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[dragonflight288]

nightscrawl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Knife ears is a racial slur based on simple difference of appearance. It is a sad staple of sentient life to dislike that which is different but it is, ultimately, focused solely on appearance.
Shemlen means "quick children" and implies an innherent belief that culturally and intellectually, humans are children when compared to elves.

So, is "shemlen" worse than "knife-ears"? Maybe so.

A slur is a slur. The importance is from the intent behind it. It doesn't matter what the origin is.

Some Italian-Americans don't find the term "******" to be offensive, since its origin "without papers" has no meaning for them in their lives as second, third, or fourth generation Italian immigrants. On the other hand, they might find the terms "******" and "guinea" offensive.

Also, words change in meaning, severity, and significance over time. The term "colored" used to be perfectly acceptable. There are still some really old African Americans who use it and don't think anything of it. The name of their major civil rights organization, the NAACP, is the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. However, using that term today is generally regarded poorly, but certainly not in the same light as the n-word.

For a non-racial/ethnic example, I turn to the b-word and c-word in relation to women. Some women regard both with equal horror. Some women feel that the c-word is pretty much the worst ting you can say, ever, and don't mind b-word that much -- and if you think about its widespread use in our society, even in a game like Dragon Age 2, it's obvious that that is the case. Other women get a different feeling when either word is used by men, rather than by their fellow women, even if both are used negatively. And still other women have adopted those terms, and others, and use them casually, reducing their meaning for significance in their lives.

It's all relative.

The guards who refer to Erlina (Anora's handmaiden) as a knife-ear are disgusting. Equally disgusting are the Dalish of Merrill's clan who call you a shemlen to your face on a couple of occasions.


(I generally regard using shortenings like "b-word" as childish, especially during an intellectual conversation. Alas it was required in this instance because of forum filters.)

This I like!

My point about Orzammar is that despite the fact that they are
isolated they are not attacked by humanity like the elves were.
I understand they trade, but depending on who is made king, that could
be tossed out the window too. They don't aid in wars unless they're
obligated (like with the Warden treaties).

If Harrowmont becomes
king, he puts a severe limit on trade. By MisterJB's logic, then
humanity would have no reason not to attack them, for not only are they
isolated, but they are not Andrastians. That's all I was saying.

But no matter who is king, Bhelen or Harrowmont, if we don't do Burkel's quest so there is no Chantry but we do Dagna's quest so there's an independent Circle of Magi, the Chantry STILL wants an exalted march. Whether from abuse of their priests or for harboring mages who aren't in a Chantry run circle. It almost looks like (and I don't say this as fact, but rather what it looks like and I'm not sure I believe it yet) the Chantry wants an excuse to invade Orzammar.

[nightscrawl]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But no matter who is king, Bhelen or Harrowmont, if we don't do Burkel's quest so there is no Chantry but we do Dagna's quest so there's an independent Circle of Magi, the Chantry STILL wants an exalted march. Whether from abuse of their priests or for harboring mages who aren't in a Chantry run circle. It almost looks like (and I don't say this as fact, but rather what it looks like and I'm not sure I believe it yet) the Chantry wants an excuse to invade Orzammar.

I've seen this used in other threads about the Chantry. The actual term in both epilogue slides for An Unlikely Scholar and The Chant in the Deeps is that the Divine "contemplates" an Exalted March. Leaders can contemplate such rash actions, they can even threaten their enemies with them openly, but it's not really the same as if it had been said that they were "preparing" for one, or something that more cearly showed the Divine's intent. You also need to remember that the epilogue slides are rumor or the most part.

Also important to note is that Divine Beatrix III, who reigned during the events of DAO and for four years afterward, was really, really old. That certainly has an affect on any decision she might make, how her minions regard her decisions, and possibly even the permanency of any thoughts such as "contemplation" of anything so severe as an Exalted March.

It certainly wouldn't be a light decision, by any means. Orzammar is nigh impregnable, and it would be an alien environment for most soldiers going in, particularly should they decide to go in via a Deep Roads passage, which brings with it its own dangers. Wars also cost a lot of money, man power, and other resources.

