of their rut, so while they are to blame for the oppressive environment the elves are responsible for how they've responded to it.

The elves didn't adapt perfectly, but it's first and foremost the fault of the humans.

Well go far enough back and it gets muddy but sure.

Xilizhra wrote...

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does. Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

If immortality can be regained, it must be taken. If not, that must be ascertained.

Then bring on Dales 2.0

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's what I have to wonder.

If you're dismissing the possibility of humans stopping being racist idiots, what makes it more likely that city elves will stop exhibiting the cultural traits that you dislike? Why is it on the elves in particular? Is it really more likely?

More likely to be successful? Yes: the downtrodden can overcome if they do not cease, but those who don't apply the effort can never be raised up past themselves.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's what I have to wonder.

If you're dismissing the possibility of humans stopping being racist idiots, what makes it more likely that city elves will stop exhibiting the cultural traits that you dislike? Why is it on the elves in particular? Is it really more likely?

Because the elves have something to gain from changing, the humans do not.  Same reason people didn't wait on the slave owners to abolish slavery or the ruling powers to enstate democracy.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's what I have to wonder.

If you're dismissing the possibility of humans stopping being racist idiots, what makes it more likely that city elves will stop exhibiting the cultural traits that you dislike? Why is it on the elves in particular? Is it really more likely?

Because the elves have something to gain from changing, the humans do not.  Same reason people didn't wait on the slave owners to abolish slavery or the ruling powers to enstate democracy.

Then, as in those cases, the humans must be overthrown, or at the least cast down by some friendlier power.

[DPSSOC]

Faerunner wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes because the elves don't aspire to those qualities, so they don't share those stories.  Unless you're arguing that no elf in the Denerim Alienage ever heard of Garahel or the Night Elves.

When you see elven children playing "Heroes and Humans" in the City Elf Origin, and ask them why they don't pretend to be elven heroes, the children ask "Do you know of any elven heroes?" What's telling is neither the protagonist nor their cousin is allowed so say, "Sure I do!" or "There's Shartan, Garahel, the Night Elves of Loghain's Army..." You can only to admit you don't know any, or blatantly lie and make up fictional heroes off the top of your head.

I'd say that's a pretty good indication that most city elves don't even know of Shartan, Garahel, or the Night Elves' existence.

Ok the City Elves have the same story telling culture as the Dalish, they pass history down amongst themselves.  Unles you're going to argue that no elf in the entire history of the Denerim Alienage, has ever heard of Garahel, Shartan, or the Night Elves the reason for ignorance is because the ELVES choose not to share those stories.

Faerunner wrote...

Again that forgives why they didn't act, not that they didn't want to.  It's fine to acknowledge that they can't stop Vaughn but they give the impression most of them wouldn't even bother to try if they could.  That's the culture they've bred, one of submission and silent acceptance of their lot.  Now before you blame the humans plenty of oppressed minorities have fostered a culture of resentment, rebellion, and a drive to get out of their rut, so while they are to blame for the oppressive environment the elves are responsible for how they've responded to it.

Because asking meekly for better treatment always works like a charm, right?

Reread the italicized.  Some minorities respond to oppression with drive, passion, and fire the City Elves have decided to respond with submission and timidity.

Faerunner wrote...

If the elves maintain their obsession with regaining immortality yes it does.  Like I said the only real option for peaceful co-existence in the long term is if the elves just accept their mortality and move on, as long as they millitantly isolate themselves from humans the wars are just going to keep happening.

Or maybe humans can also learn to back off and leave the elves alone, instead of constantly trying to butt into their kingdoms and their lives and then forcefully subjugate them when the elves say "please go away" or even "I'm going over there, please don't follow."

Except the Dalish have never been that civil.  It's never been, "Please leave us alone," it's "Leave us alone or we'll kill you."  The Elves have responded to every olive branch with hostility and violence, the humans are under no obligation to respond differently.  Regardless eventually expansion of both cultures is going to demand that they compete over the same space, it's inevitable unless the elves can travel to a completely different plane of existence.

Xilizhra wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's what I have to wonder.

If you're dismissing the possibility of humans stopping being racist idiots, what makes it more likely that city elves will stop exhibiting the cultural traits that you dislike? Why is it on the elves in particular? Is it really more likely?

Because the elves have something to gain from changing, the humans do not. Same reason people didn't wait on the slave owners to abolish slavery or the ruling powers to enstate democracy.

Then, as in those cases, the humans must be overthrown, or at the least cast down by some friendlier power.

Or not. Last I checked the slaves are free with equal rights and whitey's still in power. You can force or encourage change without tearing down the established order.

[Xilizhra]

Or not. Last I checked the slaves are free with equal rights and whitey's still in power. You can force or encourage change without tearing down the established order.

