394 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not entirely sure, I don't know if it's been mentioned. I doubt it'd have been settled highly, however.

Why not, wasn't it some of the most fertile land in the region when it was conquered, the rest of Orlais having been ravaged by the second Blight while the elves sat back and watched?

However the where and how of establishing an elven nation are the smaller problem (they've established nations before); it's the matter of holding onto it that generates the problem.  History has shown that the elves, by themselves, cannot stave off invasion; twice they've been invaded and twice they've fallen.  So the question becomes if the elves want a separate nation where they can live as they wish are they, or at least some of them, willing to sacrifice the dream of immortallity in order to maintain relations with human nations so that when/if they're invaded again they have allies.

[Xilizhra]

There's either that, or possible installing stronger defenses... allies would be useful, but if trade could be conducted by proxy (probably those elves who continued to live in human society), they might be able to pull off a more separated society.

[DPSSOC]

Again at the peak of their civilization the elves couldn't muster a strong enough defence, the humans have only gotten stronger while the elves have diminished I really don't think they could muster stronger defenses if they wanted to.

Actually just thought of something, would elves living among humans cause those who aren't to Quicken? If so how long do they need to be isolated to stop?

[dragonflight288]

DPSSOC wrote...

Again at the peak of their civilization the elves couldn't muster a strong enough defence, the humans have only gotten stronger while the elves have diminished I really don't think they could muster stronger defenses if they wanted to.

Actually just thought of something, would elves living among humans cause those who aren't to Quicken? If so how long do they need to be isolated to stop?

At their peak, they were able to turn back one of the strongest nations in Thedas, drive them back, and sack their capital. When the Chantry declared an exalted march and all the nations fought the Dales, they were defeated and driven out. They were strong enough to handle one of the strongest nations, but not ALL the nations.

[Fallstar]

dragonflight288 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Again at the peak of their civilization the elves couldn't muster a strong enough defence, the humans have only gotten stronger while the elves have diminished I really don't think they could muster stronger defenses if they wanted to.

Actually just thought of something, would elves living among humans cause those who aren't to Quicken? If so how long do they need to be isolated to stop?

At their peak, they were able to turn back one of the strongest nations in Thedas, drive them back, and sack their capital. When the Chantry declared an exalted march and all the nations fought the Dales, they were defeated and driven out. They were strong enough to handle one of the strongest nations, but not ALL the nations.

Even then, I would argue the elves weren't at the peak of their civilization. The time of Arlathan, where everyone was an immortal mage, would be more the peak in my opinion.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish have mages, like Velanna, who might ally with an enemy of the Orlesians, the Chantry, and the templars. I can see some Dalish throwing their lot with the mages. Perhaps some city elves will be like Pol, and leave the Alienage for the opportunity of a better life with the clans. Perhaps the promise of getting back the Dales could lure more elves.

One slight problem: the Dalish can be real morons about blood magic use, which could cause issues with the Resolutionists and the like. Presumably "cleaner" mages would act as liasions.

Technically, the Sabrae clan acts that way because Marethari poisoned the entire clan against her. I imagine some clans might care more about getting a homeland for the People, rather than the methods used by the rebel mages in defeating the templar armies. This is an opportunity to change their fortune, instead of living by a meager existance that is slowly dwindling away from them with each passing century.

I wonder how Merrill might be viewed by some of the Dalish if she opposed the templars. Hawke can be a hero to the mages for showing that the templars could be defied in going against the Right of Annulment at the very heart of templar power over eastern Thedads. I think, with the Sabrae clan gone, the stories of a Dalish mage taking on templars might take some level of meaning with mages like Velanna, who might be willing to fight. Anders says at one point to an apostate Hawke who decided to side with the mages, that he is the leader their people have been waiting centuries for. If Merrill romanced Hawke and was at his side, perhaps some of the Dalish might rally around Merrill as a similar symbol for the People?

Perhaps some elves from the Alienages would follow Pol's example, and join the Dalish.

[Xilizhra]

What would happen, then, if the Sabrae clan survived?

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

What would happen, then, if the Sabrae clan survived?

The clan has been poisoned against Merrill by Marethari for years, so I would see their existance being detrimental to any leadership role Merrill might take among the other clans.

I think Merrill's exposure to Pol and the other elves in the Alienage would allow her to facilitate a mediator role between the Dalish elves and any Alienage elves who would join the resistance to fight for their rights (especially if they didn't want to adopt the same beliefs as their nomadic brethren).

Regardless of Merrill's potential involvement, I think being proactive about their rights is better than hoping for humans to stop being racist towards them.

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

Again at the peak of their civilization the elves couldn't muster a strong enough defence, the humans have only gotten stronger while the elves have diminished I really don't think they could muster stronger defenses if they wanted to.

Actually just thought of something, would elves living among humans cause those who aren't to Quicken? If so how long do they need to be isolated to stop?

Scholars have speculated that Arlathan was facing problems prior to the invasion by Tevinter IIRC, and the Elves of the Dales almost took down Orlais -- one of the most powerful expansionistic and militant countries in Thedas -- on their own. The problem arose when the Chantry called for an Exalted March against them, prompting other nations to fight the Elves.