[Zetheria Tabris]

But no matter who is king, Bhelen or Harrowmont, if we don't do Burkel's
quest so there is no Chantry but we do Dagna's quest so there's an
independent Circle of Magi, the Chantry STILL wants an exalted march.
Whether from abuse of their priests or for harboring mages who aren't in
a Chantry run circle. It almost looks like (and I don't say this as
fact, but rather what it looks like and I'm not sure I believe it yet)
the Chantry wants an excuse to invade Orzammar.

Look in earlier posts of mine, I agree with you. It's not a matter of the fact that they don't want the dwarves' land, they just want to control everything. Plus they would have even more access to lyrium. Gotta enable those templars, right?

[MisterJB]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
My point about Orzammar is that despite the fact that they are isolated they are not attacked by humanity like the elves were. I understand they trade, but depending on who is made king, that could be tossed out the window too. They don't aid in wars unless they're obligated (like with the Warden treaties).

If Harrowmont becomes king, he puts a severe limit on trade. By MisterJB's logic, then humanity would have no reason not to attack them, for not only are they isolated, but they are not Andrastians. That's all I was saying.

And I assure you, if the dwarves suddenly refused to trade lyrium with the Chantry, the Divine would declare an Exalted March on Orzammar and Kal-Sharok faster than I can write these lines.

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
Look in earlier posts of mine, I agree with you. It's not a matter of the fact that they don't want the dwarves' land, they just want to control everything. Plus they would have even more access to lyrium. Gotta enable those templars, right?

Dwarves are the only ones who can handle raw lyrium with, relative, safety. So long as the dwarves keep to the underground, trade lyrium and are open to peaceful attempts at conversation, andrastian nations have no reason to fight them.
The Dales didn't have any of these things going for it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:21 .

[MisterJB]

double post.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:19 .

[thats1evildude]

I think discussions about the Chantry's intentions towards Orzammar are kind of moot by now. They're not in a position to call an Exalted Anything.

[Zetheria Tabris]

What exactly do you mean by that? If there is a circle in Orzammar, or a riot against Brother Burkel's Chantry, they would consider that more than enough reason to invade.

[Zetheria Tabris]

MisterJB wrote...

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
Look in earlier posts of mine, I agree with you. It's not a matter of the fact that they don't want the dwarves' land, they just want to control everything. Plus they would have even more access to lyrium. Gotta enable those templars, right?

Dwarves are the only ones who can handle raw lyrium with, relative, safety. So long as the dwarves keep to the underground, trade lyrium and are open to peaceful attempts at conversation, andrastian nations have no reason to fight them.
The Dales didn't have any of these things going for it.

I didn't say the dwarves would stop making lyrium for them. I just said the humans would be over them now, if they won the war and conquered their government.

I realize that, and it's very sad. But something tells me that even if the elves traded with the humans and weren't as isolated, eventually some sh*t would have went down. The fact that they aren't Andrastian just stuck in the Chantry's craw, and I feel that was the main reason there was hostility on both sides.

[MisterJB]

Lyrium trade is already reserved to the Chantry. Smuggling is eternal. So, what's the point?

[dragonflight288]

thats1evildude wrote...

I think discussions about the Chantry's intentions towards Orzammar are kind of moot by now. They're not in a position to call an Exalted Anything.

That's true. With the Circles declaring Independence and the Templars on a mage hunt and no longer in service of the Chantry, the Chantry simply cannot do anything. That's why they had Cassandra and the Seekers who aren't loyal to Lambert and the Templars searching for Hawke. They want an end to the war.

Whether or not it's because of concern for their own power or not is another discussion entirely.

But with the Chantry pretty much going up in smoke, if the City elves wanted to revolt, it would be against individual countries. But if they took control of a major city or a noble's lands, declared it elven land, it may very well be possible that dalish and city elves alike would go there to fortify their new home, forcibly taken from humans. And if it happens in Orlais, which is suffering a civil war on its own already, there is actually very little that the Chantry or the Crown of Orlais could do about it.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I know they can't do anything now. I was speaking of shortly after the Blight, around the time the epilogue of the first game was speaking of.

[General User]

Faerunner wrote...

But was the consequence they received proportionate to the "crime" they committed?

Did closing their borders to human visitors really warrent losing their borders completely?

By itself? No.  What it does do is contibute to a climate of hostility and suspicion which lead to a war and for which the Dalish were partly, if not largely, responsible.

Faerunner wrote...

