394 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

The isolationism of the dalish is extreme to the point of being hostile, they threaten to kill any human that comes near the camp. If they believed themselves to have the advantage, it is quite possible they decided to enact those threats.

If you hit the capital of a nation, you are either intent on conquering it or destroying it and claim their territory. Had the Chantry not called for an Exalted March, the elves would have done to Orlais what the humans did to the Dales. Probrably worse, since they believe humans are plague, they would most likely butcher all orlesians.

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
Seriously though, why do the elves need to accept offers of friendship.

Because it's a good idea to mantain peaceful relations with your neighbors. Treating the nearby expansionist empire as if contact with them infects you with "mortality" is just asking for trouble.
 

That's if you call chantry missionaries and Templars "offers of friendship."

Sending missionaries can be seen as a peaceful attempt at an exchange of culture and ideas. I expect traders and diplomats were turned away as well, tough.

If the elves wish to pursue isolationist policies, they're free to do so. They aren't hurting anybody. And as far as I'm aware, it was the Chantry who declared an Exalted March, a full on religious war, over a single border conflict. If real world humans went to war over something so trivial (and in the grand scheme of things, a single village is trivial), there'd be nothing left of this planet by now.

The Chantry declared an Exalted March only after the dalish were close to conquering Val Royeaux herself. They were hurting a lot of people.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

The isolationism of the dalish is extreme to the point of being hostile, they threaten to kill any human that comes near the camp. If they believed themselves to have the advantage, it is quite possible they decided to enact those threats.

If you hit the capital of a nation, you are either intent on conquering it or destroying it and claim their territory. Had the Chantry not called for an Exalted March, the elves would have done to Orlais what the humans did to the Dales. Probrably worse, since they believe humans are plague, they would most likely butcher all orlesians.

What evidence is there to suggest the elves had any designs on Val Royeaux? Isolationism is by definition not hostile. It is absolutely neutral. If the attack on Red Crossing was perpetrated by elves of the Dales, that would be hostility. But as I have said before, we only have records written by a chantry scholar to suggest that is the case. Even if the attack were carried out by elves, how did Orlais know that those elves weren't simply bandits? And even then, a single border incident doesn't come close to justification of full scale war.

Orlais was itching to take the Dales back. Their history of expansionist policies, combined with the lack of reliable evidence from a neutral source, means that in my opinion you cannot declare the elves to be at fault here. Orlais wanted that Exalted March to happen.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:53 .

[Blacklash93]

MisterJB wrote...

The isolationism of the dalish is extreme to the point of being hostile, they threaten to kill any human that comes near the camp. If they believed themselves to have the advantage, it is quite possible they decided to enact those threats.

If you hit the capital of a nation, you are either intent on conquering it or destroying it and claim their territory. Had the Chantry not called for an Exalted March, the elves would have done to Orlais what the humans did to the Dales. Probrably worse, since they believe humans are plague, they would most likely butcher all orlesians.

This has probably been said, but I can't blame them for wanting isolation when extended human contact greatly reduces their lifespan. I believe it has been said that Dalish live about twice as long as their City counterparts. Obviously there's truth to the old tales of their immortality and how humans tainted it. Humans are like Darkspawn to them in a sense. Just being around them has adverse effects.

Edit: Deleted part would be for the other elf thread.

But really, butchering Orlais? How could anyone be opposed to this? It's an awful place filled with... Orlesians.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:07 .

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
What evidence is there to suggest the elves had any designs on Val Royeaux?

They sacked it eventually.

Isolationism is by definition not hostile.

It is if you threaten to kill anyone who comes close. Be it an armed templar or an harmless Brother that just wants to learn your culture and maybe share his own (Genitivi).

It is absolutely neutral. If the attack on Red Crossing was perpetrated by elves of the Dales, that would be hostility. But as I have said before, we only have records written by a chantry scholar to suggest that is the case. Even if the attack were carried out by elves, how did Orlais know that those elves weren't simply bandits? And even then, a single border incident doesn't come close to justification of full scale war.

Orlais was itching to take the Dales back. Their history of expansionist policies, combined with the lack of reliable evidence of neutral providance, means that in my opinion you cannot declare the elves to be at fault here. Orlais wanted that Exalted March to happen.

The City Elves support the claim that Red Crossing was attacked by elves tough they also suggest it was provoked. Admitadelly, one could claim they were taught this by the Chantry but it is at least another record. 

I disagree. I think that the aggressiveness of the elves towards Orlais; they pushed into human lands before the Exalted March was declared; as well as the inherent racism of all their isolationist policies makes them worthy of the blame.
That is not to say humans are isent of it or that they deserved to lose their homeland.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:08 .

