394 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

I don't see how the elves in alienages can really help,other than in Fereldan.

Would be best to have a bunch of elves start a new town, maybe? Make it prosperous. There just needs to be some elf landlords I guess is the bottom line. I don't know what would be best course of action. Rebellion sounds like the worst idea.

Or, just let Zevran live, make him grand master of assassins in Antiva, probably see improvement of elves in Antiva, maybe. Or have Alistair be king and seems like elves have more voice in Fereldan at least.

[Plaintiff]

General User wrote...

If you think that's what I was suggesting, them you missed the point by, well... A LOT.

The elves wouldn't be appeasing "the irrational bigotry of the majority" (not that the majority of persons in Thedas are irrational bigots in the first place), but demonstrating just how irrational it truely is.

And whether you find it ridiculous/insulting or not, that's how positive, lasting social change happens.

You acknowledge that bigotry is irrational, which is great. But irrational people do not suddenly become rational just because the object of their hatred is a model citizen.

A man who hates elves will not look at an elf joining the army and think "perhaps I misjudged them". He will look upon that elf and think "I can't believe they're letting those filthy knife-ears join the army". The elf will not have gained esteem in the eyes of the irrational bigot, but the army will have lost it.

Consider that in our own society, serving in the military is itself a "right" that women and homosexuals were denied until fairly recently, due to our own irrational bigotry.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that the same is true for elves in Thedas. There are only a few at Ostagar besides the Warden, and to the best of my recollection, they are all servants, not soldiers. So, the option of gaining respect through military service is not even open to them in the first place.

Historically, behaving yourself and waiting for the administration to change its mind has never gotten anyone anywhere. Lasting social change has only ever been affected by openly challenging the current view. Attempting to join the army might be a positive step for elves, but only because being able to join the army would be a sign of progress in and of itself.

[Daerog]

Plaintiff wrote...
And? I don't support or accept the behaviour of the Romans, and I'm pretty sure you don't either. We are able to look back and realise that just because some things were historically prevalent doesn't mean that they are okay. In fact, they were just as wrong then as they are now.

Not just wrong, but completely inexcusable. Logical thought existed in all periods of our own history, and it exists in Thedas now, so there has never been any justification for bigotry. We as viewers should not be less critical of Thedas just because "it's set in ye olde times".

From a purely narrative perspective, bigotry is needed. It creates verisimilitude and is an important theme of the Dragon Age universe. Pretending that the people of Thedas are somehow immune to bigotry would be lazy writing. But that doesn't make bigotry okay, it just makes Thedas a terrible place.

Logical thought exists, ya, but so does greed (greed for power, dominance, whatever). Modern times isn't perfect either of course, Civil Rights movement in US wasn't that long ago. So, "ye old times" or modern times (even today), doesn't matter, if a minority is currently being oppressed, it takes work to change it.

sure, be critical, despise the humans and their treatment of elves, but the question is not opinion, but what can be done? I'm not excusing the treatment of the elves, it is horrible, the Romans were horrible as well, I'm not excusing that stuff. Greed blinds people, and greed seems more prevalent than logic in all periods of our own history.

It sucks that people do have to work harder, it isn't right, it shouldn't be that way, but as long as greed exists, that's what's going to happen.

Edit: Joining military isn't that crazy of an idea, though. Traditionally, that is where change happens first. Starts there, and moves to the citizens.

Edit2: Doesn't have to start there, of course, just traditionally. Could just start in streets or Fereldan court.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:57 .

[Daerog]

Plaintiff wrote...

 Attempting to join the army might be a positive step for elves, but only because being able to join the army would be a sign of progress in and of itself.

And with the world going to hell in a hand basket, the crowns opening up their ranks to elves seems likely... maybe not all the crowns.

Elves did fight in Fereldan (Loghain had a bunch under him), during rebellion, didn't change much, though. Still, at least Alistair gives the elves a voice.

They could go Gandhi, but not sure how much economic pressure they can make at this time.

[General User]

Plaintiff wrote...

You acknowledge that bigotry is irrational, which is great. But irrational people do not suddenly become rational just because the object of their hatred is a model citizen.

Maybe not.  But rational people have often been known to abandon bigotry when it is consistently demonstrated to be irrational.

Plaintiff wrote...

A man who hates elves will not look at an elf joining the army and think "perhaps I misjudged them". He will look upon that elf and think "I can't believe they're letting those filthy knife-ears join the army". The elf will not have gained esteem in the eyes of the irrational bigot, but the army will have lost it.

