394 réponses à ce sujet

[Zetheria Tabris]

General User wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Take the merchant we meet before going to Honnleath to revive Shale. He's complaining about his mule running off and sent the elf to fetch it, as if it's no big deal.

A boss gave instructions to his employee.  That is no big deal. 

dragonflight288 wrote...

There's Vaughn commenting that elves sometimes start thinking that they are people, and need to be reminded that they aren't.

A leader abusing his power and authority.  Nothing new there.

dragonflight288 wrote...

Then we have elves who don't want to rise above servant status because they think it's completely impossible. That one handmaiden in the Cousland origin story is a city elf and she goes out of her way to explain that she doesn't want her daughter to think they can rise above servant either because that's the highest they can achieve.

*shrug*  There's nothing wrong with living a modest life of humble service.  And the fact is, even compared to a lot of humans, a noble's servants did have a farily sweet gig in a lot of ways.  Heavily depenedent of course on the nature of the noble they are serving.

dragonflight288 wrote...

We have codex entries that suggest that despite how bad things are for them in Ferelden, it's even worse for them in Orlais.

Everything is worse for everyone in Orlais.  Unless you happen to be a chevalier or a connoiseur of fine wines and cheeses.

I think you missed the point of dragonflight's post, especially about the Vaughan thing.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

You want a better world?  You want to fight for that better world?  Then do it.  Here's your chance: Join the King's Army.*

*(Joining the Grey Wardens would also be acceptable)

Considering the examples of the elven Warden Garahel stopping the Fourth Blight and the Night Elves during Maric's rebellion didn't change anything for the elves, I don't think the plight of the elves will change unless they do something about it. Even Anders says the elves should rise up with the mages, and fight for their rights.

[thats1evildude]

I was thinking the other night that the best chance for the elves to gain freedom would be to take over the Tevinter Imperium. The Senate becomes split by outside events, and a slave rebellion that they would normally unite to put down manages to gain momentum. The threat of outside intervention is minimal, because honestly, who would fight to restore the Magister Lords to power?

"One day, things will change, and the magisters will see just how fragile their hold is."
-Fenris

[Lazy Jer]

Elven rebellion, huh?  That would have to depend on two factors: who and where?

The who is a clear question of Daleish or City.  If the Daleish rebel it's probably going to be more or less in the form of guerrilla attacks here and there because they really don't have the resources or organization for a straight up head-bash against the more organized kingdoms.

If the City Elves rebell...well that's difficult isn't it?  The reason why it's difficult, Arl Howe.  The elves in Denirum had what could loosely be termed as a rebellion (i.e. bumping off the old Arl's son and a handfull of guards) and Arl Howe decided it was the medieval equivalant of Clobberin' Time.  He sent soldiers in to "cull the herd" to use his own words (this, more then anything, is why people don't invite him to their parties).  As dastardly as Arl Howe is, he's probably not the only person that's going to have that idea.

Both?  This is a possibility, I suppose.  If elves from one area hear about the rebellion in another there might be those who'd want to join the effort, but then again there might not.  The Daleish have already displayed their distain for city elves, so a lot of them may decide "forget 'em".

The other question is "where"?  If it's in Ferelden then it depends greatly on the events of DA:O.  At the end of my first play-through, for example, the Alienage has it's own Bann (now that Bann is Shianni, Maker help us, but still).  What's more the King at the end of my playthough was Alistair who doesn't strike me as the kind of King that would ferment rebellion.  Especially after I dragged him through the Alienage.

Kirkwall is another option, I suppose.  But a lot of the elves who would have joined such a rebellion end up getting killed by backing the wrong horse in the Qunari vs. Kirkwall battle royal in Act 2.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 juillet 2012 - 05:57 .

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

You want a better world?  You want to fight for that better world?  Then do it.  Here's your chance: Join the King's Army.*

*(Joining the Grey Wardens would also be acceptable)

Considering the examples of the elven Warden Garahel stopping the Fourth Blight and the Night Elves during Maric's rebellion didn't change anything for the elves, I don't think the plight of the elves will change unless they do something about it. Even Anders says the elves should rise up with the mages, and fight for their rights.

Social change is not a mechnical process.  You don't push a button and observe the effect before deciding whether or not to continue.  It's very much a fluid process, and the effects of single persons or events (like Garahel) often aren't felt until generations later.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:23 .