[MisterJB]

This has probably been said, but I can't blame them for wanting isolation when extended human contact greatly reduces their lifespan. I believe it has been said that Dalish live about twice as long as their City counterparts. Obviously there's truth to the old tales of their immortality and how humans tainted it. Humans are like Darkspawn to them in a sense. Just being around them has adverse effects.

Lanaya claims the dalish live longer tough not how much; maybe this supported by other sources I can't remember; but it could just be because they don't have to live in squalor like the City Elves.

I think this tale of immortality is simply a parable meant to justify their isolationist policies. Even if it is true, I feel that focusing on creating an elven nation that can last is more important than attempting to reclaim some obscure immortality that was lost millenia ago. Learning to live alongside with humans is a crucial step if this new nation is to endure.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
What evidence is there to suggest the elves had any designs on Val Royeaux?

They sacked it eventually.

Before the war started, what evidence was there? Once war broke out, yes the elves pushed into Orlais and sacked Val Royeaux. But besides from border skirmishes, what reason did Orlais have for declaring war?

It is if you threaten to kill anyone who comes close. Be it an armed templar or an harmless Brother that just wants to learn your culture and maybe share his own (Genitivi).

So long as the border is clear and people are given a warning before being killed, there is nothing wrong with such a policy. A nation has the right to close its borders if it wants to, this does not indicate that the nation wants war. If there was an epidemic in America for instance, European countries would close their borders to prevent it from becoming a pandemic. This is a reasonable strategy for disease control. Since the elves believe humans to have caused their reduced life spans, if not loss of full biological immortality, the only reasonable policy the elves can take is to close their borders to humans. Any other policy results in the loss of countless centuries of collective elven life.

And since the Dalish do live longer than other elves (talking about the average Dalish, not exceptional cases like Zathrian) the evidence suggests that human contact does cause a reduction in elvish lifespan. Whether it caused a loss of immortality is up for debate, but elves do live longer without humans.

The City Elves support the claim that Red Crossing was attacked by elves tough they also suggest it was provoked. Admitedelly, one could claim they were taught this by the Chantry but it is at least another record. 

I disagree. I think that the aggressiveness of the elves towards Orlais; they pushed into human lands before the Exalted March was declared; as well as the inherent racism of all their isolationist policies makes them worthy of the blame.
That is not to say humans are isent of it or that they deserved to lose their homeland.

The elves were aggressive, true. But so was Orlais. After war was declared, you cannot fault the elves for trying to eliminate their enemy as quickly as possible. Whether or not Orlais was justified in declaring that war is up for debate.

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
Before the war started, what evidence was there? Once war broke out, yes the elves pushed into Orlais and sacked Val Royeaux. But besides from border skirmishes, what reason did Orlais have for declaring war?

Did Orlais declare war? One could claim the Dales declared war when they invaded human borders and massacred a human town.

The dalish antagonized the neighbor nations so, they shouldn't cry "Foul" when they become enemies. It is a fact that Orlais is expansionist but completely destroying civilizations is not their style, they just occupy. That the elves are a different race might have contributed to this harsh treatment but I think it also likely it was out of righteous fury after the elves sacked Val Royeux

So long as the border is clear and people are given a warning before being killed, there is nothing wrong with such a policy. A nation has the right to close its borders if it wants to, this does not indicate that the nation wants war. If there was an epidemic in America for instance, European countries would close their borders to prevent it from becoming a pandemic. This is a reasonable strategy for disease control. Since the elves believe humans to have caused their reduced life spans, if not loss of full biological immortality, the only reasonable policy the elves can take is to close their borders to humans. Any other policy results in the loss of countless centuries of collective elven life.

And since the Dalish do live longer than other elves (talking about the average Dalish, not exceptional cases like Zathrian) the evidence suggests that human contact does cause a reduction in elvish lifespan. Whether it caused a loss of immortality is up for debate, but elves do live longer without humans.

I think my response to Backlash's post regarding this supposed "immortality" works equally well here. You'll forgive me for not repeating it.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Shaperate capitulates to The Warden, not to the Chantry.

But he capitulates because he fears an Exalted March, The Warden simply helped convince him.
It's a concession to keep the peace with the humans. One the elves could have easily afforded.

He capitulates to The Warden, who can be persuasive enough to sell ice to penguins in Alaska. That doesn't support your claim by any measure; he can be ridiculously persuasive multiple times. The fact remains, the Shaperate doesn't change his mind at the behest of the Chantry, but rather he changes his mind because of the legendary Warden who can do the impossible.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wanting to be left alone =/= refusing peaceful co-existance.