A man who hates elves?  Maybe, maybe not.  But we aren't going for him.  We're going for the decent man who was willing to accept indecency because "that just the way things are."  And for the man who would like to help change things for the elves, but just never had any real reason worth "rocking the boat" for.  And for the man that had never given the elves much thought at all.  Focus on those people and the "haters" will resolve themselves. 

Plaintiff wrote...

Consider that in our own society, serving in the military is itself a "right" that women and homosexuals were denied until fairly recently, due to our own irrational bigotry.

By "our own society" I assume you mean the United States?  If so, I'd suggest you refrain from such references.  You don't seem to have a very good grasp of current or former US military policy.

Plaintiff wrote...

In fact, I'm fairly certain that the same is true for elves in Thedas. There are only a few at Ostagar besides the Warden, and to the best of my recollection, they are all servants, not soldiers. So, the option of gaining respect through military service is not even open to them in the first place.

Then that's the first hurdle right there.  Didn't you see Glory?

Plaintiff wrote...

Historically, behaving yourself and waiting for the administration to change its mind has never gotten anyone anywhere. Lasting social change has only ever been affected by openly challenging the current view. Attempting to join the army might be a positive step for elves, but only because being able to join the army would be a sign of progress in and of itself.

There are few things, if any, that could "challenge the current view" more.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What are these 'civil rights' you speak of? What do they derive from? Who in Thedas has them?

Elves are second class citizens, segregated from everyone else and forced to live in poverty. They are not allowed to practice their own religion, and if they are harmed by a human the authorities look the other way. To give them civil rights would mean they would be legally treated like they are not inferior to humans.

Treating everyone the same isn't the same as civil rights, but this misses the point that even humans in Thedas live in a highly stratified society and without a uniform or consistent concept of individual rights as we know them.  Elves are treated worse than the plebes, but the plebes aren't first-class citizens either: if anything the commoners are second class, and city elves third-class.

Thedas is largely a feudal system, at the end of the day.

To speak generally, humans in Thedas have them, though there are some special cases (for instance, that Orlesian woman who fled Orlais because a Chevalier tried to rape her).

It's the other way around, really. Not everyone goes to the extreme of Orlais, but the limiting factor on nobility abuses is 'who they ****** off', not a legal doctrine of innate rights owed to The People. The main place burdened with law and procedure is the democracy of Orzamar... and that comes with some huge and obvious caveats.

[rapscallioness]

So, with the Elves, are they forced to stay in the Alienages? I remember a few that seemed to be able to come and go from the Dalish. Were they the exception?

edit: if they are being forced, and I were them, frankly I'd rebel right now. Right now, right now. Not right now later. Their enemy is not going to be weaker any time soon.

The Chantry, Orlais, Templars all is in disarray. Their own internal conflicts threatening to end them. Now is a s good a time as any to bust out.

But not everyone is going to want to do that. It could be a difficult transition. And what if they've embraced Andraste? Are the Dalish going to want, demand, they convert?

Modifié par rapscallioness, 14 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[Daerog]

Nizaris1 wrote...

So, compared with City Elf condition...it must be like that...that is a Messiah who is capable to unite all Elves, and wage war against human to free their brothers and sisters in Alienage.

Well, that's probably how the Dalish see it. Not sure on city elves, some don't care about the elves as a single people, just citizens who are part of different nations. Zevran and Fenris come to mind.

Well, actually, this kind of works for the Qunari as well. The Qun will unite the elves, and then there will be no elves, there will just be qunari.

[Daerog]

Nizaris1 wrote...


Compared with City Elf, it will be the same solution

Not much of a solution if it fails. You might as well bring up Native Americans in the US as well if you are bringing up palestine as an example. Although, they aren't exactly like the city elves, as the elves have no land at all.

Edit: Nor do all elves want their own nation, seems to be only the Dalish are asking for it, not the city elves. But it was mentioned in OP how elves in some storyline could make their own kingdom. They don't need that to have rights, but whatever.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 14 juillet 2012 - 03:53 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Treating everyone the same isn't the same as civil rights, but this misses the point that even humans in Thedas live in a highly stratified society and without a uniform or consistent concept of individual rights as we know them.  Elves are treated worse than the plebes, but the plebes aren't first-class citizens either: if anything the commoners are second class, and city elves third-class.

Thedas is largely a feudal system, at the end of the day.

