394 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If the dwarves are giving a small portion of their lyrium, it doesn't seem to be that much of a sacrifice for them. And since The Warden has to argue with the Shaperate about allowing Brother Burkel to open the Chantry, it has nothing to do with Orzammar capitulating to the Andrastian Chantry.

We don't know the percentage of lyrium that is traded. We do know that while the dwarves engage in trade with any merchant, lyrium trade is reserved for the Chantry.
It has everything to do with cultivating good relations. Pick the intimidate option with the Shaperate "Would you rather wait for the templars to convert you?" and he will admit that he had pondered on this very issue before. Who helped him decide does not affect the reason why he finally agreed.

Considering all Ferelden and Nevarra did was exist for Orlais to invade and conquer them, I don't see why you keep pushing this. Orlais is an expansionist empire; if they have invaded a plethora of nations, then I don't see why the Dales would be any different.

Doing everything in your power to antagonize the neighboring expansionist empire is not smart governing. The elves could have engaged in diplomacy while still keeping their borders secure just in case Orlais decided to expand.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

Never have I suggested the Elves must live as the humans so or according to their whims, the Dwarves do fine not abiding by either, but they do have to come to some arrangment.

The dwarves have a monopoly on lyrium, so I don't see why you keep referencing them as though it's a valid comparison; it isn't. The elves lived on the surface, the dwarves live in the Deep Roads and have to deal with the darkspawn.

And their neighbors are invaders, so forgive me for thinking that their policy of living in separation from humanity wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

Also, thank you for acknowledging that the bit you referenced about the elves of the Dales killing missionaries and the like was simply your imagination at work.

DPSSOC wrote...

Except the Chantry didn't get involved in the war until later.

Not according to the Dalish, who say the templars invaded their sovereign territory as a result of the elves kicking out the Chantry missionaries. There are two sides to the fall of the Dales.

DPSSOC wrote...

You're absolutely right, they do however have to find a way to live peacefully with their neighbors or, big shock, wars happens.

When their neighbors are invaders who have conquered since the inception of their history, I doubt it matters what the elves do. Wanting to live on their own, and their Emerald Knights preventing the humans from entering, doesn't seem that hostile to me. Then again, Orlais conquered Nevarra after helping them in the Third Blight, and invaded Ferelden because it was next door, so both serve to provide examples of how Orlais will invade foreign lands simply because they can.

DPSSOC wrote...

Every war they're in has to be started by them?

I'm sure the conquests of Ferelden and Nevarra can provide you with an answer to that question. So can the Dalish Warden's codex that addresses that this is precisely what the Dalish claim had happened to the Dales.

DPSSOC wrote...

Sounds like the treatment of a lot of minorities before they received equal rights. Guess how many of them got anywhere by sheltering themselves in ghettos.

Is this a serious retort? I guess you expect the elves to live in the clouds? How are elves supposed to live among humans when the humans burn down their homes and try to murder them if they move outside of the Alienage?

DPSSOC wrote...

Elves who distinguish themselves, who earn the respect of humans at large, have no one, they act alone and as such are, and always will be, viewed as outliers, that one in a million that will never be seen again in our lifetime.

If your argument was accurate, the Night Elves helping Loghain topple the Orlesian Empire should have meant something, instead of having everything resort to the status quo when all was said and done. A plethora of elves, aiding in the fight to topple tyranny, and nothing changed for the elves who lived in Ferelden.

DPSSOC wrote...

I never said it'd be simple, nothing worth doing ever is, but for elves to sit back and do nothing and complain that no progress is made is stupid enough to justify their treatment.

Shartan and his armies, the Warden Garahel, and the Night Elves didn't sit back and do nothing, they acted and accomplished great tasks. And what was the result? Nomadic Dalish elves who are hunted by the templars, and impoverished and powerless city elves who have no representation on the royal court and can be murdered in purges that are legal by law.

DPSSOC wrote...

