394 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

thats1evildude wrote...

And then my ears! I understand! Let's get on with it!

Wrong! Your ears you keep and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, "Dear God! What is that
thing," will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think things will change more fundamentally than that; I also believe that, given that the Circles seem to be the one place in Thedas (aside from qunari lands) that actually practice racial equality, that the mages will be sympathetic to the elven cause, and perhaps vice versa. Allying with that side, especially since it'd be a chance to fight back against the religious sponsors of their oppression, may be the best way to go.

Yeah siding with the mages probably would be the best way to go, though it could make for a good public image if the race who stood with Andraste against mage tyranny stand with the Chantry now against the same.

If the Chantry was the one calling the shots for the Templars and the Seekers, sure.

But that's not the case. The majority of the Templars and Seekers have broken away to fight the Mages, on the premise that they're all rebels deserving of death, harsher imprisonment, or Tranquility. Or all three, in the order of 2-3-1.

The Elves -- especially the Dalish Elves -- would be smart to side with the Mages. The Mages would be smart to side with Divine Justinia V, because she's a supporter of Mage reforms -- within reason.

Justinia V would have a reverse army. The Mages on her side along with the might of the Elves against Chantry tyranny, rather then fighting against Mage tyranny.

It's interesting. The potential for the exact reverse of Andraste's Holy Exalted March on the Imperium is there, staring us in the face.

[Xilizhra]

The Elves -- especially the Dalish Elves -- would be smart to side with the Mages. The Mages would be smart to side with Divine Justinia V, because she's a supporter of Mage reforms -- within reason.

Don't step into another set of shackles just because they're golden. The Chantry's control of mages must be utterly smashed beyond repair; if Justinia can accept that, so much the better.

[Lazy Jer]

The idea of the elves siding with the mages really does depend on the goal that the elves are trying to reach. The Dalish might very well benefit from an alliance with the mages because their goal is separation. They want their own land away from humans/dwarves. Elves who want out of human society entirely also might feel this way.

Some elves, though, may simply want the same rights afforded humans in the cities. In which case siding with the mages, or the templars for that matter, wouldn't be conducive to the task at hand, i.e. equality.

[WardenWade]

Lazy Jer wrote...

The idea of the elves siding with the mages really does depend on the goal that the elves are trying to reach. The Dalish might very well benefit from an alliance with the mages because their goal is separation. They want their own land away from humans/dwarves. Elves who want out of human society entirely also might feel this way.

Some elves, though, may simply want the same rights afforded humans in the cities. In which case siding with the mages, or the templars for that matter, wouldn't be conducive to the task at hand, i.e. equality.

That's a good point.  Siding with the mages certainly seems viable; Anders even mentions at one point in ambient dialogue that the elves suffer much like mages and that he feels they should indeed ally.  As you mentioned, however, this wouldn't be across the board for elves any more than it would be for mages...on both sides it would be hard for everyone to agree on their overall priority, much less how best to achieve it.

On a side note, I kind of like the certain amount of...I guess it would be irony...of Dalish elves in particular siding with mages/"magisters" and fighting for freedom together.  But as Sisterofshane mentioned below, the Dalish have a more open-minded perspective on magic in general, and it does not seem impossible IMO.

Modifié par WardenWade, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:20 .

[Sisterofshane]

Lazy Jer wrote...

The idea of the elves siding with the mages really does depend on the goal that the elves are trying to reach. The Dalish might very well benefit from an alliance with the mages because their goal is separation. They want their own land away from humans/dwarves. Elves who want out of human society entirely also might feel this way.

Some elves, though, may simply want the same rights afforded humans in the cities. In which case siding with the mages, or the templars for that matter, wouldn't be conducive to the task at hand, i.e. equality.

I'd say that any elf would have to be desperate to join up with the Mages, but it would make no sense for the mages to NOT ally themselves with the Dalish.  For one, the Dalish have a very open, positive view on magic (they believe that at one time, all elves had the "gift").  Two, the Dalish have a very hard stance on oppression and being treated as "second-class", which is exactly what happens to elves in human cities.

I can see the elves, however, not being very willing to completely trust Mages.  First, it was the mages of the Tevinter Imperium that brought about the fall of Arlathan, and enslaved and destroyed Elven culture.  Then there is the matter of the city elves, being raised to the beliefs of the chantry (look at poor Pol and how terrified he was of Merril just because of blood magic!  The other elves may have sneered at her, but they certainly weren't afraid of her).  Lastly, for the Dalish, there is the little matter of wanting to avoid human contact so that they can bring about their "immortality" once again.

Ultimately I think it will come down to the chantry and sovereign nations under it - will they support the freedom of the Elves in return for their help in reigning in the mages?  Or will the widespread oppression of the elves worsen to the point that the elves are driven to siding with the mages for help?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't step into another set of shackles just because they're golden. The Chantry's control of mages must be utterly smashed beyond repair; if Justinia can accept that, so much the better.