And once again, did their isolationist policy warrent the "consequence" of losing their kingdom?

They refused to open their borders to humans, so the humans were entitled to take their kingdom away?

Not exactly.  But if the ancient Dalish really did incite or even just willingly/eagerly participate in, a war their human neighbors, then yes, those humans would be very much entitled to "take their kingdom."

Faerunner wrote...

Last I checked, the Magisters enslaved an entire race and the Magisters were all human, or is there something I missed?

As far as I know, Tevinter society had some free and some enslaved humans, but all elves were slaves. It wasn't equal.

Tevinter was and is a society based on blood magic and slavery.  Were you expecting equality?

Faerunner wrote...

Their opinions hardly represent the majority, or the opinions of the majority of those in power.

As I'm sure you noticed, the opinions and attitudes of both Alistair and Leliana changed over the course of the game.  So it's not their opinions that are of concern to me so much as how willing they were to change them.

Besides, Alistair is the King of Ferelden.  When you're talking about the Crowned Head of a feudal society, what the "majority" think of anything is rather less significant than the modern mind is used to thinking of.  IOW, Alistair's and Arnora's opinions are ones that matter, the same cannot be said of "the majority."

Faerunner wrote...

Nor is it just a few "clean, hard-working, useful, and honest" elves, because those already exist and it hasn't changed anything.

Did I say "just"?

Faerunner wrote...

Elves do demonstrate that humans are in error, but humans choose to ignore the positive examples in favour of focusing on negative examples. If your argument is that the entire elven race has to magically give up all their flaws and magically morph into perfect model citizens and soldiers so that the humans cannot find one negative example to use against them, then that's not going to happen because a) no one's perfect, and no race or culture can consist of all perfect people.

Since that wasn't my argument… I'll move on.

Faerunner wrote...

All races are going to have positive and negative representatives. Among other things, humans need to learn to recognize this and learn to stop looking down on and withholding opportunities for the entire elven race just because of a few bad examples, because the bad examples aren't going away.

Yes.  But here's the thing, if you're asking "the humans" to place any degree of confidence in "the elves", it then becomes incumbent upon those elves to prove themselves worthy of that confidence.

Faerunner wrote...

I never said that it was all the Orlaisian's fault or that the Dalish were innocent victims. However, I also do not buy the argument that the Dales deserved to lose their kingdom just because they refused to open their borders to human snoops. If the "hostility" originated from elves not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should, or letting humans come in and out as they pleased, then I'd say that humans attitude and course of action was wrong too.

There's a huge difference between the ancient Dalish "not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should" and the ancient Dalish running their kingdom in such a way that their human neighbors could reasonably construe as hostile.

Faerunner wrote...

Elves do help them do that, but humans choose to overlook their efforts. The elves were the first to join Andraste's army. Shartan was a close friend and general to Andraste. The elves helped to free many humans from Tevinter. Garahel almost single-handedly defeated the Fourth Blight. The Night Elves helped to drive out the Orlaisians in Loghain's Army. An Elven Warden can potentially end the Fifth Blight. The Dalish can potentially help to defeat the Fifth Blight in the final battle. A City Elven Warden can potentially become a Bann of the Denerim Alienage. King Alistair can potentially appoint the Hahren a seat in the Landsmeet.

Yet the attitude stays the same.

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes.  You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step.  And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step.  By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen.

Faerunner wrote...

Time and time again in Thedas history elves have joined armies, saved humans, freed humans, and proven their worth as citizens and soldiers. Time and time again in Thedas history humans have chosen to overlook, ignore, and selectively forget elves' positive involvement in favour of focusing only on the negative (such as writing Shartan out of the Canticles of Light after the Exalted March against the Dales) and then use that as an excuse to deny them more opportunities to prove themselves in the future.

If simply joining an army and flashing some positive elven examples was all it took to end human racism and subjugation of elves, it would have worked centuries ago. But humans continue to hold onto their negative attitude toward elves even though positive examples keep proving them wrong.

The burden of ending human racism against elves cannot rest solely on elven shoulders.

Time and time again, whenever the elves make progress they just fall back into the same failed patterns of isolation and hostility.  That's why the progress never sticks.  If all you're going to do is rest on your laurels you can't be surprised when you start to backslide.  Can't ever stop.  Can't ever quit.  'Cause the other side sure won't.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes. You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step. And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step. By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen.