It's the other way around, really. Not everyone goes to the extreme of Orlais, but the limiting factor on nobility abuses is 'who they ****** off', not a legal doctrine of innate rights owed to The People. The main place burdened with law and procedure is the democracy of Orzamar... and that comes with some huge and obvious caveats.

Of course I realize that royalty and nobility while always have the upper hand and be considered above commoners, but I was mainly speaking that elves and human commoners should be on the same accord. Right now it's like a food chain: the royals and noble belittle the commoners, and the commoners are unjust against the elves. What I'm aiming for is for elves and commoners to be one and the same. The Monarchy will always be above them. That's not right either, but that will never change until Thedas creates a democracy that's how it will be.

I always lump elves, mages, and the casteless dwarves in the same category (the oppressed), but with Bhelen as the king of Orzammar things get better for them. We'll see how the mage works out.

rapscallioness wrote...

So, with the Elves, are they
forced to stay in the Alienages? I remember a few that seemed to be able
to come and go from the Dalish. Were they the exception?

edit:
if they are being forced, and I were them, frankly I'd rebel right now.
Right now, right now. Not right now later. Their enemy is not going to
be weaker any time soon.

The Chantry, Orlais, Templars all is in
disarray. Their own internal conflicts threatening to end them. Now is a
s good a time as any to bust out.

But not everyone is going to
want to do that. It could be a difficult transition. And what if they've
embraced Andraste? Are the Dalish going to want, demand, they convert?

They aren't forced to live in Alienages, per se, but I've read in codexes that in some circumstances if an elven family moves out of an Alienage there were mysterious "fires". So, I guess it depends on the city. It's probably racists thinking elves are being "uppity" for living outside the Alienage.

I do agree that if there will be a rebellion, the perfect time would be now, with everyone distracted with the mages.

At this point I think the Dalish just want their own land, and would be thinking of themselves when allying with the city elves. Though I think most would convert willingly merely out of curiosity or spite of the humans.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...


Of course I realize that royalty and nobility while always have the upper hand and be considered above commoners, but I was mainly speaking that elves and human commoners should be on the same accord. Right now it's like a food chain: the royals and noble belittle the commoners, and the commoners are unjust against the elves. What I'm aiming for is for elves and commoners to be one and the same. The Monarchy will always be above them. That's not right either, but that will never change until Thedas creates a democracy that's how it will be.

The feudal caste system is more than nobility and commoners. You also have merchants, beuracrats, land owners vs. renters, and a good number of other divids. You'll also encounter the great differences between a Privie Scrubber and a lowly Privey Scrubber Third class.

The last part's an exageration, but there's not a simble binary/trinary caste system: the entire society is stratified, even amongst the commoners.

I always lump elves, mages, and the casteless dwarves in the same category (the oppressed), but with Bhelen as the king of Orzammar things get better for them. We'll see how the mage works out.

That is a horrible category for societal breakdown because those groups have very little in common past the superficial label you assigned.

The Mage Oppression is based on very real capabilities, and entails a standard of living that most of the non-oppressed people of Thedas would (and some do) kill, murder, cheat, and steal in order to approach. The mages are an enclave, not an undercast, and live vastly different lives and societal roles than the city-elves.  Both mages and city elves are likewise incompatible with the nature of the casteless, who have a different and far-more culture-specific acceptence issue that is unique to one area.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

I don't think Chantry law speaks particularly speaks on City Elf treatment, beyond requiring that they be allowed a place in human cities if they follow the Maker. They don't particularly seem to justify their second class citizen status, but nor do they do anything to stop it.

I think that's spot on.  If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

The major problem with this is that it only really works if you're already integrated into the main society, which city elves... kind of are, but I don't trust it being enough. If you're not integrated, the only real option is violence, and since elves can really only interact with humans as servants if they're doing anything legal, the odds are rather low that they can accomplish anything peacefully. Luckily, the mage rebellion seems to be tearing through mainstream society at the moment, although a lot of city elves are rather heinously complacent, which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't drag down the ones who weren't. What the elves need is an opportunity, and I hope the mage war can provide this.

[Zetheria Tabris]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That is a horrible category for societal breakdown because those groups have very little in common past the superficial label you assigned.

The Mage Oppression is based on very real capabilities, and entails a standard of living that most of the non-oppressed people of Thedas would (and some do) kill, murder, cheat, and steal in order to approach. The mages are an enclave, not an undercast, and live vastly different lives and societal roles than the city-elves.  Both mages and city elves are likewise incompatible with the nature of the casteless, who have a different and far-more culture-specific acceptence issue that is unique to one area.