I doubt she'd be willing to relinquish all control over the Mages, but I think she'd be open to giving the Chantry and Templars less control then they had prior to the war and giving the Mages more authority on the Circle's operations.

So instead of the Templars having "dominion over the Mages by divine right", she'd work to have it be more of a joint leadership thing.

Or something. I can't really phrase what I want to say today, for some reason.

Lazy Jer wrote...

The idea of the elves siding with the mages really does depend on the goal that the elves are trying to reach. The Dalish might very well benefit from an alliance with the mages because their goal is separation. They want their own land away from humans/dwarves. Elves who want out of human society entirely also might feel this way.

Well, truthfully Elves just want to be away from Humans. They have no issue with Dwarves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juillet 2012 - 06:27 .

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't step into another set of shackles just because they're golden. The Chantry's control of mages must be utterly smashed beyond repair; if Justinia can accept that, so much the better.

I doubt she'd be willing to relinquish all control over the Mages, but I think she'd be open to giving the Chantry and Templars less control then they had prior to the war and giving the Mages more authority on the Circle's operations.

So instead of the Templars having "dominion over the Mages by divine right", she'd work to have it be more of a joint leadership thing.

Or something. I can't really phrase what I want to say today, for some reason.

Relinquish? She no longer has any control over them, it'd be a matter of reasserting control... without an army. The mages do not, at this moment, have any reason to bargain with her.

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

The idea of the elves siding with the mages really does depend on the goal that the elves are trying to reach. The Dalish might very well benefit from an alliance with the mages because their goal is separation. They want their own land away from humans/dwarves. Elves who want out of human society entirely also might feel this way.

Well, truthfully Elves just want to be away from Humans. They have no issue with Dwarves.

Give them a week living amongst dwarves and they will, trust me.  (Just kidding).

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Relinquish? She no longer has any control over them, it'd be a matter of reasserting control... without an army. The mages do not, at this moment, have any reason to bargain with her.

Well, I don't mean in the here and now. I meant when -- and more importantly, if -- she can reassert control, then I don't think she'd be willing to relinquish all control but would be open to lessening how much control the Chantry and Templars have over Mages.

And I think the Mages do have a reason to bargain with her. She's the first Divine in decades -- possibly centuries -- to argue for pro-mage reforms. That made her a target of assassination by the Templars and Seekers, who wanted someone more malleable to their interests.

The Mages wanted more freedom. Justinia V is willing to grant that. Not complete freedom, but more rights and more freedoms then they had elsewhere -- which could include basic things like family, having homes near Circles, etc.

The Mages should ally with her, on that premise alone. She's open to discussion on the matter and her life is threatened. If she dies, then there's no one to guarantee the Templars won't murder the mass populus in their lyrium withdrawal -- meaning friends and family of the Mages. The Templars won't draw a distinction between non-combatant and enemy in their paranoid state. They'll kill anyone that gets in their way, and more then likely will plunder and ransack helpless villages for money to get even a smidgeon of lyrium.

The Mages could discuss the matter with her, promising their support and protection for her in exchange for her holding true to her word on reformation policies. If she breaks it, then war would go on again.

Also, we have to acknowledge that some Templar groups will undoubtedly have sided with the Mages. I can easily see Gregoir's group siding with the Mages -- or alternatively, he immediately sided with the Divine -- and I can see Evangeline having a certain amount of sway over the Mages and other Templar groups.

[Xilizhra]

The Mages wanted more freedom. Justinia V is willing to grant that. Not complete freedom, but more rights and more freedoms then they had elsewhere -- which could include basic things like family, having homes near Circles, etc.

She'll die eventually, and what then? The mages won't have any say in who becomes Divine, and the odds of it being someone less favorable to mage freedom are high. It's a short-term solution at best.

The Mages should ally with her, on that premise alone. She's open to discussion on the matter and her life is threatened. If she dies, then there's no one to guarantee the Templars won't murder the mass populus in their lyrium withdrawal -- meaning friends and family of the Mages. The Templars won't draw a distinction between non-combatant and enemy in their paranoid state. They'll kill anyone that gets in their way, and more then likely will plunder and ransack helpless villages for money to get even a smidgeon of lyrium.

Thus creating the perfect opportunity for the mages. With the templars devolved into disorganized marauders, the mages can turn the tables to act as protectors of various communities against the templars. It's a perfect opportunity for them to step into the good graces of the common folk. With the templars the new public enemies and the Chantry leaderless and weaponless, it's a world of endless possibilities to be seized. Now as then, there can be no peace until one side is gone.

Also, we have to acknowledge that some Templar groups will undoubtedly have sided with the Mages. I can easily see Gregoir's group siding with the Mages -- or alternatively, he immediately sided with the Divine -- and I can see Evangeline having a certain amount of sway over the Mages and other Templar groups.