I'll have to look up those slides for details but I'd put money on the fact that none of the Alienage population raised a finger to defend either of them.

You honestly think the elves would do nothing to stop a murder? There are people willing to take a stand; the elves who help in the City Elf Origin, and the riots over the lack of food during a solo-Queen Anora's rule should attest to the fact that there are elves who won't let humans simply walk all over them and discard them. If they were all as weak as you seem to think, Hawke never would have discovered that Kelder was murdering elven children in Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

We don't known the percentage of lyrium that is traded.

It's mentioned in the codex, and in the narrative, that it's only a small percentage. The majority is for the dwarves themselves.

MisterJB wrote...

It has everything to do with cultivating good relations.

It has everything to do with The Warden intimidating the Shaperate, and nothing to do with either the Chantry or the templars pushing the issue. You can try to twist this into as many knots as you'd like, but doesn't change the fact that The Warden factors into Brother Burkel being able to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If it had to do with the Chantry or the templars, then the Chantry would open regardless of The Warden's actions, instead of only opening if The Warden persuades or intimidates the Shaperate into capitulating on the issue.

MisterJB wrote...

Doing everything in your power to antagonize the neighboring expansionist empire is not smart governing.

Living on their own terms, and refusing to let humans into their sovereign nation, isn't antagonizing anyone. And Orlais doesn't need a reason to invade - they simply conquer.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It has everything to do with The Warden intimidating the Shaperate, and nothing to do with either the Chantry or the templars pushing the issue. You can try to twist this into as many knots as you'd like, but doesn't change the fact that The Warden factors into Brother Burkel being able to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If it had to do with the Chantry or the templars, then the Chantry would open regardless of The Warden's actions, instead of only opening if The Warden persuades or intimidates the Shaperate into capitulating on the issue.

What you are suggesting is that the Shaperate's action of allowing the opening of a chantry in an attempt to cultivate good relations with the Chantry has nothing to do with the Chantry simply because the Warden helped him make his mind.
This is illogical.

Living on their own terms, and refusing to let humans into their sovereign nation, isn't antagonizing anyone. And Orlais doesn't need a reason to invade - they simply conquer.

Refusing any attempts at peaceful coexistance while threatening those who even come near your borders and attacking a human town is more than enough to antagonize your neighbors.

[Xilizhra]

I never said it'd be simple, nothing worth doing ever is, but for the elves to sit back and do nothing and complain that no progress is made is almost stupid enough to justify their treatment. I'll have to look up those slides for details but I'd put money on the fact that none of the Alienage population raised a finger to defend either of them.

There were riots afterward if not during that led to Anora, if she's in charge, murdering them all. So... yeah. The elves may need to do more, but they need... quite frankly, they need Anders. Or someone like him. Someone who can show without a doubt that the existing power structure can be defied and defeated. A symbol of hope.

Refusing any attempts at peaceful coexistance while threatening those
who even come near your borders and attacking a human town is more than
enough to antagonize your neighbors.

That is peaceful coexistence, just with strict terms of border respect. The elves aren't demanding more land or goods from Orlais, they only want to be left alone. As for the human town, I find it incredibly unlikely that the elves would attack first, knowing that it would probably start another war, so it strikes me as a self-serving lie cooked up by the Chantry/Orlais.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:44 .

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Never have I suggested the Elves must live as the humans so or according to their whims, the Dwarves do fine not abiding by either, but they do have to come to some arrangment. [/quote]

The dwarves have a monopoly on lyrium, so I don't see why you keep referencing them as though it's a valid comparison; it isn't. The elves lived on the surface, the dwarves live in the Deep Roads and have to deal with the darkspawn. [/quote]

What's your point?  The humans could attempt to invade and force the Dwarves to mine lyrium for them, they don't, even the Imperium the most expansionist, controlling, slaving Empire in Thedas, didn't pick that fight.  There's a reason for that beyond their ability to mine lyrium and it's good relations.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, thank you for acknowledging that the bit you referenced about the elves of the Dales killing missionaries and the like was simply your imagination at work.[/quote]