And if templars invaded my homeland to force conversion, I would attack Orlais, too.

Nations can't afford to be "left alone", especially the only elven nation in Thedas. The elves refused any and all offers of friendship on the basis that humans are a blight. And then they wonder why animosity grows between the two races.

The elves refer to those templars as if they are the one responsible for destroying the Dales but they never acknowledge the fact they almost destroyed Orlais once. It's almost like they want people to forget that.
Could it be that the war came first and the templars later? That their attempt to destroy Orlais is the very reason the Dales are gone?

The elves had the right to govern their nation any way they wanted to; if they wanted to be left alone, that was their right. It doesn't justify the Chantry trying to force them to abandon their religion and worship the Maker, or to send templars to force them to submit. All you do is blame the elves for attacking a nation the elves claim initiated hostilities.

No matter how you continue spinning it, Orlais never needed an excuse to conquer a nation. They did it since their inception, and they have done it throughout history.

[Xilizhra]

The dalish antagonized the neighbor nations so, they shouldn't cry "Foul" when they become enemies. It is a fact that Orlais is expansionist but completely destroying civilizations is not their style, they just occupy. That the elves are a different race might have contributed to this harsh treatment but I think it also likely it was out of righteous fury after the elves sacked Val Royeux

Your proof of this is nil, but regardless, the elves did not commit genocide against Orlais. The Chantry did commit genocide against the Dales. Reparations are the Chantry's business to deal with... of course, their other abuses have come back to bite them so quickly that they may no longer have the resources. Oh well.

I agree that the elves probably need to develop new tactics to achieve victory, but the human hegemony over them must fall. Humans will never willingly relinquish their power while it's still legal.

[MisterJB]

Humans willingly relinquished their power before. The current living conditions of the elves are their own fault. They were in the middle of commiting genocide when they were stopped by the Exalted March.

Lobselvith: We are just going in circles. You say the elves had the right to govern their nation. I agree but one should do so intelligently. Burning bridges with your neighbors it's simply stupid.

Sending missionaries is not forcing the elves to abandon their gods. The Chantry also claims the elves started hostilities. You choose to believe the elves because Orlais is an expansionist empire, I believe the humans because I've seen how incredibly racist and hostile the elves are.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Humans willingly relinquished their power before. The current living conditions of the elves are their own fault. They were in the middle of commiting genocide when they were stopped by the Exalted March.

No they weren't. They were launching a military attack on Val Royeaux. It's not the same thing. In any case, I don't know of any humans relinquishing any power; one group of humans fought another group of humans, and then a third group of humans wasted the elves and now we have the current status quo.

Again, I'll agree with you that the elves need new tactics, but they cannot just stay subordinate to humans and work upward within the broken system.

[MisterJB]

If you are attacking the capital of a nation, you either intend to conquer or destroy it. Since the elves abhor contact with humans, there is really only one option.
Had the humans not won, the dalish would have done to Orlais what the orlesians did to the Dales or worse.

A group of humans freed the elves and then gave them land. That land was eventually taken from them but the elves bear the blame on that as much as the humans if not more.

[Xilizhra]

If you are attacking the capital of a nation, you either intend to conquer or destroy it. Since the elves abhor contact with humans, there is really only one option.
Had the humans not won, the dalish would have done to Orlais what the orlesians did to the Dales or worse.

So you believe without proof. As it never happened, it's ultimately irrelevant to the present.

A group of humans freed the elves and then gave them land. That land was eventually taken from them but the elves bear the blame on that as much as the humans if not more.

Your beliefs are noted and no longer interesting. As of now, I'm more interested in how the elves can seize a position of equality.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Humans willingly relinquished their power before. The current living conditions of the elves are their own fault. They were in the middle of commiting genocide when they were stopped by the Exalted March.

Lobselvith: We are just going in circles. You say the elves had the right to govern their nation. I agree but one should do so intelligently. Burning bridges with your neighbors it's simply stupid.

Sending missionaries is not forcing the elves to abandon their gods. The Chantry also claims the elves started hostilities. You choose to believe the elves because Orlais is an expansionist empire, I believe the humans because I've seen how incredibly racist and hostile the elves are.

And I believe both. I see no reason why both sides can't have been at fault. Orlais is an expansionist empire. They offered aid to Nevarra after the third blight, and their soldiers never left and occupied the country, then conquered it. All in the name of friendship..