[General User]

Faerunner wrote...

Not to mention that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call for arms and Shartan led her elven army, and the elves continued to help humans win freedom from Tevinter magisters even after Andraste and Shartan were betrayed and executed.

The elves fought for Andraste and received a shiny new homeland as a result. 

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:12 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Not to mention that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call for arms and Shartan led her elven army, and the elves continued to help humans win freedom from Tevinter magisters even after Andraste and Shartan were betrayed and executed.

The elves fought for Andraste and received a shiny new homeland as a result. 

And now it belongs to Orlais.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Not to mention that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call for arms and Shartan led her elven army, and the elves continued to help humans win freedom from Tevinter magisters even after Andraste and Shartan were betrayed and executed.

The elves fought for Andraste and received a shiny new homeland as a result. 

And now it belongs to Orlais.

True.  That subsequent generations would, for lack of a better term, "**** it all up" doesn't change the fact that progess was made.  Again, social change is a fluid process.

[Lazy Jer]

For elves to gain equality in the cities is going to require pushing for it. It's going to require elves to speak up when injustice occurs. It's going to require their voices being heard. If Denirum doesn't already have a bann for the Alienage, then they need to push for it. They need to push for the option to move out of the Alienage. Basically it's going to require challenging the notion that they are second-class citizens by nature of their birth.

[General User]

Faerunner wrote...

General User wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Not to mention that the elves were the first to answer Andraste's call for arms and Shartan led her elven army, and the elves continued to help humans win freedom from Tevinter magisters even after Andraste and Shartan were betrayed and executed.

The elves fought for Andraste and received a shiny new homeland as a result. 

And then the homeland was taken back and the elves re-subjugated into human cities as slaves in all but name.

The reason that Alienages and Dalish clans exist is because of that broken promise. It didn't change the way humans treated elves, it didn't change the way elves were treated in human societies, and it didn't improve the elves' condition any.

That is such a one-sided, simplistic, and hyperbolic line of thought, that I'm tempeted to just blow it off entirely.  But, just in case...

First, the elves were not blameless in the fall of the Dales.  They took their new homeland and used it to build on a policy of isolationism and racial supremacy.  That such nation lasted even one generation next door to an expansionist, fundamentalist society like the Orlesian Empire without one destroying the other is a not-so-minor miracle.

Second, the rise and fall of the Dales very much did change how humans and elves related to one another, in a very fundamental way.  Whereas, before the Fall of the Dales humans and elves lived in separate societes and eyed each other with mutal hostility and suspicion (much as humans and dalish still do), after the fall elves had to be integrated into human societies.  For the first time outside of the Tevinter Imperium, elves and humans were again parts of the same society, the same respective overarching national cultures.

Third, and most important, no one can control what others do or what others think.  You can only control what you do and what you think.  Elves can't stop anyone from not liking them just because their elves.  What they can control is their own behavior.  The negative stereotype of the elves is that they are a bunch of dirty, lazy, useless, thieves.  The way to combat that stereotype is for the elves to be clean, hard-working, useful, and honest.  Some humans will see that the stereotype was wrong, and start treating elves "better."  In which case, great!   And some humans will cling to the stereotype despite the evidence that it is wrong.  In which case, fudge 'em and move on.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:52 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

That is such a one-sided, simplistic, and hyperbolic line of thought, that I'm tempeted to just blow it off entirely.  But, just in case...

First, the elves were not blameless in the fall of the Dales.  They took their new homeland and used it to build on a policy of isolationism and racial supremacy.  That such nation lasted even one generation next door to an expansionist, fundamentalist society like the Orlesian Empire without one destroying the other is a not-so-minor miracle.

They believe they are mortal because of humans, so they avoided contact. And they were under no obligation to act otherwise. As for racial superiority, there is no evidence the elves of the Dales felt this way.

General User wrote...

Second, the rise and fall of the Dales very much did change how humans and elves related to one another, in a very fundamental way.  Whereas, before the Fall of the Dales humans and elves lived in separate societes and eyed each other with mutal hostility and suspicion (much as humans and dalish still do), after the fall elves had to be integrated into human societies.  For the first time outside of the Tevinter Imperium, elves and humans were again parts of the same society, the same respective overarching national cultures.