Based entirely on their established behaviour.\\

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

Except the Chantry didn't get involved in the war until later. [/quote]

Not according to the Dalish, who say the templars invaded their sovereign territory as a result of the elves kicking out the Chantry missionaries. There are two sides to the fall of the Dales.[/quote]

So do I accept the Dalish telling which offers no details at all, is based on an oral history and heavily biased, or the Orlesian telling which offers explicit details on the events leading up to the war, that were written down, and heavily biased.  Hmm tough call.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

You're absolutely right, they do however have to find a way to live peacefully with their neighbors or, big shock, wars happens. [/quote]

When their neighbors are invaders who have conquered since the inception of their history, I doubt it matters what the elves do. Wanting to live on their own, and their Emerald Knights preventing the humans from entering, doesn't seem that hostile to me.[/quote]

Yes because nothing says friendly like driving off attempts at peaceful contact and maintaining an elite military force on your border.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Every war they're in has to be started by them? [/quote]

I'm sure the conquests of Ferelden and Nevarra can provide you with an answer to that question. So can the Dalish Warden's codex that addresses that this is precisely what the Dalish claim had happened to the Dales.[/quote]

No they very vaguely state that missionaries were sent and later Templars.  They offer no details at all meaning they're A) hiding something, or very bad at maintaing accurate records of their history.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Sounds like the treatment of a lot of minorities before they received equal rights. Guess how many of them got anywhere by sheltering themselves in ghettos. [/quote]

Is this a serious retort? I guess you expect the elves to live in the clouds? How are elves supposed to live among humans when the humans burn down their homes and try to murder them if they move outside of the Alienage?[/quote]

Same way other minorities have dealt with similar treatment in the past.  You keep at it, keep pushing, or you give up and accept the way things are.  Those are the options.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Elves who distinguish themselves, who earn the respect of humans at large, have no one, they act alone and as such are, and always will be, viewed as outliers, that one in a million that will never be seen again in our lifetime. [/quote]

If your argument was accurate, the Night Elves helping Loghain topple the Orlesian Empire should have meant something, instead of having everything resort to the status quo when all was said and done. A plethora of elves, aiding in the fight to topple tyranny, and nothing changed for the elves who lived in Ferelden.[/quote]

It did mean something, it created the same window of opportunity that Garahel and Shartan did, and again no other elves took advantage of the opening.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
I never said it'd be simple, nothing worth doing ever is, but for elves to sit back and do nothing and complain that no progress is made is stupid enough to justify their treatment. [/quote]

Shartan and his armies, the Warden Garahel, and the Night Elves didn't sit back and do nothing, they acted and accomplished great tasks. And what was the result? Nomadic Dalish elves who are hunted by the templars, and impoverished and powerless city elves who have no representation on the royal court and can be murdered in purges that are legal by law.[/quote]

Because as I've stated the exceptional behaviour of some of the population is not enough to secure change for all of it.  The majority of the population has to demonstrate that they at least aspire to live up to these examples and that's just not the case.  Again we see how the City Elves respond to elves trying to stand out, they quickly beat them down.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
I'll have to look up those slides for details but I'd put money on the fact that none of the Alienage population raised a finger to defend either of them. [/quote]

You honestly think the elves would do nothing to stop a murder? There are people willing to take a stand; the elves who help in the City Elf Origin, and the riots over the lack of food during a solo-Queen Anora's rule should attest to the fact that there are elves who won't let humans simply walk all over them and discard them. If they were all as weak as you seem to think, Hawke never would have discovered that Kelder was murdering elven children in Kirkwall.[/quote]

You mean those two elves who made an effort to rescue their women, or the rest of the alienage the berates them if they make it back?  The riots and Kelder are personal instances.  In the riots the elves need to act or they'll starve, and Hawke learns of Kelder because a father is afraid for his daughter.  The City elves regularly demonstrate that the group won't step up for the individuals.  Nobody tries to save the elves from Vaughn except their grooms, and nobody praises them for bringing the women back.  Until the elves stand together behind individuals with the courage and conviction to step up they're not going anywhere.