At the same time, unless I'm playing a Dalish Warden, I've never seen the Dalish respond kindly to anyone. Even if you play a Dalish, you can still choose to kill the humans who accidentally wandered to close to the camp. The Dalish are isolationist now, and more than a little hostile. The warden got by alive because he/she had treaties to called the Dalish elves to aid, a promise made centuries past. Hawke gets by alive because he's expected by Merethari to deliver an amulet for Flemeth. Both times, the protagonist had dealings with the Dalish. And both times, the Dalish were increibly reluctant to go along with it. And Hawke helps them out almost as much as the Warden does, but Hawke is never given the same respect the Warden receives after aiding them.

Guess being a Grey Warden offers certain levels of respect, but being a shemlen forever dooms you to hostility.

Like I said, I believe the Dalish may have been overly antagonistic in their isolation policies, and Orlais was looking for an excuse to conquere them without the Chantry complaining about them defying Andraste's gift to them.

My personal opinion is that both sides have dirty laundry they don't want shown to the world. And considering the ridiculousness of Orlesian fashion, it'd probably have been some nasty underwear.

...

But I digress. I think Orlais had the most to gain and the most to hide, but I have no doubt that the Dalish had their own set of crimes and wrong-doing also.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
As of now, I'm more interested in how the elves can seize a position of equality.

Well violent revolution isn't really an option seeing as how any territory they do manage to carve out for themselves will be taken the moment the dust of the Templar/Mage conflict settles.  I suppose they could pledge themselves to a side in the hopes they can generate another gift like the Dales.  That won't last either though (see the Fall of the Dales) unless it's established by the City Elves who don't seem so hung up on the idea of immortality.

Perhaps they could wait until the Templar/Mage conflict has become excessively costly for both sides and then establish themselves as a neutral mediator, requesting they be granted a plot of land that will be considered neutral ground where the two sides can iron out negotiations but violence is strictly forbidden with violation resulting in the elves joing the other side.  Since the Templars and Mages will never come to any kind of peaceful agreement, as long as the elves can trick each side into believing they're making headway they could have their own free, equal society till the end of time.

[Xilizhra]

I think things will change more fundamentally than that; I also believe that, given that the Circles seem to be the one place in Thedas (aside from qunari lands) that actually practice racial equality, that the mages will be sympathetic to the elven cause, and perhaps vice versa. Allying with that side, especially since it'd be a chance to fight back against the religious sponsors of their oppression, may be the best way to go.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish have mages, like Velanna, who might ally with an enemy of the Orlesians, the Chantry, and the templars. I can see some Dalish throwing their lot with the mages. Perhaps some city elves will be like Pol, and leave the Alienage for the opportunity of a better life with the clans. Perhaps the promise of getting back the Dales could lure more elves.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish have mages, like Velanna, who might ally with an enemy of the Orlesians, the Chantry, and the templars. I can see some Dalish throwing their lot with the mages. Perhaps some city elves will be like Pol, and leave the Alienage for the opportunity of a better life with the clans. Perhaps the promise of getting back the Dales could lure more elves.

One slight problem: the Dalish can be real morons about blood magic use, which could cause issues with the Resolutionists and the like. Presumably "cleaner" mages would act as liasions.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think things will change more fundamentally than that; I also believe that, given that the Circles seem to be the one place in Thedas (aside from qunari lands) that actually practice racial equality, that the mages will be sympathetic to the elven cause, and perhaps vice versa. Allying with that side, especially since it'd be a chance to fight back against the religious sponsors of their oppression, may be the best way to go.

Yeah siding with the mages probably would be the best way to go, though it could make for a good public image if the race who stood with Andraste against mage tyranny stand with the Chantry now against the same.

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry is no longer really in the war, as their entire army quit. I don't think rogue templars are that much more palatable than rogue mages.

[DPSSOC]

Well only one can make your blood boil because they've had a bad day. I mean both'll kill you but at least a sword is relatively quick.

[dragonflight288]

Unless we duel to the pain. First we'll cut off your feet at the ankles. Then your hands at the wrists. Followed by your left eye and then your right.

[thats1evildude]

And then my ears! I understand! Let's get on with it!

Modifié par thats1evildude, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:15 .

[Lazy Jer]

Well what are we arguing for exactly, equal rights or separation they're two different concepts. Fighting for equal rights would mean staying within the current areas they are now (Denerum, Kirkwall, etc.) and just pushing to have the same rights as humans.

Separation means leaving those cities entirely and restarting the Dales or something. It's an important distinction because they would have to use means to accomplish the different goals.