Third, and most important, no one can control what others do or what others think.  You can only control what you do and what you think.  Elves can't stop anyone from not liking them just because their elves.  What they can control is their own behavior.  The negative stereotype of the elves is that they are a bunch of dirty, lazy, useless, thieves.  The way to combat that stereotype is for the elves to be clean, hard-working, useful, and honest.  Some humans will see that the stereotype was wrong, and start treating elves "better."  In which case, great!   And some humans will cling to the stereotype despite the evidence that it is wrong.  In which case, fudge 'em and move on.

Elves can be "purged" by law; humans burn down their homes if they try to live outside the Alienage; let's not pretend all they need to do is dress nice and work hard to change the minds of the people.

[dragonflight288]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The City elves aren't really in a position to revolt on their own. Their best chance would be to pick sides in someone elses conflict and hope to get rewarded for their support. But even there, they're not really a very valuable ally.

If I was them, I'd stick to being very obviously and closely loyal to the central government of whatvever Kingdom I happen to be in. If the government sees the elves as an asset, then they've got reason to look out for them.

I don't think Chantry law speaks particularly speaks on City Elf treatment, beyond requiring that they be allowed a place in human cities if they follow the Maker. They don't particularly seem to justify their second class citizen status, but nor do they do anything to stop it.

I think that's spot on.  If the elves want "civil rights" or "better treament" (whatever those mean in the context of Thedas), then they need to demonstrate beyond any doubt that they deserve them.

The major problem with this is that it only really works if you're already integrated into the main society, which city elves... kind of are, but I don't trust it being enough. If you're not integrated, the only real option is violence, and since elves can really only interact with humans as servants if they're doing anything legal, the odds are rather low that they can accomplish anything peacefully. Luckily, the mage rebellion seems to be tearing through mainstream society at the moment, although a lot of city elves are rather heinously complacent, which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't drag down the ones who weren't. What the elves need is an opportunity, and I hope the mage war can provide this.

HA!  Sounds like you should send resume to the Committee of Public Safety!

No, but seriously, there's violence and there's violence.  Like Babylon 5 taught us, you must first ask yourself these two questions: "Who are you?" and "What do you want?"

If your theoretical self should decide that who you are is an elf, nothing more, and that all you want is more/better "stuff" for yourself and other elves, then by all means, jump on the violent rebellion train.  It'll either get you what you want... or wreck, killing everyone on board.  Roll 'dem dice!

But if your theoretical self should decide that being an elf is only part of what you are (and far from the most important part at that), that what you really are is a wife, mother, sister, neighbor, friend.  And that what you really want is a world where the faithful receive honor, the weak receive protection, and the wronged receive justice, all regardless of their race or wealth or magical talent or anything else you care to name, then violent rebellion is simply not an option.  The ol' violent rebellion train just don't do there.

But if it's violence you seek then fear not, you shall have it!  Thedas is tearing itself apart form within and wolves of every stripe and colour circle eagerly, waiting for their chance to pounce.  Soon, perhaps as never before, Thedas will need defenders.  Men and women, humans, elves, and dwarves, warriors and mages, who are willing to put aside their past contention and do what is best for the common good of all.  Are you such a person?  I think you are. 

You want a better world?  You want to fight for that better world?  Then do it.  Here's your chance: Join the King's Army.*

*(Joining the Grey Wardens would also be acceptable)

You're forgetting the Uncle Eamon picture pointing at us.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for racial superiority, there is no evidence the elves of the Dales felt this way.

To this day, the elves still call humans "quick children". Lanaya admits this is arrogance from the part of the elves.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for racial superiority, there is no evidence the elves of the Dales felt this way.

To this day, the elves still call humans "quick children". Lanaya admits this is arrogance from the part of the elves.

That's true. And the Dalish have always held themselves superior than other races in the games. Yet they are also one of the weakest groups in Thedas. They are disorganized, small in number, have no home, little history to speak of that they can call true fact, and an over-inflated opinion of themselves in many instances.

Why would the Elves of the Dales be any different? They had an army that could best one of the mightiest empires in the world at the time (until an Exalted March was declared that banded several nations to support Orlais) and their own kingdom. More than they have now.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

They believe they are mortal because of humans, so they avoided contact. And they were under no obligation to act otherwise.

They the ancient dalish wanted to peacefully coexist with their human neighbors, then yes they were under an obligation to behave otherwise.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elves can be "purged" by law; humans burn down their homes if they try to live outside the Alienage; let's not pretend all they need to do is dress nice and work hard to change the minds of the people.