[dragonflight288]

What's your point? The humans could attempt to invade and force the Dwarves to mine lyrium for them, they don't, even the Imperium the most expansionist, controlling, slaving Empire in Thedas, didn't pick that fight. There's a reason for that beyond their ability to mine lyrium and it's good relations.

Or a near impenetrable defense and an empire that was larger than Tevinter's was, only below the surface.

[Xilizhra]

I think it may be summed up as: the humans are wholly at fault for being racist, religiously bigoted ****s and have been ever since Tevinter/Arlathan, but the elves need to adopt new tactics to win against them. Some sort of demonstrated hope that the humans can actually be defeated would, I believe, be quite helpful. All the examples of elves working with humans seem to have done nothing to galvanize the remaining elves, however, which makes me wonder if something more antagonistic may not be useful.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

What's your point? The humans could attempt to invade and force the Dwarves to mine lyrium for them, they don't, even the Imperium the most expansionist, controlling, slaving Empire in Thedas, didn't pick that fight. There's a reason for that beyond their ability to mine lyrium and it's good relations.

Or a near impenetrable defense and an empire that was larger than Tevinter's was, only below the surface.

Perhaps though Kal Sharok's (i think) reaction to a Thaig harbouring elves seemd to suggest that Tevinter could bring a considerable fight to them, but they don't.  If you're confident you have a nearly impenetrable defense you generally don't worry about making people angry (see the story of Troy).

[MisterJB]

No, I think the problem is that the elves are an incredibly racist and hostile people that would sooner go extinct than attempt to live with the lesser races they consider to be "children". They have been like this since Arlathan and don't show any sign of changing.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:59 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

No, I think the problem is that the elves are an incredibly racist and hostile people that would sooner go extinct than attempt to live with the lesser races they consider to be "children". They have been like this since Arlathan and don't show any sign of changing.

Due to constant oppression and harrassment by the at least equally (probably moreso) racist and hostile human population. The elves have been kicked around unwarrantedly by humans for centuries since the last screwover, and I think millennia overall.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I never said it'd be simple, nothing worth doing ever is, but for the elves to sit back and do nothing and complain that no progress is made is almost stupid enough to justify their treatment. I'll have to look up those slides for details but I'd put money on the fact that none of the Alienage population raised a finger to defend either of them.

There were riots afterward if not during that led to Anora, if she's in charge, murdering them all. So... yeah. The elves may need to do more, but they need... quite frankly, they need Anders. Or someone like him.

 
Somebody who'll murder people only tangentially related to the conflict and completely unrelated to the specific grievances the elves have?  Ok if that's how you want to go with it.

Xilizhra wrote...
Someone who can show without a doubt that the existing power structure can be defied and defeated. A symbol of hope.

Ok except unlike Anders the elves don't have a universal power structure to contend with.  It also runs into the problem that there's no guarantee the new power structure will be any better, and a healthy precedent that it will in fact be worse.

Xilizhra wrote...

Refusing any attempts at peaceful coexistance while threatening those
who even come near your borders and attacking a human town is more than
enough to antagonize your neighbors.

That is peaceful coexistence, just with strict terms of border respect. The elves aren't demanding more land or goods from Orlais, they only want to be left alone. As for the human town, I find it incredibly unlikely that the elves would attack first, knowing that it would probably start another war, so it strikes me as a self-serving lie cooked up by the Chantry/Orlais.

Again you seem to be ignoring how little it takes to provoke the Dalish to violence, and these are the modern Dalish who don't have anywhere near the military might they had in the Dales.  The Dalish will threaten you for looking at them too much, and we're expected to assume they wouldn't attack a border village over something petty?  Or maybe it wasn't petty, maybe there was a really good reason to attack that village, but it remains that the Dalish never actually deny striking first, they don't outright say it but they give remarkably few details on the events leading up to the war.

