394 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Your reign of terror is over! Let my reign of terror begin!

So far, there's no reign.

For the city elves? Best case would be equal justice under the law with a regard to social station independent of race. For the Dalish elves? A homeland is in order. Let's hope they don't make the same mistakes they did last time.

I think the only way either can happen is to collapse most of the existing governments and spur the elves on to take an equal role in rebuilding. As for the Dalish... well, with the Chantry's army gone and Orlais hopefully burning, they won't have a chance to make the mistake of choosing terrible neighbors.

[Dave of Canada]

The only hope for City Elves would be peaceful reform, something along the lines of the Tabris Warden having a position in court and influencing the kingdom's politics.

May take centuries before any progress is made but rebellion has never helped anyone, often makes the "victim" suffer worse conditions due to the failed uprising and any good will disappears.

Should they succeed--which is practically impossible unless they ally with someone else--they'd only try to turn the tables and justify the hatred.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:08 .

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves aren't under any obligation to capitulate on their beliefs simply because humans wish it was otherwise. And sending templars into their territory because they refused to convert is hardly "peaceful."

What about sending Templars into Dalish territory to protect the lives of Chantry converts (ie elves)?  For every scenario the paints the dalish as the wronged party you could just as easily come up with one that puts the Orlesians in the white hats if you were so inclined. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves of the Dales who had the audacity to want their own homeland and culture after humans destroyed their original kingdom and enslaved them, or the city elves who still lived in poverty and in ghettos despite Garahel's actions in the Fourth Blight? Blaming the elves for not changing how the humans rule over them makes no sense. The impoverished and powerless elves aren't in a position to change the status quo.

They have the power to change themselves.  Focus on that and let the status quo change in its own time.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The City Elves were impoverished and powerless, and the Dalish refuse to convert to the Chantry. A couple of ridiculous dialogue examples from you doesn't change the reality of the situation when history has shown that elves will rise to the challenge (like the Night Elves), but that the status quo remains.

That's just not true.  The status quo has changed, several times.  It may not always be in the way or direction you might have liked.  But the relationship between humans and elves has been anything but static.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

So far, there's no reign.

Let's keep it that way.

Xilizhra wrote...

I think the only way either can happen is to collapse most of the existing governments and spur the elves on to take an equal role in rebuilding. As for the Dalish... well, with the Chantry's army gone and Orlais hopefully burning, they won't have a chance to make the mistake of choosing terrible neighbors.

When your attiude towards non-elves is almost literally "treat them like the plague" you might be surprised just how many people will end up in the "terrible" neighbors catagory.

[Xilizhra]

The only hope for City Elves would be peaceful reform, something along the lines of the Tabris Warden having a position in court and influencing the kingdom's politics.

I would have more hope for this if the CE Warden's choice was even recorded.

The have the power to change themselves. Focus on that and let the status quo change in its own time.

It hasn't, and it won't. There comes a time when you have to change the world.

That's just not true. The status quo has changed, several times. It may not always be in the way or direction you might have liked. But the relationship between humans and elves has been anything but static.

It's not static, but it keeps going back to the ground state of being terrible.

When your attiude towards non-elves is almost literally "treat them like
the plague" you might be surprised just how many people will end up in
the "terrible" neighbors catagory.

When they literally are the plague, I'm not freaking going to blame them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

It hasn't, and it won't. There comes a time when you have to change the world.

If you want to change the world you need to start by changing yourself.  Have you never heard a John Lennon song?

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not static, but it keeps going back to the ground state of being terrible.

And the elves themselves are far from blameless for that.

Xilizhra wrote...

When they literally are the plague, I'm not freaking going to blame them.

And that's a fine example of the attitude the elves have to overcome if they ever want to live in peace with other races.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would have more hope for this if the CE Warden's choice was even recorded.

Doesn't need to be, City Elves always make progress no matter who's in charge with Tabris involved. It never ends well but that's because it'll take centuries before any real change is made.

It hasn't, and it won't. There comes a time when you have to change the world.

When the world is as static as Thedas, it won't change over-night.

[Xilizhra]

If you want to change the world you need to start by changing yourself. Have you never heard a John Lennon song?

Start by changing yourself, but if the rest of the world won't pay attention, you need to make them do so.

And the elves themselves are far from blameless for that.

Victim blaming is rarely attractive. Their culture has been engineered by human oppression to promote stasis.

And that's a fine example of the attitude the elves have to overcome if they ever want to live in peace with other races.