The trouble is that all three items of what you said translates into continued elven suffering and probable death. How many lives are you willing to sacrifice by your delays if there was the possibility of claiming freedom now? And so far as I can tell, it's never stuck and has never improved anything over the way it was before; in fact, the current state is still a regression from several centuries ago.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

But was the consequence they received proportionate to the "crime" they committed?

Did closing their borders to human visitors really warrent losing their borders completely? [/quote]

By itself? No.  What it does do is contibute to a climate of hostility and suspicion which lead to a war and for which the Dalish were partly, if not largely, responsible. [/quote]

Largely responsible because they wanted to be left alone, and refused to convert?

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

And once again, did their isolationist policy warrent the "consequence" of losing their kingdom?
They refused to open their borders to humans, so the humans were entitled to take their kingdom away? [/quote]

Not exactly.  But if the ancient Dalish really did incite or even just willingly/eagerly participate in, a war their human neighbors, then yes, those humans would be very much entitled to "take their kingdom."[/quote]

Which calls into question who started the war. Both sides claim the other initiated hostilities. Of course, Orlais has invaded other nations since its inception, so some of us are skeptical of the Orlesian version.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Last I checked, the Magisters enslaved an entire race and the Magisters were all human, or is there something I missed?

As far as I know, Tevinter society had some free and some enslaved humans, but all elves were slaves. It wasn't equal. [/quote]

Tevinter was and is a society based on blood magic and slavery.  Were you expecting equality?[/quote]

I'm certain the elves ask that question about all of human society.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Their opinions hardly represent the majority, or the opinions of the majority of those in power. [/quote]

As I'm sure you noticed, the opinions and attitudes of both Alistair and Leliana changed over the course of the game.  So it's not their opinions that are of concern to me so much as how willing they were to change them.

Besides, Alistair is the King of Ferelden.  When you're talking about the Crowned Head of a feudal society, what the "majority" think of anything is rather less significant than the modern mind is used to thinking of.  IOW, Alistair's and Arnora's opinions are ones that matter, the same cannot be said of "the majority."[/quote]

The elves who have to deal with the majority might disagree with you.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...
Nor is it just a few "clean, hard-working, useful, and honest" elves, because those already exist and it hasn't changed anything. [/quote]

Did I say "just"?[/quote]

The point is, your suggestion is already going on in Thedas, and has changed nothing.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Elves do demonstrate that humans are in error, but humans choose to ignore the positive examples in favour of focusing on negative examples. If your argument is that the entire elven race has to magically give up all their flaws and magically morph into perfect model citizens and soldiers so that the humans cannot find one negative example to use against them, then that's not going to happen because a) no one's perfect, and no race or culture can consist of all perfect people. [/quote]

Since that wasn't my argument… I'll move on.[/quote]

It read as though that was your argument. You seemed to place blame on the elves for the racism by humans, and suggesting good jobs and clean clothes would change that seemed a bit silly.




[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

All races are going to have positive and negative representatives. Among other things, humans need to learn to recognize this and learn to stop looking down on and withholding opportunities for the entire elven race just because of a few bad examples, because the bad examples aren't going away. [/quote]

Yes.  But here's the thing, if you're asking "the humans" to place any degree of confidence in "the elves", it then becomes incumbent upon those elves to prove themselves worthy of that confidence.[/quote]

I guess helping free humans from slavery and an elf stopping the Fourth Blight don't count.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

I never said that it was all the Orlaisian's fault or that the Dalish were innocent victims. However, I also do not buy the argument that the Dales deserved to lose their kingdom just because they refused to open their borders to human snoops. If the "hostility" originated from elves not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should, or letting humans come in and out as they pleased, then I'd say that humans attitude and course of action was wrong too. [/quote] 

There's a huge difference between the ancient Dalish "not running their kingdom the way humans thought they should" and the ancient Dalish running their kingdom in such a way that their human neighbors could reasonably construe as hostile.[/quote]

Or Orlais was simply doing what it always does - conquer its neighbors. Nevarra and Ferelden can attest to the expansionist policy of Orlais.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Elves do help them do that, but humans choose to overlook their efforts. The elves were the first to join Andraste's army. Shartan was a close friend and general to Andraste. The elves helped to free many humans from Tevinter. Garahel almost single-handedly defeated the Fourth Blight. The Night Elves helped to drive out the Orlaisians in Loghain's Army. An Elven Warden can potentially end the Fifth Blight. The Dalish can potentially help to defeat the Fifth Blight in the final battle. A City Elven Warden can potentially become a Bann of the Denerim Alienage. King Alistair can potentially appoint the Hahren a seat in the Landsmeet.