I never said one group had it better than the other, or that they are similiar. The fact is they are all hated or oppressed for something they were born into; why or how is irrelevant. Just because mages are fed and educated doesn't make them better off than elves or the casteless - they have other problems, like never being allowed to go outside, being ripped apart from their family, the fear of being raped or turned unjustly tranquil. They all have it pretty sucky.

[dragonflight288]

General User wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

The elves are good carpenters, are they not? They could make weapons and trade/sell them, and that which may interest a politician if they're in need of more trading outposts, though I suppose dwarves would value wood more than a human would.

General User wrote...

If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

Deserve them by doing...what, exactly?

Traditionally?  Mainly be military service.  Join the King's army.

Would seem like a decent idea except for a couple of problems.

One, the humans don't want elves to be anything more than servants. They don't want them in the army. This is established in many occasions by the general attitude toward elves. Take the merchant we meet before going to Honnleath to revive Shale. He's complaining about his mule running off and sent the elf to fetch it, as if it's no big deal. The quartermaster at Ostagar most certainly didn't care for elves, and they comment that they had to keep working or get the switch. There's Vaughn commenting that elves sometimes start thinking that they are people, and need to be reminded that they aren't.

Then we have elves who don't want to rise above servant status because they think it's completely impossible. That one handmaiden in the Cousland origin story is a city elf and she goes out of her way to explain that she doesn't want her daughter to think they can rise above servant either because that's the highest they can achieve.

We have codex entries that suggest that despite how bad things are for them in Ferelden, it's even worse for them in Orlais.

Ironically, when it comes to racial equality, it's the Qunari who are on top of that.

[nightscrawl]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

When and how are the city elves going to revolt against the way they are treated? Is it impossible due to the lack of means (not allowed to have weapons, low morale, many other obstacles) and their extremely strong enemy? Would the Dalish help? Who would be their other allies, assuming they found some?

In any situation of oppression there will always be those among the non-oppressed who would be willing to help in some way. It was true for the African American slaves, it was true for the overworked poor living in filthy conditions during the Industrial Revolution, it was true for the Jews during the Holocaust, it has been true throughout the Arab Spring. The effectiveness and degree of the help varies on a case-by-case basis, but there is always someone who cares. And not just a "oh, poor them" type of caring either. The type of caring that puts their homes, their jobs, their very lives and those of their families, in danger.

Wulfram wrote...

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

The main problem I see with staging their own rebellion is that the city elf areas we've seen have never been very large. I've always gotten the impression, in DAO and especially DA2, that if the human lords wanted to, they could simply go in with a score of soldiers and wipe out the entire place if they wanted. Sure, some nobles might not be pleased for real ethical reasons, others simply because they feel it makes them look good to speak out against such an act, and others only because of religious/"being moral is my ticket to the Maker's side" reasons. But then after it was done and people fussed, hollered, carried on, talked heatedly at noble dinners, it would be forgotten about. What's done is done. I mean, they were only elves, right?

To your second point though, what kind of an asset are they? Other than simply existing in their hovels, what do they do? I somehow doubt the moral support of a bunch of elves carries much weight with anyone.


What I would like to know is if it's illegal for city elves to go off and establish their own city somewhere else. I'm sure there are many who have no desire to run away and live among the Dalish elves, as I'm sure that there are Dalish who don't want some of the city elves there.

The whole alienage thing is just disgusting, I wish something could be done about it in a future game that would end up influencing all city alienages everywhere.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...


I never said one group had it better than the other, or that they are similiar. The fact is they are all hated or oppressed for something they were born into; why or how is irrelevant. Just because mages are fed and educated doesn't make them better off than elves or the casteless - they have other problems, like never being allowed to go outside, being ripped apart from their family, the fear of being raped or turned unjustly tranquil. They all have it pretty sucky.

There is bad, and there is worse. Relative status is the entire point of an underclass, and underclasses.

[Ausstig]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What are these 'civil rights' you speak of? What do they derive from? Who in Thedas has them?

Elves are second class citizens, segregated from everyone else and forced to live in poverty. They are not allowed to practice their own religion, and if they are harmed by a human the authorities look the other way. To give them civil rights would mean they would be legally treated like they are not inferior to humans.

To speak generally, humans in Thedas have them, though there are some special cases (for instance, that Orlesian woman who fled Orlais because a Chevalier tried to rape her).