It's also literally true. In fact, if I recall, Dalish elves actually live longer than city elves because they're away from humanity's metaphysical, lethal taint.

When the world is as static as Thedas, it won't change over-night.

Maybe not, but we can work on making it faster.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe not, but we can work on making it faster.

Or make it worse and erase all good will.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe not, but we can work on making it faster.

Or make it worse and erase all good will.

The amount of "goodwill" is almost nonexistent as it is.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves aren't under any obligation to capitulate on their beliefs simply because humans wish it was otherwise. And sending templars into their territory because they refused to convert is hardly "peaceful."

What about sending Templars into Dalish territory to protect the lives of Chantry converts (ie elves)?  For every scenario the paints the dalish as the wronged party you could just as easily come up with one that puts the Orlesians in the white hats if you were so inclined.  

Since the Chantry never made that claim, and the Dalish address templars were sent into the Dales as a result of kicking out the missionaries and refusing to convert, I'll deal with the two versions in the narrative.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the elves of the Dales who had the audacity to want their own homeland and culture after humans destroyed their original kingdom and enslaved them, or the city elves who still lived in poverty and in ghettos despite Garahel's actions in the Fourth Blight? Blaming the elves for not changing how the humans rule over them makes no sense. The impoverished and powerless elves aren't in a position to change the status quo.

They have the power to change themselves.  Focus on that and let the status quo change in its own time.

They have limited resources, food, and job opportunities. You seem to be handwaving their plight.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The City Elves were impoverished and powerless, and the Dalish refuse to convert to the Chantry. A couple of ridiculous dialogue examples from you doesn't change the reality of the situation when history has shown that elves will rise to the challenge (like the Night Elves), but that the status quo remains.

That's just not true.  The status quo has changed, several times.  It may not always be in the way or direction you might have liked.  But the relationship between humans and elves has been anything but static.

It seems to be different shares of oppression to me, until humans need them (i.e. the Blight). That doesn't really support your argument.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

The amount of "goodwill" is almost nonexistent as it is.

Allowing them to work alongside humans, serve (most) nobility and having the Queen's handmaiden being an elf shows progress is being made among the elven community. In addition, Alistair as King prevents the elves from being culled a third time in a row.

Edit:

It's also literally true. In fact, if I recall, Dalish elves actually live longer than city elves because they're away from humanity's metaphysical, lethal taint. 

Perhaps it's being in nature hunting your own food and generally being healthy rather than starving in the slums.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:35 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Start by changing yourself, but if the rest of the world won't pay attention, you need to make them do so.

Just make sure it's the kind of attention you want.

Xilizhra wrote...

Victim blaming is rarely attractive. Their culture has been engineered by human oppression to promote stasis.

What can I say?  The truth can be ugly sometimes. 

Xilizhra wrote...

It's also literally true. In fact, if I recall, Dalish elves actually live longer than city elves because they're away from humanity's metaphysical, lethal taint.

If elves truely cannot coexist with other races and peoples, then they need to leave Thedas to find their own land.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The amount of "goodwill" is almost nonexistent as it is.

Allowing them to work alongside humans, serve (most) nobility and having the Queen's handmaiden being an elf shows progress is being made among the elven community. In addition, Alistair as King prevents the elves from being culled a third time in a row.

Allowing them positions of servitude doesn't really say much about "goodwill."

[Xilizhra]

Allowing them to work alongside humans, serve (most) nobility and having the Queen's handmaiden being an elf shows progress is being made among the elven community. In addition, Alistair as King prevents the elves from being culled a third time in a row.

Is any of this different from past status quos? And I'm not impressed by Alistair doing that; it's his job. If he's the only king in ages who isn't so incompetent, good for him; now actually do something good instead of keeping an inadequate status quo.

What can I say? The truth can be ugly sometimes.

Maybe so, but it's not the truth. Humans have set up elven culture for constant falls. It's true that elves need to break out of this, but that need isn't right anymore than any victim of trauma's need to get past any of it on their own.

If elves truely cannot coexist with other races and peoples, then they need to leave Thedas to find their own land.

Elves are native to Thedas; humans are overseas invaders.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Allowing them positions of servitude doesn't really say much about "goodwill."

Considering the employment available to elves in general, being allowed to serve nobles is kind-of large. It's not a position anyone can take, least when slavery isn't involved.

Is any of this different from past status quos?