Greagoir would be the first to sign up with Lambert; his precious order being flouted by the mages will leave him with no sympathy (it's not as if he had any towards mages seeking freedom anyway). I'm confident in his being an enemy.

[dragonflight288]

Hmm. I think Gregoire could go either way. He could stay loyal to the Divine. He's not an unreasonable man and he had a good relationship with Irving, even if they were at each others throats.

Or he may support the templar order in its rebellion as he is a templar himself, and was raised with this system.

[Xilizhra]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. I think Gregoire could go either way. He could stay loyal to the Divine. He's not an unreasonable man and he had a good relationship with Irving, even if they were at each others throats.

Or he may support the templar order in its rebellion as he is a templar himself, and was raised with this system.

Clearly we'll have to disagree on that...

[dragonflight288]

Xilizhra wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Hmm. I think Gregoire could go either way. He could stay loyal to the Divine. He's not an unreasonable man and he had a good relationship with Irving, even if they were at each others throats.

Or he may support the templar order in its rebellion as he is a templar himself, and was raised with this system.

Clearly we'll have to disagree on that...

I suppose we can do that. I may be wrong as the series progresses, but if he was willing to take Irving's word over Cullen's, I think there may be some merit there. My own personal opinion.

[Xilizhra]

Irving's a collaborator who entraps apprentices. Why wouldn't they work well together?

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

She'll die eventually, and what then? The mages won't have any say in who becomes Divine, and the odds of it being someone less favorable to mage freedom are high. It's a short-term solution at best.

Don't know. There are probably ways the reforms could be instituted as unchangeable laws, but any determined person can work their way around it.

Xilizhra wrote..
Thus creating the perfect opportunity for the mages. With the templars devolved into disorganized marauders, the mages can turn the tables to act as protectors of various communities against the templars. It's a perfect opportunity for them to step into the good graces of the common folk.

Of course it is. But if they side with the Chantry and do these things, that'll act as a double-spark to improving the perception of magic -- which has been done by the Mages' Collective already in Ferelden.

Xilizhra wrote...

Greagoir would be the first to sign up with Lambert; his precious order being flouted by the mages will leave him with no sympathy (it's not as if he had any towards mages seeking freedom anyway). I'm confident in his being an enemy.

He actually begrudgingly allows the Mages the right to govern themselves in a Mage US ending. He's at first startled by Alistair's suggestion and tries to fight it, but acquiesces and agrees with Alistair due to the King's points on the matter.

Anora herself will also grant the same boon.

The Chantry denied the request per DAII -- though Alistair is still fighting for it -- but Gregoir is not the Chantry.

[Xilizhra]

Don't know. There are probably ways the reforms could be instituted as unchangeable laws, but any determined person can work their way around it.

Far too easily abused. The mages need to be wholly independent.

Of course it is. But if they side with the Chantry and do these things, that'll act as a double-spark to improving the perception of magic -- which has been done by the Mages' Collective already in Ferelden.

Meh. If the Chantry can be made to look bad by the departure of the templars, there may not be any need to side with the political institution of the Chantry, especially if it can be made to seem like the aide to Orlesian occupation again. We might even be able to get rid of that altogether.

He actually begrudgingly allows the Mages the right to govern themselves in a Mage US ending. He's at first startled by Alistair's suggestion and tries to fight it, but acquiesces and agrees with Alistair due to the King's points on the matter.

Anora herself will also grant the same boon.

The Chantry denied the request per DAII -- though Alistair is still fighting for it -- but Gregoir is not the Chantry.

A moment of emotional weakness, I suspect. He's still a murderous lout and I doubt he's any reliable friend to anyone on the mage side.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

A moment of emotional weakness, I suspect. He's still a murderous lout and I doubt he's any reliable friend to anyone on the mage side.

Here's the aforementioned US ending

I wouldn't call that emotional weakness, nor would I label him as being non-friendly to Mages. He'll say that he doesn't wish to kill the innocent Mages of the Tower during Broken Circle, but the threat of the Abominations roaming the halls virtually left him no choice.

I don't consider Irving a person that entraps apprentices. At least, not of his own accord. I believe that was entirely Uldred's doing, manipulating Irving.

Irving's a massive twit, but that's as far as I'll label him. Uldred set up apprentices to be labeled blood mages and reported it to Irving and Gregoir, so as to increase his own standing and keep his own status as a maleficar hidden.

I'm certain the books left out there were a plan that stemmed from Uldred. Indeed, game evidence supports this theory.

Irving's a twit, but he's not a douche.

Xilizhra wrote...

Meh. If the Chantry can be made to look bad by the departure of the templars, there may not be any need to side with the political institution of the Chantry, especially if it can be made to seem like the aide to Orlesian occupation again. We might even be able to get rid of that altogether.