Just a point they aren't forced to live in an over crowded slum, most just don't want to leave. 

They are kind of like Blacks in the US or Jews in Europe. It will not change over night, maybe not for hundreds of years. 

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

I don't think Chantry law speaks particularly speaks on City Elf treatment, beyond requiring that they be allowed a place in human cities if they follow the Maker. They don't particularly seem to justify their second class citizen status, but nor do they do anything to stop it.

I think that's spot on.  If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

The major problem with this is that it only really works if you're already integrated into the main society, which city elves... kind of are, but I don't trust it being enough. If you're not integrated, the only real option is violence, and since elves can really only interact with humans as servants if they're doing anything legal, the odds are rather low that they can accomplish anything peacefully. Luckily, the mage rebellion seems to be tearing through mainstream society at the moment, although a lot of city elves are rather heinously complacent, which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't drag down the ones who weren't. What the elves need is an opportunity, and I hope the mage war can provide this.

HA!  Sounds like you should send resume to the Committee of Public Safety!

No, but seriously, there's violence and there's violence.  Like Babylon 5 taught us, you must first ask yourself these two questions: "Who are you?" and "What do you want?"

If your theoretical self should decide that who you are is an elf, nothing more, and that all you want is more/better "stuff" for yourself and other elves, then by all means, jump on the violent rebellion train.  It'll either get you what you want... or wreck, killing everyone on board.  Roll 'dem dice!

But if your theoretical self should decide that being an elf is only part of what you are (and far from the most important part at that), that what you really are is a wife, mother, sister, neighbor, friend.  And that what you really want is a world where the faithful receive honor, the weak receive protection, and the wronged receive justice, all regardless of their race or wealth or magical talent or anything else you care to name, then violent rebellion is simply not an option.  The ol' violent rebellion train just don't do there.

But if it's violence you seek then fear not, you shall have it!  Thedas is tearing itself apart form within and wolves of every stripe and colour circle eagerly, waiting for their chance to pounce.  Soon, perhaps as never before, Thedas will need defenders.  Men and women, humans, elves, and dwarves, warriors and mages, who are willing to put aside their past contention and do what is best for the common good of all.  Are you such a person?  I think you are. 

You want a better world?  You want to fight for that better world?  Then do it.  Here's your chance: Join the King's Army.*

*(Joining the Grey Wardens would also be acceptable)

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

One, the humans don't want elves to be anything more than servants. They don't want them in the army.

This is established in many occasions by the general attitude toward elves.

So won't they be surprised when elven units start forming?  All you'd need is a powerful noble to sponsor the first elven companies.  I can think of four likely candidates off the top of my head: King Alistair, Queen Arnora, Teyrn Fergus Cousland, and the Arl of Redcliffe

dragonflight288 wrote...

Take the merchant we meet before going to Honnleath to revive Shale. He's complaining about his mule running off and sent the elf to fetch it, as if it's no big deal.

A boss gave instructions to his employee.  That is no big deal. 

dragonflight288 wrote...

The quartermaster at Ostagar most certainly didn't care for elves, and they comment that they had to keep working or get the switch.

That's actually pretty standard, at least it was in Medieval/Post-Medieval human society.

dragonflight288 wrote...

There's Vaughn commenting that elves sometimes start thinking that they are people, and need to be reminded that they aren't.

A leader abusing his power and authority.  Nothing new there.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Then we have elves who don't want to rise above servant status because they think it's completely impossible. That one handmaiden in the Cousland origin story is a city elf and she goes out of her way to explain that she doesn't want her daughter to think they can rise above servant either because that's the highest they can achieve.

*shrug*  There's nothing wrong with living a modest life of humble service.  And the fact is, even compared to a lot of humans, a noble's servants did have a farily sweet gig in a lot of ways.  Heavily depenedent of course on the nature of the noble they are serving.

dragonflight288 wrote...

We have codex entries that suggest that despite how bad things are for them in Ferelden, it's even worse for them in Orlais.

Everything is worse for everyone in Orlais.  Unless you happen to be a chevalier or a connoiseur of fine wines and cheeses.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ironically, when it comes to racial equality, it's the Qunari who are on top of that.

Aye.  I think that the qunari can easily be made into a good example of how focusing too intently on any one aspect of social reform, however noble it may be, can produce a nightmare society.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[gds76]

I don't think the elves are in any position to rebel. The alienages are small, unorganized, poor and unarmed. I really don't see how they could revolt with any success. Their best hope is wait for a Reformer from within the nobility.