[Xilizhra]

Somebody who'll murder people only tangentially related to the conflict and completely unrelated to the specific grievances the elves have? Ok if that's how you want to go with it.

Honestly, I doubt you could throw a brick in Denerim without hitting someone related to elven oppression somehow. But the inspiration and possibility of defiance are more important.

Ok except unlike Anders the elves don't have a universal power structure to contend with. It also runs into the problem that there's no guarantee the new power structure will be any better, and a healthy precedent that it will in fact be worse.

True, they have more of a web of similarly oppressive power structures, and a singular power structure may be a bit unlikely. However, the mage war may mean that the elves don't need to tear anything down themselves; pretorn society for everyone's convenience.

Again you seem to be ignoring how little it takes to provoke the Dalish to violence, and these are the modern Dalish who don't have anywhere near the military might they had in the Dales. The Dalish will threaten you for looking at them too much, and we're expected to assume they wouldn't attack a border village over something petty? Or maybe it wasn't petty, maybe there was a really good reason to attack that village, but it remains that the Dalish never actually deny striking first, they don't outright say it but they give remarkably few details on the events leading up to the war.

The modern Dalish can also just run away from anyone they provoke, which wasn't true of the population of the Dales. And yes, I very much expect that they'd avoid striking first in such a monumental act of military idiocy, especially since the Chantry has every reason to lie about it.

[MisterJB]

No, they were oppressed by a particularly unpleasant group of humans that opressed other humans as well. Then they were freed by a human and given land. Afterwards, they refused any offers of friendship and cooperation by the humans and started a genocidal war that they lost.
Ever since then, they have continued the tradition of being racist, isolationist a-holes both in and outside of human cities.

How is that for a biased sum up? I admit it is not as good as yours but I think I captured the spirit of it.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again you seem to be ignoring how little it takes to provoke the Dalish to violence, and these are the modern Dalish who don't have anywhere near the military might they had in the Dales. The Dalish will threaten you for looking at them too much, and we're expected to assume they wouldn't attack a border village over something petty? Or maybe it wasn't petty, maybe there was a really good reason to attack that village, but it remains that the Dalish never actually deny striking first, they don't outright say it but they give remarkably few details on the events leading up to the war.

The modern Dalish can also just run away from anyone they provoke, which wasn't true of the population of the Dales. And yes, I very much expect that they'd avoid striking first in such a monumental act of military idiocy, especially since the Chantry has every reason to lie about it.

Maybe they didn't think it would errupt the way it did.  Maybe Red Crossing was just the last straw in a series of escalating border skirmishes.  Maybe the Dalish are complete morons who don't think of the immediate consequences of their actions.  Maybe it was a group of angry young Dalish going against orders, but rather than explain the Elves decided to go to war for the sake of their pride.  Or maybe they tried to explain but the Orlesians didn't believe them because they'd done nothing to foster good relations for 300 years and in fact built up a lot of bad blood.

[Daerog]

Well, being in isolation doesn't seem to help, which has been seen. Alienages are like small isolated societies, humans not living near alienages don't hear much about them. So, elves stay in a bad situation.

Elves attacking, being antagonistic. Well, that creates enemies. Being antagonistic before being friendly, and they can expect few if any allies. Didn't help the Dales, doesn't help when they riot, doesn't help the Dalish at all.

Elves working with humans, fostering good relations. They get the Dales, which they may have kept by being in constant contact with neighbors, don't have to live with humans, but keeping talks up and trade flowing may have made a difference. After all, it was only after being a threat to the Orlesian capital where the Chantry is located was the Exalted March called. They obviously had a very strong military, if they kept communicating friendly relations, even sending an envoy to the Chantry stating that they mean no harm to the Chantry and giving reasons to their invasion (which might not have been necessary if they tried to be nice neighbors and had diplomatic relations to discuss the border skirmishes, if that didn't work, then would justify the invasion to neighbors), would have helped.