I'm not certain the Chantry would look bad. Remember, the Templars/Seekers broke away of their own volition from the Chantry, not the other way around. That immediately casts the Templars and Seekers in a bad light, while painting the Chantry as threatened victims.

If it becomes known the Divine was almost assassinated by the Templars/Seekers, that also points to her being a victim.

The Divine is the Chantry. For the Seekers and Templars to fight against her, that puts them as going against the word of the Maker -- as Thedosians believe, anyway. The Divine is the one that interprets the Chant of Light and the Maker's words.

Supporting her is the politically sound move for the Mages, if they want a real shot at gaining more freedom. IMO anyway.

I'm not against the Circles being independent -- indeed, that's what I want to happen in an ideal world -- but I'd rather the Mages go the politically sound route rather then the idealistic route, even if the second option is still possible.

If they support the Chantry and protect common folk, magic's perception will be improved in the eyes of the populus. That's when they can start discussing independence -- but not total freedom, as the purpose of the Templars is necessary -- because then the people will be far more accepting of Mages in society.

If you increase the perception of magic by 200% as opposed to 100%, then you've got a better shot at being autonomous and having the Chantry have no control over your lives, unless your lives threaten other peoples' lives.

[Lazy Jer]

Isn't this typical. The elves finally get their own thead on this forum and the mages take that away too. Typical *shakes head* mages are almost as dangerous as the templars.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 20 juillet 2012 - 09:59 .

[DPSSOC]

Getting back to the elves it was asked earlier and I think it's important to hash out what we're actually talking about in terms of what the elves are gunning for. If it's equal rights and treatment within human lands then it's a matter of winning over hearts and minds. If it's a land of their own ala the Dales then it's a matter of claiming and holding onto territory. The first will be difficult because it will soley be a City Elf effort (the Dalish have cast their die a long time ago) and they'll have to constantly deal with the fallout for Dalish being collosal pricks.

The second however has been establsihed as nigh impossible. The elves weren't able to hold off an invasion from a fledgling Tevinter at it's height so I don't see how they can hope to hold territory unless they drop their isolationist policies in which case the Dalish become a problem again. I suppose if they aren't too attached to the surface they could ask the Dwarves to let them carve out a section of the Deep Roads for themselves, then they'd just have to deal with darkspawn.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .

[General User]

DPSSOC wrote...

Getting back to the elves it was asked earlier and I think it's important to hash out what we're actually talking about in terms of what the elves are gunning for. If it's equal rights and treatment within human lands then it's a matter of winning over hearts and minds. If it's a land of their own ala the Dales then it's a matter of claiming and holding onto territory. The first will be difficult because it will soley be a City Elf effort (the Dalish have cast their die a long time ago) and they'll have to constantly deal with the fallout for Dalish being collosal pricks.

The second however has been establsihed as nigh impossible. The elves weren't able to hold off an invasion from a fledgling Tevinter at it's height so I don't see how they can hope to hold territory unless they drop their isolationist policies in which case the Dalish become a problem again. I suppose if they aren't too attached to the surface they could ask the Dwarves to let them carve out a section of the Deep Roads for themselves, then they'd just have to deal with darkspawn.

I think the only real "civil right" for elves that makes sense in the general context of Thedas would be some sort of equal protection principle.  You know, crimes against elves aren't excused and petitions to authority made by elves aren't ignored simply because the claimants or supposed victims are elves.

Beyond that, I imagine the concept of "rights" should be more localized, with elves enjoying the same rights to movement, assembly, speech, property, etc., that humans of equivilent social station enjoy.  Oh!  That's another thing elevating certain exceptional city elves to the applicable peerage would be good move.

Now, as far as the elves establishing a viable homeland goes, you're absolutely right; unless any "New Dales" learns form the mistakes of the "Old Dales" and adopts a whole different outlook on other races, they're bound to wind up the same way.

Modifié par General User, 20 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[Xilizhra]

If a new elven nation can be established in bringing down Orlais, that might earn points from Ferelden and Nevarra, at least. They may be able to retake their original Dales territory and benefit from an alliance with Ferelden; if the city elf effort can improve their rights there, they might be able to pull off existing as well as cutting off the expansionist pricks to the west. Not necessarily perfectly stable, but a good start.

[General User]

What have the Orlesians done with the Dales since they drove the elves out? Have they resettled the territory? And with who?

[Xilizhra]

I'm not entirely sure, I don't know if it's been mentioned. I doubt it'd have been settled highly, however.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

What have the Orlesians done with the Dales since they drove the elves out? Have they resettled the territory? And with who?

They resettled. There are coastal settlements all along the Waking Sea -- per... Mary Kirby IIRC -- and Halamshiral has its own people there -- see the Summer Sword codex.