You say that like it's supposed to be easy!  Do you have any idea how hard it is for just regular old poor people to make something respectable of themselves?   Factor in the racial and legal system being arrayed against them and you're looking at the Mt. Everest of uphill battles! 

Launching some childish, violent uprising would positively be a piece of cake by comparison.  And just like Sten found out, that cake would be a lie.  Even if by some stupendous combination of miracles it were sucessfull, all it would do is touch off a whole 'nother round mutal hatred and recrimination.  The answer isn't to move the cycle forward; it's to get off the cycle.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:26 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for racial superiority, there is no evidence the elves of the Dales felt this way.

To this day, the elves still call humans "quick children". Lanaya admits this is arrogance from the part of the elves.

They called humans that because elves were immortal, and humans were mortal. The lore addresses this. You might be thinking of the term 'Shem' from the city elves.

As for modern Dalish, I don't disagree that some like that, but there's no evidence the elves of the Dales held themselves that way as a whole.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They believe they are mortal because of humans, so they avoided contact. And they were under no obligation to act otherwise.

They the ancient dalish wanted to peacefully coexist with their human neighbors, then yes they were under an obligation to behave otherwise.

Co-exist with an expansionist regime that conquered its neighbors?

According to the Dalish, the Chantry sent templars into the Dales when they kicked out their missionaries. Armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory.

[Zetheria Tabris]

General User wrote...

First, the elves were not blameless in the fall of the Dales.  They took
their new homeland and used it to build on a policy of isolationism and
racial supremacy.

The Dwarves are just as isolated (and I'm sure they think their superior as well), and no one gives them crap for it. What's your point?

Unless the elves triggered the war that happened with Orlais, only then are they to blame. And I'm sure most people would agree that the Chantry lied in saying they started it first.

What you have stated as a reason for their downfall is not illegal, nor is it a legitimate reason to start a war and take their second homeland from them. As it's been said, they isolated themselves because they were trying to regain their immortality, and exposure to humans would have stopped them from doing so.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Co-exist with an expansionist regime that conquered its neighbors?

Why not?  Several human nations managed to find various ways of coexisting with the Orlesian Empire.

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Dalish, the Chantry sent templars into the Dales when they kicked out their missionaries. Armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory.

Depending (among other factors) on exactly how vigorous the ancient Dalish were with the kicking, sending in soldiers could easily have been an appropriate response on the part of the Orlesians.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:34 .

[MisterJB]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
The Dwarves are just as isolated (and I'm sure they think their superior as well), and no one gives them crap for it. What's your point?

Dwarves engage in peaceful trading relations with their human neighbours. Add to that the fact humans have no interest in colonizing the deep roads and it's obvious why their isolationism works for them.
If the elves expect to share the surface with the humans, they must be willing to either make some concessions or war.

Unless the elves triggered the war that happened with Orlais, only then are they to blame. And I'm sure most people would agree that the Chantry lied in saying they started it first.

I disagree. I don't particularly believe they practiced human sacrifices but the elven attack on Red Crossing is an historical fact.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:42 .

[Fallstar]

Faerunner wrote...

I just don't see how mages rebelling is so realistic while elves can't do it.

Whilst I don't disagree, the city elves aren't all mages. Whereas a single mage is a force to be reckoned with, it'd be hard to even smuggle enough weapons into an Alienage. 

I do absolutely support the elves rebelling however. They deserve their own land. The world owes the elves a lot, what with Garahel and the Mahariel Warden both ending blights. And the Andrastian Chantry owes its existence to the elves, as it is highly unlikely Andraste's rebellion would have succeeded without them. Obviously the chantry forgets those things as soon as they become inconvenient.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Co-exist with an expansionist regime that conquered its neighbors?

Why not?  Several human nations managed to find various ways of coexisting with the Orlesian Empire.

Like Ferelden. Just ask Loghain.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Dalish, the Chantry sent templars into the Dales when they kicked out their missionaries. Armed and armored soldiers into sovereign territory.

Depending (among other factors) on exactly how vigorous the ancient Dalish were with the kicking, sending in soldiers could easily have been an appropriate response on the part of the Orlesians.

Who gave the missionaries the right to trespass on sovereign territory?