If elves become antagonists, they need friends first, they no longer have the resources they once had to be a threat. Some mentioned joining the mages, even though some elves are devout andrastians and fear magic just as much as humans. I think they would do better with volunteering to protect the cities where the alienages are located, help with keeping order and the king's/queen's/lord's law.

That, or get in on the smuggling that will grow due to the war, get some money flowing into some elf families and try to get a hold on trade. They could then buy some land bordering Fereldan and the Dales, then just push out the Avvars and Chasind to grow in territory since no one protects the Avvars and Chasind, and then try to become a center for trade, being near Orzimmar and giving incentives to the surface dwarves that trade back and forth. Could try to rival Tevinter as being a center in the Black Market, too.

This is only if elves want their own land, which many don't seem to want that. After all, not all the elves went to the Dales. Although, with some elves being andrastians, it would be difficult to have an isolationist nation again with the andrastian elves wanting to keep in contact with the Divine, so that would prove to be a problem for the Dalish, who might just end up being shunned by the new elf nation.

Wouldn't that be ironic?

[Xilizhra]

Maybe they didn't think it would errupt the way it did. Maybe Red Crossing was just the last straw in a series of escalating border skirmishes. Maybe the Dalish are complete morons who don't think of the immediate consequences of their actions. Maybe it was a group of angry young Dalish going against orders, but rather than explain the Elves decided to go to war for the sake of their pride. Or maybe they tried to explain but the Orlesians didn't believe them because they'd done nothing to foster good relations for 300 years and in fact built up a lot of bad blood.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. One side doesn't keep many records and the other doesn't keep reliable records, so it's impossible to truly know for certain, but what actually matters is the resulting genocide perpetrated by the Chantry (yes, expelling all of the Dales' population along with killing that many of them counts by UN standards) and the future of what may be done to deal with the power structures arising from it. In one way or another, they need to fall. I believe that you're rather too optimistic about peaceful methods for accomplishing this working, especially when no one trying to work alongside humans has seemed to give the elves hope. On the other hand, as seen in the CE Warden epilogue slide, many elves do react quite well to one of their own claiming a true seat of political power in defiance of human norms, seeing this as a beacon of true hope; this seems to be a more useful precedent.

[Reznore57]

I'd like the city elves to rebel , but i'm not sure the time is right for them.
For now , they don't seem to be able to ...
And i look at them like they have some sort of identity crisis , I'm not sure they know who they are as a people anymore.
Do they want to live among human as equal or just have their own land?

They just have big problem ahead of them , no more culture , mostly people with no education , no firepower ...
I suppose it would take time for them to want to fight back .

If i remember correctly most rebellion came from the young ones , but the community as a whole tends to disaprove , they seemed very tamed and beaten.

They're not exactly the same as the Dalish , they cling on a bit on their past history and religion ...but not very much.
They're always the Qun , but would that be a victory , I'm not sure .We haven't seen any qunari villages , my guess is their lifestyle would improve a bit .But they still be "slaves " to others cultures.

It would be very nice to see a spark of rebellion , and a new culture independant from Dalish /Human/Qun take place.
We could have very cool elves characters rise up as leaders etc...

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It has everything to do with The Warden intimidating the Shaperate, and nothing to do with either the Chantry or the templars pushing the issue. You can try to twist this into as many knots as you'd like, but doesn't change the fact that The Warden factors into Brother Burkel being able to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If it had to do with the Chantry or the templars, then the Chantry would open regardless of The Warden's actions, instead of only opening if The Warden persuades or intimidates the Shaperate into capitulating on the issue.

What you are suggesting is that the Shaperate's action of allowing the opening of a chantry in an attempt to cultivate good relations with the Chantry has nothing to do with the Chantry simply because the Warden helped him make his mind.
This is illogical.