Yet the attitude stays the same. [/quote]

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes.  You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step.  And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step.  By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen. [/quote]

You seem to be ignoring that elves have contributed, time and again, and that nothing has changed. That the elves have shown that the humans are wrong, but that the status quo remains.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Time and time again in Thedas history elves have joined armies, saved humans, freed humans, and proven their worth as citizens and soldiers. Time and time again in Thedas history humans have chosen to overlook, ignore, and selectively forget elves' positive involvement in favour of focusing only on the negative (such as writing Shartan out of the Canticles of Light after the Exalted March against the Dales) and then use that as an excuse to deny them more opportunities to prove themselves in the future.

If simply joining an army and flashing some positive elven examples was all it took to end human racism and subjugation of elves, it would have worked centuries ago. But humans continue to hold onto their negative attitude toward elves even though positive examples keep proving them wrong. 

The burden of ending human racism against elves cannot rest solely on elven shoulders. [/quote]

Time and time again, whenever the elves make progress they just fall back into the same failed patterns of isolation and hostility.  That's why the progress never sticks.  If all you're going to do is rest on your laurels you can't be surprised when you start to backslide.  Can't ever stop.  Can't ever quit.  'Cause the other side sure won't. [/quote]

It seems to me that you're dismissing the fact that elves have proven humanity wrong about them throughout history, but insisting that elves continue proving themselves despite the fact that centuries have proven that this has accomplished nothing. The city elves still lived in the Alienages after Garahel defeated the Archdemon, they didn't isolate themselves in another nation. I honestly don't see any merit to your arguments when the history if Thedas has disproven them time and again.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

But was the consequence they received proportionate to the "crime" they committed?

Did closing their borders to human visitors really warrent losing their borders completely? [/quote]

By itself? No.  What it does do is contibute to a climate of hostility and suspicion which lead to a war and for which the Dalish were partly, if not largely, responsible. [/quote]

Largely responsible because they wanted to be left alone, and refused to convert?[/quote]

And responded with hostility to any and all attempts at peaceful contact.  Keep in mind the Emerald Knights drove off everyone from missionaries to traders.  I get why they wanted to be left alone, I get why the still want to be left alone, but they don't get that that simply isn't a feasible reality anymore and hasn't been since the elves first encountered humans.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

And once again, did their isolationist policy warrent the "consequence" of losing their kingdom?
They refused to open their borders to humans, so the humans were entitled to take their kingdom away? [/quote]

Not exactly.  But if the ancient Dalish really did incite or even just willingly/eagerly participate in, a war their human neighbors, then yes, those humans would be very much entitled to "take their kingdom."[/quote]

Which calls into question who started the war. Both sides claim the other initiated hostilities. Of course, Orlais has invaded other nations since its inception, so some of us are skeptical of the Orlesian version.[/quote]

So what about the City Elf version?  The City Elves have the same storytelling culture of the Dalish and they agree that the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, the Dalish say nothing of specific events, perhaps because in trying to take the long view (emulating the lengthy decision making processes of Arlathan) they lost sight of what was going on right now.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...
[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Elves do help them do that, but humans choose to overlook their efforts. The elves were the first to join Andraste's army. Shartan was a close friend and general to Andraste. The elves helped to free many humans from Tevinter. Garahel almost single-handedly defeated the Fourth Blight. The Night Elves helped to drive out the Orlaisians in Loghain's Army. An Elven Warden can potentially end the Fifth Blight. The Dalish can potentially help to defeat the Fifth Blight in the final battle. A City Elven Warden can potentially become a Bann of the Denerim Alienage. King Alistair can potentially appoint the Hahren a seat in the Landsmeet.