Britain, however, is no longer in power over the United States, which I suspected was your second example. Also, the Civil War did tear down most of the established order. People tried to build it back up again and it went bad for a while, but it was never really the same and ultimately collapsed. The violent part, however, was necessary to get black people integrated, which city elves aren't sufficiently yet.

[dragonflight288]

Or not. Last I checked the slaves are free with equal rights and whitey's still in power. You can force or encourage change without tearing down the established order.

And the current president of the united states is black. Many Americans question and dislike his policies, and for that they're called racists.

[Xilizhra]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or not. Last I checked the slaves are free with equal rights and whitey's still in power. You can force or encourage change without tearing down the established order.

And the current president of the united states is black. Many Americans question and dislike his policies, and for that they're called racists.

Um, the only ones I've heard called racist are the ones who call him "Obongo" and the like. And they, well, are.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves aren't under any obligation to capitulate on their beliefs simply because humans wish it was otherwise. And sending templars into their territory because they refused to convert is hardly "peaceful."

I'm talking the 300 years they ruled over the land, and not even their refusal to convert.  The Dwarves refuse to convert to the Chantry's religion and they don't have any troubles, because they're otherwise welcoming.  The Elves for 300 years drove off or killed anyone extending an olive branch to them; traders, diplomats, priests, etc. all of them were given the boot.  Like I said isolation isn't a viable option, it never has been, and the Dalish refusal to get that is no one's fault but their own.

The dwarves have lyrium, which only they can handle safely. Let's not pretend the two situations are the same.

And who claims the elves from the Dales killed such people? And I think it's absurd that some people on this thread are seriously blaming the elves because they wanted to live in their kingdom on their own terms. I guess the Qunari had every right to invade Thedas because humanity wouldn't live on their terms, or submit to the Qun like they wanted (across Thedas).

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The City Elf version is the same as the Chantry/Orlesian version. The City Elves barely remember any of their own history, their gods, or their culture. They worship a human god, get married by the Chantry, and tell the same historical account that the Chantry does.

Except it's not the same, not exactly, and varies in the fine details.  If anyone had a reason to maintain the elves were attacked unprovoked by humans it's the ones suffering under their thumb, and they don't.

With the exception of the elven perspective, it's exactly the same fable as told by the Andrastian Chantry. And considering they live at the mercy of humans, are you serious? They are the last people to tell a story that painted the Chantry poorly.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves of the Dales who had the audacity to want their own homeland and culture after humans destroyed their original kingdom and enslaved them, or the city elves who still lived in poverty and in ghettos despite Garahel's actions in the Fourth Blight?

 
Yes the elves who did nothing but fall back on old behaviours of failure.  The Dales knew what happened the last time the elves isolated themselves from humans, they were enslaved.  So rather than try to maintain relations with the humans, much as the Dwarves do, they chose to follow a policy that is guaranteed to breed hostility, militaristic isolation.  Big shock they ended up in a war and, bigger shock, they lost.  What did they learn from it?  Absolutely nothing.

Same with the City Elves, nobody is forcing them to live in the Alienage, after Garahel's defeat of the Archdemon or Loghain's Night Elves there was a brief period when humans thought of them as more than servants, more than just wordy animals, and they could have leapt on that period to push into other fields.  They could have joined the military, or become apprentices in various crafts because people were willing, if only briefly, to give them a chance.  They didn't, they said, "Hey look how great we are." and went back to business as usual.

The elves helped free humanity from slavery; they didn't need to abide by any laws but their own. They didn't need to submit to human hosts, permit travelers, or surrender their religious beliefs. And in case you forgot in the midst of blaming the elves for having the gall to have their own culture and wanting to be left alone, Orlais is an invader. They conquer their neighbors.

And the elves live in the Alienage because they are impoverished, or because the elves who try to move out are burned out of their homes.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blaming the elves for not changing how the humans rule over them makes no sense. The impoverished and powerless elves aren't in a position to change the status quo.

I can blame them for not trying.  The Elves have never capitalized on having the attention and goodwill of those in positions to make things better for them, they have no one to blame for that but themselves.  To draw a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement it didn't end with Rosa Parks, there was a lot of work to do and others had to get involved and follow her example or make their own.  If blacks at the time had responded the way the Elves do in DA Rosa Parks would have just been a woman with a bad attitude.

The humans purge Alienages when they get "unruly" about something, like their women being kidnapped and gang-raped; an orphanage of children were murdered in Denerim as a result of that purge; let's not pretend this situation is the same as the civil rights movement.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The City Elves were impoverished and powerless, and the Dalish refuse to convert to the Chantry. A couple of ridiculous dialogue examples from you doesn't change the reality of the situation when history has shown that elves will rise to the challenge (like the Night Elves), but that the status quo remains.

Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change.  Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population.  Again if Rosa Parks had been alone, if nobody had stood behind her, nothing would have changed, and it would be ridiculous to complain about that fact.  You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.

If we look at the example of the elven Banns, the humans murder Bann Shianni, drive away Bann Soris, and revolt at Warden Bann when things improve for the elves in Denerim. And no new elven Banns replace Shianni or Soris. It's not as simple as you seem to think it is.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The dwarves have lyrium, which only they can handle safely. Let's not pretend the two situations are the same.

And who claims the elves from the Dales killed such people? And I think it's absurd that some people on this thread are seriously blaming the elves because they wanted to live in their kingdom on their own terms. I guess the Qunari had every right to invade Thedas because humanity wouldn't live on their terms, or submit to the Qun like they wanted (across Thedas).

The dwarves are willing to make certain concessions to cultivate good relations with the migthy Chantry. One is reserving the trade of lyrium for their templars and another is allowing the founding of a Chantry in Orzammar. The elves chose unresonable isolationism because of some dubious "immortality". As Loghain would say: "We must attend to reality."

No one here has said that the elves of the Dales should surrender their culture. We simply understand that since the elves refused any and all opportunities of making friends of their neighbours, they should not cry "Foul" when they become enemies instead.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:16 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

The dwarves are willing to make certain concessions to cultivate good relations with the mighty Chantry.

The dwarves reserve a small amount of lyrium for the surface trade, and Brother Burkel is only permitted to create a Chantry if The Warden argues on his behalf.

And no matter how you spin it, Orlais conquers others nations. They have in the past, and they seem to be continuing the tradition with the debate over whether they will attempt to reclaim their neighbor Ferelden in the future.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
I'm talking the 300 years they ruled over the land, and not even their refusal to convert.  The Dwarves refuse to convert to the Chantry's religion and they don't have any troubles, because they're otherwise welcoming.  The Elves for 300 years drove off or killed anyone extending an olive branch to them; traders, diplomats, priests, etc. all of them were given the boot.  Like I said isolation isn't a viable option, it never has been, and the Dalish refusal to get that is no one's fault but their own.[/quote]

The dwarves have lyrium, which only they can handle safely. Let's not pretend the two situations are the same.

And who claims the elves from the Dales killed such people? And I think it's absurd that some people on this thread are seriously blaming the elves because they wanted to live in their kingdom on their own terms. I guess the Qunari had every right to invade Thedas because humanity wouldn't live on their terms, or submit to the Qun like they wanted (across Thedas).[/quote]

Never have I suggested the Elves must live as the humans do or according to their whims, the Dwarves do fine not abiding by either, but they do have to come to some arrangement.  The elves of the Dales never tried they just closed themselves off and expected people to leave them alone.  Just like Arlathan shut itself off and expected people to leave them alone.  Nobody's blaming the elves for wanting to live on their terms, we're blaming them for how they decided to deal with their neighbours.

As for the elves killing people I'm aware of 6 instances of humans encountering the Dalish.
1) Grey Warden who knows the Keeper is greeted peacefully.
2) 3 guys running for their lives stumble upon them, threatened with death and/or murdered
3) Grey Warden approaches a clan to request they honor a treaty, threatened with death.
4) Hawke and 3 friends approach Dalish clan to return amulet, threatened with death
5) Scholar hoping to learn of the Dalish, is informed that had he run into any Dalish other than the one he did and he'd probably be killed.
6) Maric and Loghain, handed over to Flemmeth with the expectation of certain death.

Can't imagine what would make me think the elves would kill intruders.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Except it's not the same, not exactly, and varies in the fine details.  If anyone had a reason to maintain the elves were attacked unprovoked by humans it's the ones suffering under their thumb, and they don't.[/quote]

With the exception of the elven perspective, it's exactly the same fable as told by the Andrastian Chantry. And considering they live at the mercy of humans, are you serious? They are the last people to tell a story that painted the Chantry poorly.[/quote]

Except the Chantry didn't get involved in the war until later, it was Orlais who started the war if that's the side you're taking.  Furthermore the City Elf version is one that they circulate amongst themselves, the humans are probably largely ignorant of it.  It could say the war was started by giant trolls made of cheese for all they know.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Yes the elves who did nothing but fall back on old behaviours of failure.  The Dales knew what happened the last time the elves isolated themselves from humans, they were enslaved.  So rather than try to maintain relations with the humans, much as the Dwarves do, they chose to follow a policy that is guaranteed to breed hostility, militaristic isolation.  Big shock they ended up in a war and, bigger shock, they lost.  What did they learn from it?  Absolutely nothing.

Same with the City Elves, nobody is forcing them to live in the Alienage, after Garahel's defeat of the Archdemon or Loghain's Night Elves there was a brief period when humans thought of them as more than servants, more than just wordy animals, and they could have leapt on that period to push into other fields.  They could have joined the military, or become apprentices in various crafts because people were willing, if only briefly, to give them a chance.  They didn't, they said, "Hey look how great we are." and went back to business as usual.[/quote]

The elves helped free humanity from slavery; they didn't need to abide by any laws but their own. They didn't need to submit to human hosts, permit travelers, or surrender their religious beliefs.[/quote]
 
You're absolutely right, they do however have to find a way to live peacefully with their neighbours or, big shock, wars happen.  Here's a little experiment for you, next time you move to a new neighbourhood tell everyone who comes to your door to ****** off, if they don't leave immediately physically remove them from your property and threaten to kill them.  Then come back here and tell me how long it takes for your neighbours to have a serious problem with you.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
And in case you forgot in the midst of blaming the elves for having the gall to have their own culture and wanting to be left alone, Orlais is an invader. They conquer their neighbors.[/quote]

Your point being?  Orlais is an expansionist empire so they can't be attacked?  Every war they're in has to be started by them?  It's completely impossible for a nation of violent, isolationist, racist pricks with a superiority complex to launch an attack against a neighbouring nation that's been attempting to send envoys?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
And the elves live in the Alienage because they are impoverished, or because the elves who try to move out are burned out of their homes.[/quote]

Sounds like the treatment of a lot of minorities before they receive equal rights.  Guess how many of them got anywhere by sheltering themselves in ghettos.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
I can blame them for not trying.  The Elves have never capitalized on having the attention and goodwill of those in positions to make things better for them, they have no one to blame for that but themselves.  To draw a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement it didn't end with Rosa Parks, there was a lot of work to do and others had to get involved and follow her example or make their own.  If blacks at the time had responded the way the Elves do in DA Rosa Parks would have just been a woman with a bad attitude.[/quote]

The humans purge Alienages when they get "unruly" about something, like their women being kidnapped and gang-raped; an orphanage of children were murdered in Denerim as a result of that purge; let's not pretend this situation is the same as the civil rights movement.[/quote]

You're right it isn't, it's closer to the post abolition environment.  I brought up Rosa Parks because it's an event most people are familliar with as well as the events that followed.  Social change, in any period, cannot be won by individuals.  It wasn't Washington or any of the Founding Fathers that made the revolution work it was the people at their back.  Elves who distinguish themselves, who earn the respect of humans at large, have no one, they act alone and as such are, and always will be, viewed as outliers, that one in a million that will never be seen again in our lifetime.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change.  Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population.  Again if Rosa Parks had been alone, if nobody had stood behind her, nothing would have changed, and it would be ridiculous to complain about that fact.  You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.[/quote]

If we look at the example of the elven Banns, the humans murder Bann Shianni, drive away Bann Soris, and revolt at Warden Bann when things improve for the elves in Denerim. And no new elven Banns replace Shianni or Soris. It's not as simple as you seem to think it is.[/quote]

I never said it'd be simple, nothing worth doing ever is, but for the elves to sit back and do nothing and complain that no progress is made is almost stupid enough to justify their treatment.  I'll have to look up those slides for details but I'd put money on the fact that none of the Alienage population raised a finger to defend either of them.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The dwarves reserve a small amount of lyrium for the surface trade, and Brother Burkel is only permitted to create a Chantry if The Warden argues on his behalf.

Concessions still.

And no matter how you spin it, Orlais conquers others nations. They have in the past, and they seem to be continuing the tradition with the debate over whether they will attempt to reclaim their neighbor Ferelden in the future.

All the more reason to not risk angering them.
And it is still completely plausible the elves started the war.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Concessions still.

If the dwarves are giving a small portion of their lyrium, it doesn't seem to be that much of a sacrifice for them. And since The Warden has to argue with the Shaperate about allowing Brother Burkel to open the Chantry, it has nothing to do with Orzammar capitulating to the Andrastian Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

All the more reason not to risk angering them.

Considering all Ferelden and Nevarra did was exist for Orlais to invade and conquer them, I don't see why you keep pushing this. Orlais is an expansionist empire; if they have invaded a plethora of nations, then I don't see why the Dales would be any different.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I think people should stop using the dwarves as an example.

The dwarves have lyrium. They are the only ones who can mine it without dying or going insane. That is the only thing keeping the humans from invading or invoking an Exalted March. That's their arrangement, one that the Dalish cannot or ever have with the humanity. That's the dwarves advantage. Were it not for the lyrium they'd probably be in a similiar boat, since they are isolated as well, especially if Harrowmont is made king (and further isolates them by restricting trade).