I'm reminded of an episode of Burn Notice where Michael's narration talks about how some of the most famous battles in history were those of Thermopylae and the Alamo, and that they were famous not because they won but because they fought bravely and lost.

Same deal here, once the Chantry became involved. The Elves of the Dales were severely outnumbered and though they fought bravely, they died.

Rajmael -- one of the Elven generals of the time -- hurled his axe The Veshialle at his enemies before leaping to his death over Forlorn Falls. Interestingly enough, it seems the Chantry has painted him as a repentant convert, as the Chanter outside of Lothering's Chantry will say...

And so Rajmael in the heathen temple recanted.

Which I highly doubt to be true, because if he recanted his beliefs he wouldn't have thrown himself off a cliff as opposed to surrendering to his enemies and telling them he recanted.

[DPSSOC]

DuskWarden wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Again at the peak of their civilization the elves couldn't muster a strong enough defence, the humans have only gotten stronger while the elves have diminished I really don't think they could muster stronger defenses if they wanted to.

Actually just thought of something, would elves living among humans cause those who aren't to Quicken? If so how long do they need to be isolated to stop?

At their peak, they were able to turn back one of the strongest nations in Thedas, drive them back, and sack their capital. When the Chantry declared an exalted march and all the nations fought the Dales, they were defeated and driven out. They were strong enough to handle one of the strongest nations, but not ALL the nations.

Even then, I would argue the elves weren't at the peak of their civilization. The time of Arlathan, where everyone was an immortal mage, would be more the peak in my opinion.

That's what I was thinking of.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I'm clearly silly. I just confirmed that the thing about the Dalish living longer isn't in an interview at all: Lanaya mentions it in DAO. She also refers to Zathrian living for centuries as "unusual," not "a bizarre phenomenon clearly indicative of some other form of immortality"; hence, I conclude that the Dalish can live far longer than city elves, much moreso than would be indicated only by the differences in living conditions. Thus, it would seem that the Quickening can certainly weaken, and may one day vanish altogether.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, I'm clearly silly.

Not at all. The developers have also mentioned that the Dalish live longer - they simply stressed that they don't live for centuries like the Tolkien elves.

[Lazy Jer]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which I highly doubt to be true, because if he recanted his beliefs he wouldn't have thrown himself off a cliff as opposed to surrendering to his enemies and telling them he recanted.

Maybe he slipped and fell.

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Which I highly doubt to be true, because if he recanted his beliefs he wouldn't have thrown himself off a cliff as opposed to surrendering to his enemies and telling them he recanted.

Maybe he slipped and fell.

Or maybe the Chantry figured they'd twist the truth a little to suit their needs. I personally feel that a Dalish killing himself instead of allowing himself to be subjected to human rule is very realistic.

[Lazy Jer]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
Maybe he slipped and fell.

Or maybe the Chantry figured they'd twist the truth a little to suit their needs. I personally feel that a Dalish killing himself instead of allowing himself to be subjected to human rule is very realistic.

Eh...the Chantry's going to say he was repenting, the Daleish are going to say he was a hero.  The way I figure it the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...
Maybe he slipped and fell.

Or maybe the Chantry figured they'd twist the truth a little to suit their needs. I personally feel that a Dalish killing himself instead of allowing himself to be subjected to human rule is very realistic.

Eh...the Chantry's going to say he was repenting, the Daleish are going to say he was a hero.  The way I figure it the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Good point.

[Xilizhra]

Isn't that some kind of fallacy? I forget the name, but it's to just assume that something is in the middle between two positions when there's no way of discerning it. Either side could and would lie completely about the incident to make it support their own position. I personally don't think many people would jump off a cliff right after converting, and hence believe the Dalish side of the matter.

[TEWR]

Technically I wouldn't even call it the Dalish side of the matter. It's an item description, which I take to be lore. Just like the Collective Arming Cowl says that a group of Mages improve the perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry gets involved.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't that some kind of fallacy? I forget the name, but it's to just assume that something is in the middle between two positions when there's no way of discerning it. Either side could and would lie completely about the incident to make it support their own position. I personally don't think many people would jump off a cliff right after converting, and hence believe the Dalish side of the matter.

It's just called the Middle Ground Fallacy.  (It has other names, but why not just be straightfoward, eh?)

I love this website: http://www.nizkor.or...dle-ground.html

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't that some kind of fallacy? I forget the name, but it's to just assume that something is in the middle between two positions when there's no way of discerning it. Either side could and would lie completely about the incident to make it support their own position. I personally don't think many people would jump off a cliff right after converting, and hence believe the Dalish side of the matter.

It's just called the Middle Ground Fallacy.  (It has other names, but why not just be straightfoward, eh?)

I love this website: http://www.nizkor.or...dle-ground.html

What I'm saying, though, doesn't have that much to do with the Middle Ground Fallacy.  What I'm saying is that if you take a look at an event, in this case the guy jumping off the cliff.  There could be any number of reasons why he would have done that.  It could be he was dejected at his failure and couldn't deal with it, it could be that he didn't want to get captured alive, it could be any number of things.

What I'm saying is that that event is going to be romantisized by the Daleish and the Chantry is going to downplay it.  It's what happens anytime someone with an agend describes events.