Yet the attitude stays the same. [/quote]

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes.  You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step.  And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step.  By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen. [/quote]

You seem to be ignoring that elves have contributed, time and again, and that nothing has changed. That the elves have shown that the humans are wrong, but that the status quo remains.[/quote]

He's not really ignoring it he addresses it directly.  The status quo remains because yes while elves do contribute in big ways they immediately fall back into their old patterns.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...
[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Time and time again in Thedas history elves have joined armies, saved humans, freed humans, and proven their worth as citizens and soldiers. Time and time again in Thedas history humans have chosen to overlook, ignore, and selectively forget elves' positive involvement in favour of focusing only on the negative (such as writing Shartan out of the Canticles of Light after the Exalted March against the Dales) and then use that as an excuse to deny them more opportunities to prove themselves in the future.

If simply joining an army and flashing some positive elven examples was all it took to end human racism and subjugation of elves, it would have worked centuries ago. But humans continue to hold onto their negative attitude toward elves even though positive examples keep proving them wrong. 

The burden of ending human racism against elves cannot rest solely on elven shoulders. [/quote]

Time and time again, whenever the elves make progress they just fall back into the same failed patterns of isolation and hostility.  That's why the progress never sticks.  If all you're going to do is rest on your laurels you can't be surprised when you start to backslide.  Can't ever stop.  Can't ever quit.  'Cause the other side sure won't. [/quote]

It seems to me that you're dismissing the fact that elves have proven humanity wrong about them throughout history, but insisting that elves continue proving themselves despite the fact that centuries have proven that this has accomplished nothing. The city elves still lived in the Alienages after Garahel defeated the Archdemon, they didn't isolate themselves in another nation. I honestly don't see any merit to your arguments when the history if Thedas has disproven them time and again.[/quote]

Yes the City Elves still lived in Alienages and did nothing to build on the goodwill and progress Garahel bought them.  Garahel (and others) prove that Elves can contribute, it then falls on the Elves, City or Dalish, to demonstrate that they want to.

Humans: Thank you for helping free us from the slavery of Tevinter, please take this land as our humble thanks.
Elves: Great now ****** off.

Humans: Wow an elf bested the Archdemon in single combat you guys are really something.
Elves: Thanks, now where do you want this shirt.

Every time after the Elves have gained a bit of momentum it stops dead because they aren't willing to push forward on it.  They let the accomplishments rest and see just how far they can take them with no effort on their part.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes. You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step. And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step. By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen.

The trouble is that all three items of what you said translates into continued elven suffering and probable death. How many lives are you willing to sacrifice by your delays if there was the possibility of claiming freedom now? And so far as I can tell, it's never stuck and has never improved anything over the way it was before; in fact, the current state is still a regression from several centuries ago.

If it's preserving lives that you're worried about, then a violent rebellion should be absolutely unacceptable to you.  Nothing could possibly waste more lives in the present, or set future generations up to make the same mistakes more than that.    

[Xilizhra]

The current generations keep on making the same mistakes century after century after century. If you can think of something nonviolent, fine, but it has to be quick and it has to be decisive. I'm not sure what would do other than violence, but maybe you can think of something.

[Dave of Canada]

Rebellions almost never work and only serve to make matters worse in most cases.

[General User]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

But was the consequence they received proportionate to the "crime" they committed?

Did closing their borders to human visitors really warrent losing their borders completely? [/quote]

By itself? No.  What it does do is contibute to a climate of hostility and suspicion which lead to a war and for which the Dalish were partly, if not largely, responsible. [/quote]

Largely responsible because they wanted to be left alone, and refused to convert?[/quote]

And responded with hostility to any and all attempts at peaceful contact.  Keep in mind the Emerald Knights drove off everyone from missionaries to traders.  I get why they wanted to be left alone, I get why the still want to be left alone, but they don't get that that simply isn't a feasible reality anymore and hasn't been since the elves first encountered humans.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]Faerunner wrote...