The Shaperate capitulates to The Warden, not to the Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Living on their own terms, and refusing to let humans into their sovereign nation, isn't antagonizing anyone. And Orlais doesn't need a reason to invade - they simply conquer.

Refusing any attempts at peaceful coexistance while threatening those who even come near your borders and attacking a human town is more than enough to antagonize your neighbors.

Wanting to be left alone =\\= refusing peaceful co-existance.

And if templars invaded my homeland to force conversion, I would attack Orlais, too.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarves have a monopoly on lyrium, so I don't see why you keep referencing them as though it's a valid comparison; it isn't. The elves lived on the surface, the dwarves live in the Deep Roads and have to deal with the darkspawn. [/quote]

What's your point?  The humans could attempt to invade and force the Dwarves to mine lyrium for them, they don't, even the Imperium the most expansionist, controlling, slaving Empire in Thedas, didn't pick that fight.  There's a reason for that beyond their ability to mine lyrium and it's good relations. [/quote]

It's an inability to do so. Origins addresses the human nations can't penetrate Orzammar even when they retaliate against the dwarven thaig.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, thank you for acknowledging that the bit you referenced about the elves of the Dales killing missionaries and the like was simply your imagination at work.[/quote]

Based entirely on their established behaviour.[/quote]

So you think all elves are the same because some act that way? There's a word for that.


[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Not according to the Dalish, who say the templars invaded their sovereign territory as a result of the elves kicking out the Chantry missionaries. There are two sides to the fall of the Dales.[/quote]

So do I accept the Dalish telling which offers no details at all, is based on an oral history and heavily biased, or the Orlesian telling which offers explicit details on the events leading up to the war, that were written down, and heavily biased.  Hmm tough call.[/quote]

The nation that wanted to be left alone, or the nation that invades its neighbors because they can. Not a tough call at all.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

When their neighbors are invaders who have conquered since the inception of their history, I doubt it matters what the elves do. Wanting to live on their own, and their Emerald Knights preventing the humans from entering, doesn't seem that hostile to me.[/quote]

Yes because nothing says friendly like driving off attempts at peaceful contact and maintaining an elite military force on your border.[/quote]

I didn't realize trying to force people to convert at the tip of a sword was peaceful.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm sure the conquests of Ferelden and Nevarra can provide you with an answer to that question. So can the Dalish Warden's codex that addresses that this is precisely what the Dalish claim had happened to the Dales.[/quote]

No they very vaguely state that missionaries were sent and later Templars.  They offer no details at all meaning they're A) hiding something, or very bad at maintaing accurate records of their history.[/quote]

It addresses the fall of the Dales. And sending armed and armored drug addicts as a response to refusing to convert shows that their refusal to adopt the Chantry religion is why the war started - according to the Dalish historian.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote... 

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Is this a serious retort? I guess you expect the elves to live in the clouds? How are elves supposed to live among humans when the humans burn down their homes and try to murder them if they move outside of the Alienage?[/quote]

Same way other minorities have dealt with similar treatment in the past.  You keep at it, keep pushing, or you give up and accept the way things are.  Those are the options.[/quote]

In regimes ruled by nobility, where the Alienages can be legally purged? Your analogy to the real world fails to account for the reality of their situation.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote... 

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If your argument was accurate, the Night Elves helping Loghain topple the Orlesian Empire should have meant something, instead of having everything resort to the status quo when all was said and done. A plethora of elves, aiding in the fight to topple tyranny, and nothing changed for the elves who lived in Ferelden.[/quote]

It did mean something, it created the same window of opportunity that Garahel and Shartan did, and again no other elves took advantage of the opening.[/quote]

If the no rulers refuse to change the status quo, there is no window of opportunity for change.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Shartan and his armies, the Warden Garahel, and the Night Elves didn't sit back and do nothing, they acted and accomplished great tasks. And what was the result? Nomadic Dalish elves who are hunted by the templars, and impoverished and powerless city elves who have no representation on the royal court and can be murdered in purges that are legal by law.[/quote]

