394 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
They called humans that because elves were immortal, and humans were mortal. The lore addresses this. You might be thinking of the term 'Shem' from the city elves.

As for modern Dalish, I don't disagree that some like that, but there's no evidence the elves of the Dales held themselves that way as a whole.

Shemlen is a racial slur with all of the usual negative connotations any racial slur carries that has been in use since Arlathan, same as knife-ears. To consider another people as "children" implies that yours are culturally superior. 

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...
I disagree. I don't particularly believe they practiced human sacrifices but the elven attack on Red Crossing is an historical fact.

That the village of Red Crossing was attacked might be a fact. Whether or not it was the elves who attacked it is anything but. That codex entry was written by Sister Petrine, a chantry scholar. Therefore she had a vested interest in making the elves look bad. Without significant corroborating evidence, it is then impossible to call anything in that codex "historical fact."

[MisterJB]

Just like the elves would prefer to think their homeland and "immortality" were unjustly stolen and not that they simply lost a war they helped start.

[Lazy Jer]

Okay, let's not pretend that the Daleish/Orlesian war was really about the missionaries. That was about rising tensions between Orlais and the Dales seasoned with a political excuse for landgrabbing. The missionaries getting kicked out was just an excuse for Orlais to pull in the Chantry and make it a religious matter.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:59 .

[Wulfram]

DuskWarden wrote...

That the village of Red Crossing was attacked might be a fact. Whether or not it was the elves who attacked it is anything but. That codex entry was written by Sister Petrine, a chantry scholar. Therefore she had a vested interest in making the elves look bad. Without significant corroborating evidence, it is then impossible to call anything in that codex "historical fact."

The City Elves also say Red Crossing was attacked, though they imply it was provoked.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They called humans that because elves were immortal, and humans were mortal. The lore addresses this. You might be thinking of the term 'Shem' from the city elves.

As for modern Dalish, I don't disagree that some like that, but there's no evidence the elves of the Dales held themselves that way as a whole.

Shemlen is a racial slur with all of the usual negative connotations any racial slur carries that has been in use since Arlathan, same as knife-ears. To consider another people as "children" implies that yours are culturally superior. 

So they are racist because they considered a young, mortal race to be "quick children"?

[MisterJB]

Yes. And they are racist to this day because they still consider the humans to be "quick children"

Perhaps our ways were quicker than theirs; tough I don't believe they were ever biologically immortal; but calling us children proves elves think their race superior.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes. And they are racist to this day because they still consider the humans to be "quick children"

Perhaps our ways were quicker than theirs; tough I don't believe they were ever biologically immortal; but calling us children proves elves think their race superior.

Some elves are racist, yes.  Some humans too, and some dwarves.  Is being called a "shem" really any worse the being called a "knife ears" or for that matter being out and out ignored and considered garbage and/or vermin if you happen to be born without a caste?

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
In case you haven't noticed, there are people of all races in Thedas who think they're superior to others.

(Or philosophy if you're a kossith Qunari. The kossith as a race seem to define themselves by their beliefs more than genetics, though I could be mistaken. It would be interesting to talk with some Tal'Vashoth and ask their opinions on the matter.)

At which point did I give the impression I consider elves to be the most morally abhorrent of all races? Just check my post on the top of this very page when I say that shemlen is a racial slur, same as knife-ears.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:43 .

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Like Ferelden. Just ask Loghain.

Exactly, but beating each other to mutual exhasution is just one option.  I don't think it was anybody's first choice though.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Who gave the missionaries the right to trespass on sovereign territory?

Who knows how it went down?  Maybe there was simply no explicit law against Andrasteism and the missionaries weren't actually breaking any real laws.  Perhaps the missionaries weren't even human themselves?  Afterall there were and are elves who are devout Andrasteians.  Perhaps the missionaries were permitted to preach, or even invited to do so, by one faction of elves but then a more extremeist elven faction came to power? 

You can cook up any number of scenarios where the Orlesians are the bad guys and the elves are the poor victims, but it's just as easy to do the reverse too.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Yes. And they are racist to this day because they still consider the humans to be "quick children"

Perhaps our ways were quicker than theirs; tough I don't believe they were ever biologically immortal; but calling us children proves elves think their race superior.

Some elves are racist, yes.  Some humans too, and some dwarves.  Is being called a "shem" really any worse the being called a "knife ears"

It can be, yes. Different forms and intensities of racism take different forms, and words with more loaded subtext are more racist than casual racist gestures.

or for that matter being out and out ignored and considered garbage and/or vermin if you happen to be born without a caste?

This really doesn't have any relevance to what JB was talking about. It is neither a counterargument or an actual argument.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They called humans that because elves were immortal, and humans were mortal. The lore addresses this. You might be thinking of the term 'Shem' from the city elves.

As for modern Dalish, I don't disagree that some like that, but there's no evidence the elves of the Dales held themselves that way as a whole.

Shemlen is a racial slur with all of the usual negative connotations any racial slur carries that has been in use since Arlathan, same as knife-ears. To consider another people as "children" implies that yours are culturally superior. 

So they are racist because they considered a young, mortal race to be "quick children"?

Yep, it's racism if they didn't approve of interracial relationships, regardless of the validity of their claim.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:41 .

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Some elves are racist, yes.  Some humans too, and some dwarves.  Is being called a "shem" really any worse the being called a "knife ears"

Knife ears is a racial slur based on simple difference of appearance. It is a sad staple of sentient life to dislike that which is different but it is, ultimately, focused solely on appearance.
Shemlen means "quick children" and implies an innherent belief that culturally and intellectually, humans are children when compared to elves.

So, is "shemlen" worse than "knife-ears"? Maybe so.

[Lazy Jer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Yes. And they are racist to this day because they still consider the humans to be "quick children"

Perhaps our ways were quicker than theirs; tough I don't believe they were ever biologically immortal; but calling us children proves elves think their race superior.

Some elves are racist, yes.  Some humans too, and some dwarves.  Is being called a "shem" really any worse the being called a "knife ears"

It can be, yes. Different forms and intensities of racism take different forms, and words with more loaded subtext are more racist than casual racist gestures.

or for that matter being out and out ignored and considered garbage and/or vermin if you happen to be born without a caste?

This really doesn't have any relevance to what JB was talking about. It is neither a counterargument or an actual argument.

Neither was the rest of it, really.  Shemlen is a racial slur, I agreed with him.  My point was that (a) all the races do have some element of racism shown in-game, and ( that not all members of those races are racist.  Do some of the Daleish have a tendency to consider themselves superior...yes absolutely.  You see that more then once in the game.  But you do also see the same attitude with some of the other races.  You do see the Arl's son busting into the alienage considering, you see the bann of whatever discouraging the Warden's tactical advice because he's an elf.

In re the casteless it was comparison to the other elements of racism in-game.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

Knife ears is a racial slur based on simple difference of appearance. It is a sad staple of sentient life to dislike that which is different but it is, ultimately, focused solely on appearance.
Shemlen means "quick children" and implies an innherent belief that culturally and intellectually, humans are children when compared to elves.

So, is "shemlen" worse than "knife-ears"? Maybe so.

Well now we're getting into a matter of interpretation.  Some sources say that it's a simple comment on the fact that humans don't live as long as the elves do.  Some other sources interpret it the way you do.  In which case to paraphrase George Carlin, the words themselves aren't the problem, it's the racist a-hole that's using them that you have to worry about.

[WardenWade]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

I actually think this would be a good storyline.

When and how are the city elves going to revolt against the way they are treated? Is it impossible due to the lack of means (not allowed to have weapons, low morale, many other obstacles) and their extremely strong enemy? Would the Dalish help? Who would be their other allies, assuming they found some?

The idea would be to reclaim at least some of the land that was stolen from them, start their own kingdom, and become first class citizens like everyone else. Would they still be Andrastian, or resort to their Dalish roots? As elves produce more mages I assume the Chantry would get involved as well in the war (we all know it would come to that).

All in all, I think if things were done right it would become just as big or even bigger as the mage/templar war.

P.S. I would also appreciate if someone told me if the Chantry law justifies city elf treatment. Is it related to the fact that the ancient elves didn't help them during the first Blight, and that's when it started?

I wonder about this myself, especially given the current tumult with the mages and Chantry over many of the same issues that plague elves (especially city elves).  I know in DA2 we saw some elves not only joining the qunari but actively aiding them against the population of Kirkwall during Act 2.  I hope that wasn't the entire rebellion that, clearly, many here seem to think is likely or deserved, if not inevitable...if not, I could see it as a possible plotline in a future game.  In fact, if it appeared in DA3 or DA4 I feel that it would have been given a decent amount of time to believably ferment. 

I would like to think that the general lack of resources the city elves have access to wouldn't be insurmountable.  For one thing, they are perceived as largely very passive and a surprise uprising would be just that to many, I think.  Furthermore, under Andraste, Shartan and the elven slaves rose up with next to nothing and, ultimately and at great cost, won.  Working with the Dalish (communication would be an issue here, but as city elves frequently run to local Dalish clans for shelter or dispatch matchmakers between alienages it must not be impossible) would be a boon, and in turn the city elves could be a useful fifth column.  I don't know if the Dalish would aid in a revolt or not, but it could conceivably help both factions if they did.  I imagine the Dalish would see the utility of a united front.

I imagine if a revolt did succeed compromise would have to be made between city and Dalish elves and their beliefs.  The Chantry would IMO not be easily removed from a new homeland, and the mage conflict would certainly spill over.  Likewise, there is also the possibility that the Dalish might see themselves as the natural rulers over the city elves (and city elves might often think that too), perpetuating the oppression both groups have endured.  Additionally, as others have pointed out, human settlements couldn't just be pushed out, and the lack of skills many city elves have would have to be addressed too, as would the fact that some elves (like some mages, perhaps, in the Circles) liked their lives in the alienages and might not want to change.

I happen to love the elves of DA and I too think it could be a huge "sleeper" plot thread that boils over into a huge story, one that I hope Bioware takes up and develops fully, however it turns out.  

I'm not sure if there is a specific Chantry law against the elves.  I think the contemporary treatment largely dates back to the Exalted March upon the Dales and the bad blood stemming from that.  Alienages date from that time, if I recall, and the reign of Divine Renata I.  Elven slavery in Tevinter (and we must remember that humans and other mages are also enslaved there) dates from the enormous "miscommunication" between the Arlathan elves and the early magisters.  In time practice became ingrown prejudice towards them, perhaps?

Modifié par WardenWade, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:31 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Knife ears is a racial slur based on simple difference of appearance. It is a sad staple of sentient life to dislike that which is different but it is, ultimately, focused solely on appearance.
Shemlen means "quick children" and implies an innherent belief that culturally and intellectually, humans are children when compared to elves.

So, is "shemlen" worse than "knife-ears"? Maybe so.

Only if you interpret it that way, whereas other sources in-game denote the meaning as having to do with their shorter lifespans -- and sometimes that along with their impatient natures.

The Elves call the Dwarves durgen'len -- meaning Children of the Stone. Does that mean that Dwarves are culturally and intellectually children?

[General User]

Faerunner wrote…

It was their homeland, they could run it however they wanted.

Not consequence free they couldn't.  No one can.

Faerunner wrote...
None, that's what. I think the heart of the issue with humans versus elves is power and control. Humans want to have power and control over elven lives and resources. When they can tell elves where they can live (alienages), which gods they can worship (the Maker), what kind of jobs they can get (slaves or scut-work), what kind of resources they can have access to (money, rations, etc), then they're happy. When elves are doing their own thing without human opinion and input, or have access to land or resources that humans want but can't have, then humans get pissed off. The attitude is "I should be able to withhold power and resources from you, but you shouldn't be able to do it to me."

The fact that Andrastian humans got all butt-hurt over the fact that the Dales weren't opening up their borders like they wanted reeks of entitlement of power. "I should be able to go in and out as I please, I should be able to send in my missionaries to convert elves to worship my god whenever I want, and I should have access to elven resources through trade when I feel like it. How dare they not run their kingdom the way I think they should?" In fact, the humans getting offended over not being able to send in missionaries, trade caravans, etc. reeks of passive-aggressive power-play to me.

Helping Andraste did not change this fundemental attitude of "I should be able to have control over you, and I will force you to do what I want if you do not comply." Humans did not respect that elves deserved to be free of their influence the way the humans were now free of Tevinter influence. Humans hated being subjected by Tevinter, elves helped Andraste free them from Tevinter, yet elves were still not entitled to the same freedom that humans claimed for themselves. Humans would not leave elves alone until they were at the bottom of their society the way they were at the bottom of Tevinter society. Same story, different faces.

I know that the elves were not completely blameless in the fall of the Dales. I know this. Every conflict as two sides. However, I do not find your argument compelling. Essentially: "The elves didn't run their kingdom the way humans wanted, so they deserved to lose their kingdom to humans." My response to that is: the humans should not have been telling elves how to run their kingdom in the first place. This was a short-coming of the humans as much as, if not more so than the elves.

===
With the existence of the Dales, the elves were at least free to run their own kingdom and live how they wanted without humans telling them what's what. (Although this pissed off humans because they felt entitled to come and go whenever they pleased and got all butt-hurt over the fact that the elves weren't doing what the humans wanted when they wanted.)

With the fall of the Dales, the humans were back to dominating the elves and telling them how they could and could not live. "You can either worship our God and live in segregated quarters of our cities and take whatever jobs we give you, or you can get out of our sight before we kill you."

The thing is, after the elves settled in the Dales following the defeat of the Imperium, they were entitled to control their own lives/run their own affairs/however-you-want-to-put-it just like everyone else.  The difference is, once the elves had their freedom, the proceeded to use that freedom to make a series of bad decisions.   You can say that the elves were entitled to make their own decisions, and you'd be right, but that's only half the tale.  No freeman or freeelf is entitled to be free of the consequences of their decisions. 

Though they didn't realize it at the time, from day one, the ancient Dalish were on a path that would lead inexorably to the destruction of their nation.  And for much of the way at least, they walked that path willingly.

Faerunner wrote...
With humans on the top of the social hierarchy and elves on the bottom. Same as before.

In Tevinter society, humans dominated elves and told them how they could and could not live.

In Tevinter society, Magisters dominated everyone, humans and elves alike.

Faerunner wrote...

Except that clean, hard-working, useful, and honest elves already exist and this doesn't stop humans from still lumping them with the less than savoury ones.

Depends on the human.  Alistair and Leliana spring to mind.

Faerunner wrote...

Except that humans cause most elves to be empoverished and uneducated and then use the less than stalwart examples that such a lifestyle would produce as "proof" that they all don't deserve better opportunities, or they would all squander their chances if given, so they should all remain empoverished. Thus the cycle continues.

I'll say this much, the answer to a cycle of poverty and ignorance is NOT a cycle of violence.

Faerunner wrote...

How are the elves supposed to "move on" from that?

How do you rise above 'da h8ers?  Several fine contemporary American lyrical wordsmiths have answered that question far more eloquently than I would ever be able to.

Faerunner wrote...

By the way, I love how in your mind, it's only the jobs of the elves to change themselves or their attitudes and never the humans' jobs to do the same.

I didn't think I was saying anthing of the sort.  Allow me to allay your confusion: it's both.

Faerunner wrote...

If the humans think poorly of all elves, it's all the elves' fault because some of them proved humans right and the elves have to be the one to change it. If the humans refuse to change their attitude despite the elves' efforts, however, you can't force them, so it's a lost cause. (But it's still the elves' fault that their position sucks.)

Like it or love it, that can't force people to change the way they think is just a fact of nature.  The best you can do is demonstrate that they are in error.  The next step is up to them.

Faerunner wrote...

No. If elves can change themselves, then humans can change themselves too. It takes two to tango.

Two to tango, huh?  By George, I think you're getting it!  So… tell me: does that also apply to the hostility between the Dales and Orlais?  Just wondering how far this principle extends in your mind.

Faerunner wrote...

Things will never change unless humans change the attitude they've held since before the fall of Tevinter.

Very true.  So help them do that.

Modifié par General User, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Only if you interpret it that way, whereas other sources in-game denote the meaning as having to do with their shorter lifespans -- and sometimes that along with their impatient natures.

The Elves call the Dwarves durgen'len -- meaning Children of the Stone. Does that mean that Dwarves are culturally and intellectually children?

Different contexts. Dwarves believe themselves to have spawned from the Stone so, it makes sense to call them "Children of the Stone."
The elves don't call themselves "Children of the Creators", tough. So, their tendency to consider everyone to be children except for them could be seen as insulting, yes.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Different contexts. Dwarves believe themselves to have spawned from the Stone so, it makes sense to call them "Children of the Stone."
The elves don't call themselves "Children of the Creators", tough. So, their tendency to consider everyone to be children except for them could be seen as insulting, yes.

That's because their mythos/religion doesn't claim that the Creators created the Elves, so calling themselves such wouldn't make much sense.

David Gaider wrote...

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

They call themselves the Elvhen, which means "The People". And they were, according to all historical accounts we have of the time predating the Imperium's emergence, the first people on Thedas.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[Lazy Jer]

David Gaider wrote...
In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

Daleish Child saying Grace: Dear Elgar'nan and Mythal....we hunted this food ourselves so, thanks for nothin'.

Child's Father: BART!

(Sorry, folks, couldn't resist.)

[WardenWade]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
...

...

rapscallioness wrote...

So, with the Elves, are they
forced to stay in the Alienages? I remember a few that seemed to be able
to come and go from the Dalish. Were they the exception?

edit:
if they are being forced, and I were them, frankly I'd rebel right now.
Right now, right now. Not right now later. Their enemy is not going to
be weaker any time soon.

The Chantry, Orlais, Templars all is in
disarray. Their own internal conflicts threatening to end them. Now is a
s good a time as any to bust out.

But not everyone is going to
want to do that. It could be a difficult transition. And what if they've
embraced Andraste? Are the Dalish going to want, demand, they convert?

They aren't forced to
live in Alienages, per se, but I've read in codexes that in some
circumstances if an elven family moves out of an Alienage there were
mysterious "fires". So, I guess it depends on the city. It's probably
racists thinking elves are being "uppity" for living outside the
Alienage.

I do agree that if there will be a rebellion, the perfect time would be now, with everyone distracted with the mages.

At
this point I think the Dalish just want their own land, and would be
thinking of themselves when allying with the city elves. Though I think
most would convert willingly merely out of curiosity or spite of the
humans.

Regarding the bolded portions, I believe additionally that elves who leave the alienage for human-settled areas are frequently treated to violence, abuse (verbal and otherwise, I imagine) and so on by humans.  If I recall from the codex many city elves also believe those that leave the alienage have given up being an elf and, unable to be either elf or human, may not be very welcome to return.

Modifié par WardenWade, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:26 .

[Lazy Jer]

WardenWade wrote...

Regarding the bolded portions, I believe additionally that elves who leave the alienage for human-settled areas are frequently treated to violence, abuse (verbal and otherwise, I imagine) and so on by humans.  If I recall from the codex many city elves also believe those that leave the alienage have given up being an elf and, unable to be either elf or human, may not be very welcome to return.

I thought that was the Daleish towards elves who left to become city elves.