And once again, did their isolationist policy warrent the "consequence" of losing their kingdom?
They refused to open their borders to humans, so the humans were entitled to take their kingdom away? [/quote]

Not exactly.  But if the ancient Dalish really did incite or even just willingly/eagerly participate in, a war their human neighbors, then yes, those humans would be very much entitled to "take their kingdom."[/quote]

Which calls into question who started the war. Both sides claim the other initiated hostilities. Of course, Orlais has invaded other nations since its inception, so some of us are skeptical of the Orlesian version.[/quote]

So what about the City Elf version?  The City Elves have the same storytelling culture of the Dalish and they agree that the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, the Dalish say nothing of specific events, perhaps because in trying to take the long view (emulating the lengthy decision making processes of Arlathan) they lost sight of what was going on right now.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...
[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Elves do help them do that, but humans choose to overlook their efforts. The elves were the first to join Andraste's army. Shartan was a close friend and general to Andraste. The elves helped to free many humans from Tevinter. Garahel almost single-handedly defeated the Fourth Blight. The Night Elves helped to drive out the Orlaisians in Loghain's Army. An Elven Warden can potentially end the Fifth Blight. The Dalish can potentially help to defeat the Fifth Blight in the final battle. A City Elven Warden can potentially become a Bann of the Denerim Alienage. King Alistair can potentially appoint the Hahren a seat in the Landsmeet.

Yet the attitude stays the same. [/quote]

Once again, you cannot change people's attitudes.  You can only show them that they are wrong and hope they take the next step.  And, by your own examples, many humans have indeed taken that next step.  By being of service to their nations the elves have made progress, it may not be as fast as you might like, or go in the exact direction you might like, and it doesn't always stick (often because no one, including the elves themselves, ever really follows up or builds on that progress), but it does happen. [/quote]

You seem to be ignoring that elves have contributed, time and again, and that nothing has changed. That the elves have shown that the humans are wrong, but that the status quo remains.[/quote]

He's not really ignoring it he addresses it directly.  The status quo remains because yes while elves do contribute in big ways they immediately fall back into their old patterns.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]General User wrote...
[quote]Faerunner wrote...

Time and time again in Thedas history elves have joined armies, saved humans, freed humans, and proven their worth as citizens and soldiers. Time and time again in Thedas history humans have chosen to overlook, ignore, and selectively forget elves' positive involvement in favour of focusing only on the negative (such as writing Shartan out of the Canticles of Light after the Exalted March against the Dales) and then use that as an excuse to deny them more opportunities to prove themselves in the future.

If simply joining an army and flashing some positive elven examples was all it took to end human racism and subjugation of elves, it would have worked centuries ago. But humans continue to hold onto their negative attitude toward elves even though positive examples keep proving them wrong. 

The burden of ending human racism against elves cannot rest solely on elven shoulders. [/quote]

Time and time again, whenever the elves make progress they just fall back into the same failed patterns of isolation and hostility.  That's why the progress never sticks.  If all you're going to do is rest on your laurels you can't be surprised when you start to backslide.  Can't ever stop.  Can't ever quit.  'Cause the other side sure won't. [/quote]

It seems to me that you're dismissing the fact that elves have proven humanity wrong about them throughout history, but insisting that elves continue proving themselves despite the fact that centuries have proven that this has accomplished nothing. The city elves still lived in the Alienages after Garahel defeated the Archdemon, they didn't isolate themselves in another nation. I honestly don't see any merit to your arguments when the history if Thedas has disproven them time and again.[/quote]

Yes the City Elves still lived in Alienages and did nothing to build on the goodwill and progress Garahel bought them.  Garahel (and others) prove that Elves can contribute, it then falls on the Elves, City or Dalish, to demonstrate that they want to.

Humans: Thank you for helping free us from the slavery of Tevinter, please take this land as our humble thanks.
Elves: Great now ****** off.

Humans: Wow an elf bested the Archdemon in single combat you guys are really something.
Elves: Thanks, now where do you want this shirt.

Every time after the Elves have gained a bit of momentum it stops dead because they aren't willing to push forward on it.  They let the accomplishments rest and see just how far they can take them with no effort on their part.[/quote]Aye and well said. 

As I've said, social change is a fluid process, not a math problem.  You don't "prove" a theorum and then it stays true forever.  Things change, people change, attitudes change.  "Proving their worth" has never really been the elves problem so much as following through.

Take Garahel.  She was a shining example of what elves are indeed capable of.  But if elves are sufficiently willing to follow that example, Garahel's legacy goes from "beacon of reform" to "historical curiosity."

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The current generations keep on making the same mistakes century after century after century.

Indeed.  Don't you think it's time we did something about that?

Xilizhra wrote...

If you can think of something nonviolent, fine, but it has to be quick and it has to be decisive. I'm not sure what would do other than violence, but maybe you can think of something.

If it's quick and decisive you want, then again, violent rebellion should be unacceptable to you.  They have a marked tendency to be bloody, protracted, and repeated by future generations.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[Xilizhra]

As I've said, social change is a fluid process, not a math problem. You don't "prove" a theorum and then it stays true forever. Things change, people change, attitudes change. "Proving their worth" has never really been the elves problem so much as following through.

The problem is that humans never allow this.

Indeed. Don't you think it's time we did something about that?

Fortunately, we are. Have of the established bigoted power structure is already crumbling. If we can get Orlais to collapse and possibly spur on some kind of elven union between the city and the Dalish, that should help a lot.

If it's quick and decisive you want, then again, violent rebellion should be unacceptable to you. They have a tendency to be bloody, protracted, and repeated by future generations.

Then what would be better?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fortunately, we are. Have of the established bigoted power structure is already crumbling. If we can get Orlais to collapse and possibly spur on some kind of elven union between the city and the Dalish, that should help a lot.

Your reign of terror is over!  Let my reign of terror begin!

Xilizhra wrote...

Then what would be better?

For the city elves?  Best case would be equal justice under the law with a regard to social station independent of race.  For the Dalish elves?  A homeland is in order.  Let's hope they don't make the same mistakes they did last time.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Largely responsible because they wanted to be left alone, and refused to convert?

And responded with hostility to any and all attempts at peaceful contact.  Keep in mind the Emerald Knights drove off everyone from missionaries to traders.  I get why they wanted to be left alone, I get why the still want to be left alone, but they don't get that that simply isn't a feasible reality anymore and hasn't been since the elves first encountered humans.

The elves aren't under any obligation to capitulate on their beliefs simply because humans wish it was otherwise. And sending templars into their territory because they refused to convert is hardly "peaceful."

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which calls into question who started the war. Both sides claim the other initiated hostilities. Of course, Orlais has invaded other nations since its inception, so some of us are skeptical of the Orlesian version.

So what about the City Elf version?  The City Elves have the same storytelling culture of the Dalish and they agree that the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, the Dalish say nothing of specific events, perhaps because in trying to take the long view (emulating the lengthy decision making processes of Arlathan) they lost sight of what was going on right now.

The City Elf version is the same as the Chantry/Orlesian version. The City Elves barely remember any of their own history, their gods, or their culture. They worship a human god, get married by the Chantry, and tell the same historical account that the Chantry does.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to be ignoring that elves have contributed, time and again, and that nothing has changed. That the elves have shown that the humans are wrong, but that the status quo remains.

He's not really ignoring it he addresses it directly.  The status quo remains because yes while elves do contribute in big ways they immediately fall back into their old patterns.

You mean the elves of the Dales who had the audacity to want their own homeland and culture after humans destroyed their original kingdom and enslaved them, or the city elves who still lived in poverty and in ghettos despite Garahel's actions in the Fourth Blight? Blaming the elves for not changing how the humans rule over them makes no sense. The impoverished and powerless elves aren't in a position to change the status quo.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to me that you're dismissing the fact that elves have proven humanity wrong about them throughout history, but insisting that elves continue proving themselves despite the fact that centuries have proven that this has accomplished nothing. The city elves still lived in the Alienages after Garahel defeated the Archdemon, they didn't isolate themselves in another nation. I honestly don't see any merit to your arguments when the history if Thedas has disproven them time and again.

Yes the City Elves still lived in Alienages and did nothing to build on the goodwill and progress Garahel bought them.  Garahel (and others) prove that Elves can contribute, it then falls on the Elves, City or Dalish, to demonstrate that they want to.

Humans: Thank you for helping free us from the slavery of Tevinter, please take this land as our humble thanks.
Elves: Great now ****** off.

Humans: Wow an elf bested the Archdemon in single combat you guys are really something.
Elves: Thanks, now where do you want this shirt.

Every time after the Elves have gained a bit of momentum it stops dead because they aren't willing to push forward on it.  They let the accomplishments rest and see just how far they can take them with no effort on their part.

The City Elves were impoverished and powerless, and the Dalish refuse to convert to the Chantry. A couple of ridiculous dialogue examples from you doesn't change the reality of the situation when history has shown that elves will rise to the challenge (like the Night Elves), but that the status quo remains.