Because as I've stated the exceptional behaviour of some of the population is not enough to secure change for all of it.  The majority of the population has to demonstrate that they at least aspire to live up to these examples and that's just not the case.  Again we see how the City Elves respond to elves trying to stand out, they quickly beat them down.[/quote]

You keep ignoring that elves can be purged -outright killed, as we see with the massacre at the orphanage - at the drop of a hat. You also ignore that the nations are monarchies, not democracies. Change can't happen unless the rulers want it to, or if a rebellion topples them.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You honestly think the elves would do nothing to stop a murder? There are people willing to take a stand; the elves who help in the City Elf Origin, and the riots over the lack of food during a solo-Queen Anora's rule should attest to the fact that there are elves who won't let humans simply walk all over them and discard them. If they were all as weak as you seem to think, Hawke never would have discovered that Kelder was murdering elven children in Kirkwall.[/quote]

You mean those two elves who made an effort to rescue their women, or the rest of the alienage the berates them if they make it back?  The riots and Kelder are personal instances.  In the riots the elves need to act or they'll starve, and Hawke learns of Kelder because a father is afraid for his daughter.  The City elves regularly demonstrate that the group won't step up for the individuals.  Nobody tries to save the elves from Vaughn except their grooms, and nobody praises them for bringing the women back.  Until the elves stand together behind individuals with the courage and conviction to step up they're not going anywhere.[/quote]

They can't legally carry a weapon, they have no rights, and humans see them as less than people - as Duncan notes for an elven protagonist who has dealt with racism. Perhaps rebellion is the only solution.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Shaperate capitulates to The Warden, not to the Chantry.

But he capitulates because he fears an Exalted March, The Warden simply helped convince him.
It's a concession to keep the peace with the humans. One the elves could have easily afforded.

MisterJB wrote...
Wanting to be left alone == refusing peaceful co-existance.

And if templars invaded my homeland to force conversion, I would attack Orlais, too.

Nations can't afford to be "left alone", especially the only elven nation in Thedas. The elves refused any and all offers of friendship on the basis that humans are a blight. And then they wonder why animosity grows between the two races.

The elves refer to those templars as if they are the one responsible for destroying the Dales but they never acknowledge the fact they almost destroyed Orlais once. It's almost like they want people to forget that.
Could it be that the war came first and the templars later? That their attempt to destroy Orlais is the very reason the Dales are gone?

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[Xilizhra]

The elves refer to those templars as if they are the one responsible for destroying the Dales but they never acknowledge the fact they almost destroyed Orlais once. It's almost like they want people to forget that.
Could it be that the war came first and the templars later? That their attempt to destroy Orlais is the very reason the Dales are gone?

Probably not. It doesn't fit the isolationism. Also, they didn't really almost destroy Orlais; they were able to hit the capital, but that's not tantamount to destroying the entire nation, certainly not to the extent that Orlais and the Chantry did to the Dales.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

No, they were oppressed by a particularly unpleasant group of humans that opressed other humans as well. Then they were freed by a human and given land. Afterwards, they refused any offers of friendship and cooperation by the humans and started a genocidal war that they lost.
Ever since then, they have continued the tradition of being racist, isolationist a-holes both in and outside of human cities.

How is that for a biased sum up? I admit it is not as good as yours but I think I captured the spirit of it.

You're doing it wrong. You're supposed to call your argument common sense and refuse to elaborate. That's how you do bias.

Just kidding, I know that poster wasn't you.

Seriously though, why do the elves need to accept offers of friendship. That's if you call chantry missionaries and Templars "offers of friendship." If the elves wish to pursue isolationist policies, they're free to do so. They aren't hurting anybody. And as far as I'm aware, it was the Chantry who declared an Exalted March, a full on religious war, over a single border conflict. If real world humans went to war over something so trivial (and in the grand scheme of things, a single village is trivial), there'd be nothing left of this planet by now.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .