394 réponses à ce sujet

[Zetheria Tabris]

MisterJB wrote...

Dwarves engage in peaceful trading relations with their human neighbours. Add to that the fact humans have no interest in colonizing the deep roads and it's obvious why their isolationism works for them.
If the elves expect to share the surface with the humans, they must be willing to either make some concessions or war.

The only thing that's keeping them from being hostile is the lyrium trade. You see if a Circle Tower is made in Orzammar, the Chantry starts an Exalted March. If the elves wish to isolate themselves without interfering with any other nation's affairs they should have been allowed to do so.

I disagree. I don't particularly believe they practiced human
sacrifices but the elven attack on Red Crossing is an historical fact.

History is written by the winners. The Dalish claim the Chantry sent in missionaries to their land to convert them into Andrastians, and that is how the war began. It's all a matter of who you believe, and I don't trust the Chantry when it comes to their reasons for what happened to the elves, or the mages, for that matter.

[Zetheria Tabris]

MisterJB wrote...

Just like the elves would prefer to think their homeland and "immortality" were unjustly stolen and not that they simply lost a war they helped start.

It was unjustly stolen. The elves wouldn't have even been in the Dales in the first place if the Imperium hadn't enslaved them Thedas belonged to the elves first (on the surface anyway), but they helped Andraste win her own war and the Dales was their reward. Never should it have been taken because they lost a war involving the Chantry. It goes against everything their prophet taught them.

[dragonflight288]

If you're a city elf, you're pretty scorned by almost everyone.

[WardenWade]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Regarding the bolded portions, I believe additionally that elves who leave the alienage for human-settled areas are frequently treated to violence, abuse (verbal and otherwise, I imagine) and so on by humans.  If I recall from the codex many city elves also believe those that leave the alienage have given up being an elf and, unable to be either elf or human, may not be very welcome to return.

I thought that was the Daleish towards elves who left to become city elves.

The reply is written in response to the alienage elves so it is about the elves leaving the alienage in the city to live somewhere else that are human settlements, not the Dalish.

Thank you, sjpelkessjpeler!  Sorry for the confusion Lazy Jer!  Yes, I meant that reply regarding the alienage elves in particular, though both appear to consider elves living among human "flat ears."  As far as it goes, according the the codex entry on "Alienage Culture:"

"There have been alienages for as long as elves and shems have lived in the same lands. They say that Val Royeaux has ten thousand elves living in a space no bigger than Denerim's market. Their walls are supposedly so high that daylight doesn't reach the vhenadahl until midday.
But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and
picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We
don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good
break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If
they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have
burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do
what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out
there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and
thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere.
--Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage"

Modifié par WardenWade, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[dragonflight288]

WardenWade wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Regarding the bolded portions, I believe additionally that elves who leave the alienage for human-settled areas are frequently treated to violence, abuse (verbal and otherwise, I imagine) and so on by humans.  If I recall from the codex many city elves also believe those that leave the alienage have given up being an elf and, unable to be either elf or human, may not be very welcome to return.

I thought that was the Daleish towards elves who left to become city elves.

The reply is written in response to the alienage elves so it is about the elves leaving the alienage in the city to live somewhere else that are human settlements, not the Dalish.

Thank you, sjpelkessjpeler!  Sorry for the confusion Lazy Jer!  Yes, I meant that reply regarding the alienage elves in particular, though both appear to consider elves living among human "flat ears."  As far as it goes, according the the codex entry on "Alienage Culture:"

"There have been alienages for as long as elves and shems have lived in the same lands. They say that Val Royeaux has ten thousand elves living in a space no bigger than Denerim's market. Their walls are supposedly so high that daylight doesn't reach the vhenadahl until midday.
But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and
picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We
don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good
break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If
they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have
burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do
what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out
there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and
thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere.
--Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage"

Ironically, the Dalish more or less share the same opinion of every elf who allows themselves to be subjugated by humans. 

And Zevran has a lovely quote regarding the vhendahl.

Zevran said

They grow a big tree to remember their culture. Then they ****** all over it. Lovely symbolism.

[MisterJB]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
The only thing that's keeping them from being hostile is the lyrium trade.

That and humans really don't much care for living beneath the earth.

You see if a Circle Tower is made in Orzammar, the Chantry starts an Exalted March.

Because the chantry has a zero tolerance policy on mages.
The dwarves also slaughtered a group of Arlathan refugees so as to not anger the Tevinter Imperium. It's a dark fantasy, it sucks for everyone.

If the elves wish to isolate themselves without interfering with any other nation's affairs they should have been allowed to do so.

That's a nice ideal but the truth is that if you don't try to cultivate friendly relations with your neighbours, don't be surprised if they are not particularly fond of you.
The dwarves understood this and allowed Brother Burkel to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If the elves insist on isolating themselves rather than attempt to live with the humans, these wars will just keep happening.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
It was unjustly stolen. The elves wouldn't have even been in the Dales in the first place if the Imperium hadn't enslaved them Thedas belonged to the elves first (on the surface anyway), but they helped Andraste win her own war and the Dales was their reward. Never should it have been taken because they lost a war involving the Chantry. It goes against everything their prophet taught them.

Thedas belongs to whoever can hold it. Regarless of who started it, the elves almost destroyed Orlais. Keeping in mind that they believe contact with humans contaminates them with mortality, I can just imagine what they did to those living in the territory they occupied.

Was it right for the elves to lose their homeland because of a war? Not really but neither it was their attempt to destroy Orlais. Nothing in war is righteous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:12 .

[dragonflight288]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@dragonflight288

Erm, maybe you should consider here that Zevran is a cynical elve that has had a hard life that could have made him make that kind of statement regarding his heritage .

I have taken it into consideration. He outright says he feels nothing for the elves as they don't stand up for themselves. But if you look at how he banters with Sten, and how he gets approval points when elves are concerned, it becomes obvious he still cares about how elves are treated, both by humans and by themselves. He has little respect for city elves because city elves have little respect for themselves.

But he does question Sten on whether elves rule humans in Par Vollen enthusiastically. And is confused when the answer is "Some of them."

[dragonflight288]

That's a nice ideal but the truth is that if you don't try to cultivate friendly relations with your neighbours, don't be surprised if they are not particularly fond of you.
The dwarves understood this and allowed Brother Burkel to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If the elves insist on isolating themselves rather than attempt to live with the humans, these wars will just keep happening.

Umm...that's not what happened. The Warden had to get involved before Shapeer Czibo would even consider allowing Brother Burkel to start a Chantry there. And when they started getting more converts than they thought possible, it led to a wholesale slaughter of the lot of them.

[dragonflight288]

He totally trusted the dalish in DA2 in the side quest concerning his 'well being' too...

Regarding the city elves I think that he projects them on his mother in a way....Some one needs to take the blame for it http://social.biowar.../whistling.png. Zevran is in heart just a big wuss that does not want to get his feelings hurt by being the tough guy..

Sten countered Zevran's emotions with logic and he just had no answer for that. Kind of truth or dare situation and Zevran lost.

His mother was Dalish, not a city elf. I personally think Zevran has a healthy amount of skepticism for everyone. Doesn't matter who they are, if he's paid enough he'll kill them. Or sleep with them. Or sleep with them and then kill them.

[Xilizhra]

But if your theoretical self should decide that being an elf is only part of what you are (and far from the most important part at that), that what you really are is a wife, mother, sister, neighbor, friend. And that what you really want is a world where the faithful receive honor, the weak receive protection, and the wronged receive justice, all regardless of their race or wealth or magical talent or anything else you care to name, then violent rebellion is simply not an option. The ol' violent rebellion train just don't do there.

This is Thedas. No one will play nice. The only way to accomplish this without violence is with... well, blood magic. The problem is that stratified social structures are in place, and they won't be voluntarily removed because the people in power like staying that way, and are probably bigots. Social pressure can help remove things like this in the modern age because of shifting morality and, more importantly, widespread media that simply don't exist on Thedas. We have far, far more options for peaceful resolution in our world than they do there. I really don't see how just dancing further to the tune of the oppressors will accomplish anything when there's absolutely nothing stopping them from continuing to oppress.

[Zetheria Tabris]

MisterJB wrote...

You see if a Circle Tower is made in Orzammar, the Chantry starts an Exalted March.

Because the chantry has a zero tolerance policy on mages.

You said so yourself that humans don't want to live underground. So what does mages in Orzammar have to do with them? They are no longer under Chantry law. It's a matter of boundaries, and breaking them.

If the elves wish to isolate themselves without interfering with any other nation's affairs they should have been allowed to do so.

That's a nice ideal but the truth is that if you don't try to cultivate friendly relations with your neighbours, don't be surprised if they are not particularly fond of you.
The dwarves understood this and allowed Brother Burkel to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If the elves insist on isolating themselves rather than attempt to live with the humans, these wars will just keep happening.

Actually, the Orzammar Chantry thing went to hell shortly after the Blight. The dwarves didn't want to convert. Like I said, isolated.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
It was unjustly stolen. The elves wouldn't have even been in the Dales in the first place if the Imperium hadn't enslaved them Thedas belonged to the elves first (on the surface anyway), but they helped Andraste win her own war and the Dales was their reward. Never should it have been taken because they lost a war involving the Chantry. It goes against everything their prophet taught them.

Thedas belongs to whoever can hold it. Regarless of who started it, the elves almost destroyed Orlais. Keeping in mind that they believe contact with humans contaminates them with mortality, I can just imagine what they did to those living in the territory they occupied.

Was it right for the elves to lose their homeland because of a war? Not really but neither it was their attempt to destroy Orlais. Nothing in war is righteous.

They almost destroyed Orlais just as the Orlesians destroyed what they had. Everyone gets hurt in war. No it isn't right either way, especially when you consider all the innocents involved, and even the human soldiers who were just doing their jobs. But the blame goes on who started it, not the defenders.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[dragonflight288]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

He totally trusted the dalish in DA2 in the side quest concerning his 'well being' too...

Regarding the city elves I think that he projects them on his mother in a way....Some one needs to take the blame for it http://social.biowar.../whistling.png. Zevran is in heart just a big wuss that does not want to get his feelings hurt by being the tough guy..

Sten countered Zevran's emotions with logic and he just had no answer for that. Kind of truth or dare situation and Zevran lost.

His mother was Dalish, not a city elf. I personally think Zevran has a healthy amount of skepticism for everyone. Doesn't matter who they are, if he's paid enough he'll kill them. Or sleep with them. Or sleep with them and then kill them.

Really do not want to argue here..Zevran's mother was indeed Dalish but fell in love with a woodcutter and left her clan to live in a human settlement. She died after giving birth to him so I'm guessing that Zevran points his finger at 'city elves' for his bad life.

We still do not know much about Antiva and the way elves are treated there. Zevran told about the crows but as far I recall not about the elven polulation there and how they are treated overall.

Zevran was an orphan which did not make his 'case' very strong to begin with.

Ah well, he's still a cool character.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:34 .

[DPSSOC]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

If the elves wish to isolate themselves without interfering with any other nation's affairs they should have been allowed to do so.

That's a nice ideal but the truth is that if you don't try to cultivate friendly relations with your neighbours, don't be surprised if they are not particularly fond of you.
The dwarves understood this and allowed Brother Burkel to open a Chantry in Orzammar. If the elves insist on isolating themselves rather than attempt to live with the humans, these wars will just keep happening.

Actually, the Orzammar Chantry thing went to hell shortly after the Blight. The dwarves didn't want to convert. Like I said, isolated.

And that cultivates enough ill will to get the Divine to consider an Exalted March on Orzammar.  However prior to that the Dwarves had been cultivating good will through trade.  When the Dalish cultivate no good will at all, and in fact cultivate a great deal of ill will when they kill anyone who, even accidentally, gets too close, it takes a lot less to spark much larger conflicts.  The Dwarves give Humans reasons not to attack them, the Dalish do not.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
It was unjustly stolen. The elves wouldn't have even been in the Dales in the first place if the Imperium hadn't enslaved them Thedas belonged to the elves first (on the surface anyway), but they helped Andraste win her own war and the Dales was their reward. Never should it have been taken because they lost a war involving the Chantry. It goes against everything their prophet taught them.

Thedas belongs to whoever can hold it. Regarless of who started it, the elves almost destroyed Orlais. Keeping in mind that they believe contact with humans contaminates them with mortality, I can just imagine what they did to those living in the territory they occupied.

Was it right for the elves to lose their homeland because of a war? Not really but neither it was their attempt to destroy Orlais. Nothing in war is righteous.

They almost destroyed Orlais just as the Orlesians destroyed what they had. Everyone gets hurt in war. No it isn't right either way, especially when you consider all the innocents involved, and even the human soldiers who were just doing their jobs. But the blame goes on who started it, not the defenders.

So the Dalish.  We have two records supporting a Dalish attack on the village of Red Crossing as the spark for the war and 0 accounts of specific strikes made by Orlais or the Chantry.  The Dalish say that they sent missionaries and then Templars, no indication of timescale or any other factors. Something happened at Red Crossing, that the Dalish don't mention it is indicative only of Dalish attitudes because it clearly demonstrates that whatever happened at Red Crossing they felt was perfectly alright.  Maybe the missionaries were being sent out of Red Crossing so the Dalish, after telling them to sod off repeatedly, attacked the village in order to make a point.

[Zetheria Tabris]

DPSSOC wrote...

And that cultivates enough ill will to get the Divine to consider an
Exalted March on Orzammar.  However prior to that the Dwarves had been
cultivating good will through trade.  When the Dalish cultivate no good
will at all, and in fact cultivate a great deal of ill will when they
kill anyone who, even accidentally, gets too close, it takes a lot less
to spark much larger conflicts.  The Dwarves give Humans reasons not to
attack them, the Dalish do not.

An Exalted March is started if Orzammar establishes their own circle, which is not controlled by the Chantry.

So the Dalish.  We have two records supporting a Dalish attack on the
village of Red Crossing as the spark for the war and 0 accounts of
specific strikes made by Orlais or the Chantry.  The Dalish say that
they sent missionaries and then Templars, no indication of timescale or
any other factors. Something happened at Red Crossing, that the Dalish
don't mention it is indicative only of Dalish attitudes because it
clearly demonstrates that whatever happened at Red Crossing they felt
was perfectly alright.  Maybe the missionaries were being sent out of
Red Crossing so the Dalish, after telling them to sod off repeatedly,
attacked the village in order to make a point.

So the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, but probably in retaliation to something the humans did first. As I've said before, history is written by the winners, and the Chantry is notorious for lying and covering things up. Personally I think the Red Crossing excuse was made by Orlais to start a war. I just can't see them starting anything when they had just got a new homeland and were rebuilding their culture and lost history. There is no logic in that.

Modifié par Zetheria Tabris, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .

[DPSSOC]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

And that cultivates enough ill will to get the Divine to consider an
Exalted March on Orzammar.  However prior to that the Dwarves had been
cultivating good will through trade.  When the Dalish cultivate no good
will at all, and in fact cultivate a great deal of ill will when they
kill anyone who, even accidentally, gets too close, it takes a lot less
to spark much larger conflicts.  The Dwarves give Humans reasons not to
attack them, the Dalish do not.

An Exalted March is started if Orzammar establishes their own circle, which is not controlled by the Chantry.

And an Exalted March is considered if Brother Burkel dies.  Both these things happen.  Except the epilogue cards were kind of chucked out the window for DA2 so who knows what happened anymore.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

So the Dalish.  We have two records supporting a Dalish attack on the
village of Red Crossing as the spark for the war and 0 accounts of
specific strikes made by Orlais or the Chantry.  The Dalish say that
they sent missionaries and then Templars, no indication of timescale or
any other factors. Something happened at Red Crossing, that the Dalish
don't mention it is indicative only of Dalish attitudes because it
clearly demonstrates that whatever happened at Red Crossing they felt
was perfectly alright.  Maybe the missionaries were being sent out of
Red Crossing so the Dalish, after telling them to sod off repeatedly,
attacked the village in order to make a point.

So the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, but probably in retaliation to something the humans did first. As I've said before, history is written by the winners, and the Chantry is notorious for lying and covering things up.

 
So why do the City Elves support it?  The City Elves with the same story telling traditions as the Dalish remark that there was an attack on Red Crossing, that's the second source, independent of the Chantry and if anything biased in favour of the elves and it still says they started it.  We have no records of earlier confrontations, not even the Dalish make reference to it, so we have to go with what we're given.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
Personally I think the Red Crossing excuse was made by Orlais to start a war. I just can't see them starting anything when they had just got a new homeland and were rebuilding their culture and lost history. There is no logic in that.

When have the Dalish ever been logical?  They attack or threaten everyone who comes even close to their camp, and act surprised when they get attacked in turn.  They intentionally and doggedly pursue policies that have only ever harmed their people and their culture.  The Dalish are traditionalists of the worst sort, they aren't bright enough to spot when tradition doesn't work anymore.

As much as people like to do it now a days you cannot invent history just because you don't like what exists.  If you can't find records that even suggest the Dalish did not attack Red Crossing you are diving into fiction, not history, by suggesting otherwise.

Edit: Furthermore the Dalish did not "just" get a new homeland, they'd been sitting on it for 300 years, they sat out an entire Blight on their land not so much as lifting a finger to help.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:06 .

[dragonflight288]

When have the Dalish ever been logical? They attack or threaten everyone who comes even close to their camp, and act surprised when they get attacked in turn. They intentionally and doggedly pursue policies that have only ever harmed their people and their culture. The Dalish are traditionalists of the worst sort, they aren't bright enough to spot when tradition doesn't work anymore.

As much as people like to do it now a days you cannot invent history just because you don't like what exists. If you can't find records that even suggest the Dalish did not attack Red Crossing you are diving into fiction, not history, by suggesting otherwise.

Edit: Furthermore the Dalish did not "just" get a new homeland, they'd been sitting on it for 300 years, they sat out an entire Blight on their land not so much as lifting a finger to help.

But there are many instances of them being attacked for simply being there. It is well established that the Chantry regularly goes after the Dalish because of the Keepers and the Firsts being mages.

Then in DA2, that templar who was tracking Fenriel took a young Dalish hunter, tortured him with fire to get information on Fenriel, and then threatens to slaughter all the Dalish to get at him. And she doesn't even apologize or even consider asking politely. As far as she's concerned, they're just knife-eared louts.

Then in Act 3, it is heavily implied that the Chantry is telling the elves on Sundermount to convert or die.

[dragonflight288]

There's a lot of culture behind this prejudice. The Tevinter had the elves enslaved for 1000 years. I highly doubt that those who followed Andraste were happy having elves help her. As far as most them had seen, their entire lives, and the lives of most of their ancestors, the elves were slaves and subordinate to humans. That doesn't make it right, but the attitude has been prevalent long before the Chantry. Long before Andraste even.

[nightscrawl]

MisterJB wrote...

Knife ears is a racial slur based on simple difference of appearance. It is a sad staple of sentient life to dislike that which is different but it is, ultimately, focused solely on appearance.
Shemlen means "quick children" and implies an innherent belief that culturally and intellectually, humans are children when compared to elves.

So, is "shemlen" worse than "knife-ears"? Maybe so.

A slur is a slur. The importance is from the intent behind it. It doesn't matter what the origin is.

Some Italian-Americans don't find the term "******" to be offensive, since its origin "without papers" has no meaning for them in their lives as second, third, or fourth generation Italian immigrants. On the other hand, they might find the terms "******" and "guinea" offensive.

Also, words change in meaning, severity, and significance over time. The term "colored" used to be perfectly acceptable. There are still some really old African Americans who use it and don't think anything of it. The name of their major civil rights organization, the NAACP, is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. However, using that term today is generally regarded poorly, but certainly not in the same light as the n-word.

For a non-racial/ethnic example, I turn to the b-word and c-word in relation to women. Some women regard both with equal horror. Some women feel that the c-word is pretty much the worst thing you can say, ever, and don't mind b-word that much -- and if you think about its widespread use in our society, even in a game like Dragon Age 2, it's obvious that that is the case. Other women get a different feeling when either word is used by men, rather than by their fellow women, even if both are used negatively. And still other women have adopted those terms, and others, and use them casually, reducing their meaning for significance in their lives.

It's all relative.

The guards who refer to Erlina (Anora's handmaiden) as a knife-ear are disgusting. Equally disgusting are the Dalish of Merrill's clan who call you a shemlen to your face on a couple of occasions.


(I generally regard using shortenings like "b-word" as childish, especially during an intellectual conversation. Alas it was required in this instance because of forum filters.)

Modifié par nightscrawl, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:34 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

DPSSOC wrote...

And an Exalted March is considered if Brother Burkel dies.  Both these
things happen.  Except the epilogue cards were kind of chucked out the
window for DA2 so who knows what happened anymore.

My point about Orzammar is that despite the fact that they are isolated they are not attacked by humanity like the elves were. I understand they trade, but depending on who is made king, that could be tossed out the window too. They don't aid in wars unless they're obligated (like with the Warden treaties).

If Harrowmont becomes king, he puts a severe limit on trade. By MisterJB's logic, then humanity would have no reason not to attack them, for not only are they isolated, but they are not Andrastians. That's all I was saying.

So why do the City Elves support it?  The City Elves with the same story
telling traditions as the Dalish remark that there was an attack on Red
Crossing, that's the second source, independent of the Chantry and if
anything biased in favour of the elves and it still says they started
it.  We have no records of earlier confrontations, not even the Dalish
make reference to it, so we have to go with what we're given.

All I can say is stories change with time, and the city elves are an unreliable source because they are influenced by the Chantry and humans. If they can give up their native religion, surely they can convince themselves and their children that it was their own ancestor's fault that they lost their homeland.

As much as people like to do it now a days you cannot invent history
just because you don't like what exists.  If you can't find records that
even suggest the Dalish did not attack Red Crossing you are diving into
fiction, not history, by suggesting otherwise.

I believe that Red Crossing was attacked by the Dalish. I just think there's more to the story. As far as records go, it happened ages ago. Records can be destoryed, and lies can be told.

Edit: Furthermore
the Dalish did not "just" get a new homeland, they'd been sitting on it
for 300 years, they sat out an entire Blight on their land not so much
as lifting a finger to help.

I'm not justifying what they did, but I doubt if the Blight had begun on elven lands the humans would have helped them. It's not right, but it is what it is.