Considering they were formely slaves and now they're being paid for their employment and given quarters in the nobility's estate in most cases (depending where, Highever for example) is good progress compared to former status quos.

And I'm not impressed by Alistair doing that; it's his job.

It's not, he can do with them as he pleases--he's just more respectful than most monarchs. Anora culls them when she's solo-Queen or married to Cousland.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Allowing them positions of servitude doesn't really say much about "goodwill."

Considering the employment available to elves in general, being allowed to serve nobles is kind-of large. It's not a position anyone can take.

Iona mentions it's still frequently abusive and totally dependent on the noble's goodwill.

Considering they were formely slaves and now they're being paid for their employment and given quarters in the nobility's estate in most cases (depending where, Highever for example) is good progress compared to former status quos.

They still are slaves. Orlais practices it under a prettier name, Antiva and Tevinter don't bother (maybe Nevarra as well, though I forget), and then there's the ever-present practice of wage slavery.

It's not, he can do with them as he pleases--he's just more respectful than most monarchs. Anora culls them when she's solo-Queen or married to Cousland.

Yes, and Anora shows her colors of evil there. However, at least in my own opinion, the only way this monarchy thing has any right of working out is if the ruler protects all of their subjects. I'm not going to be impressed by an ounce of decency.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .

[Dave of Canada]

Of course it isn't sunshine and roses but it does go to show that some elves are treated almost equal to humans.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since the Chantry never made that claim, and the Dalish address templars were sent into the Dales as a result of kicking out the missionaries and refusing to convert, I'll deal with the two versions in the narrative.

The problem of course with "the two versions in the narrative" is that they are both horribly biased and partisan.  The only sensible option is to acknowledge that the truth is obscure and that both sides most likely share the blood guilt for the ancient conflict between them.

LobselVith8 wrote...

They have limited resources, food, and job opportunities. You seem to be handwaving their plight.

Really?  Was it with you or someone else that I referred to the elve's struggle for respectability as being "the Mt. Everest of uphill battles"?

LobselVith8 wrote...
It seems to be different shares of oppression to me, until humans need them (i.e. the Blight). That doesn't really support your argument.

What can I tell you?  Elves have served faithfully, been rewarded for that service, and then their successors proceeded to either not follow through,or worse, actively backslide.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Of course it isn't sunshine and roses but it does go to show that some elves are treated almost equal to humans.

Pre-Civil War, I'm certain some black people were treated as almost equal to white people in some locations. Did this help the situation of the ones who weren't at all?

The problem of course with "the two versions in the narrative" is that
they are both horribly biased and partisan.  The only sensible option is
to acknowledge that the truth is obscure and that both sides most
likely share the blood guilt for the ancient conflict between them.

The humans were killing the elves by their presence. There's no equality here.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:53 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe so, but it's not the truth. Humans have set up elven culture for constant falls. It's true that elves need to break out of this, but that need isn't right anymore than any victim of trauma's need to get past any of it on their own.

On their own!?!  My whole thing is how elves need to integrate more fully into the cultures and societies of the kindgoms in which they reside. 

Xilizhra wrote...

Elves are native to Thedas; humans are overseas invaders.

Elves may have been here before humans, but that doesn't really mean all that much.  Things change.  Now, humans are native to Thedas too.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Pre-Civil War, I'm certain some black people were treated as almost
equal to white people in some locations. Did this help the situation of
the ones who weren't at all?

Yes.  It did.  Quite a bit actually.

[Dave of Canada]

Without going too much into real world politics, the civil war's political climate (which had some influences itself by the african americans being treated like equals) mostly influenced the state of affairs for African American slaves. The political climate in Thedas is far from anything close to it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

On their own!?! My whole thing is how elves need to integrate more fully into the cultures and societies of the kindgoms in which they reside.

Yes, but many of the older power-structures should likely be taken down.

Elves may have been here before humans, but that doesn't really mean all that much. Things change. Now, humans are native to Thedas too.

It sucks, yes, but the elves have a greater ancestral claim to the place.

Yes. It did. Quite a bit actually.

I misspoke, my apologies. It may have helped, but it didn't reduce the need for several revolts and a brutal war.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since the Chantry never made that claim, and the Dalish address templars were sent into the Dales as a result of kicking out the missionaries and refusing to convert, I'll deal with the two versions in the narrative.

The problem of course with "the two versions in the narrative" is that they are both horribly biased and partisan.  The only sensible option is to acknowledge that the truth is obscure and that both sides most likely share the blood guilt for the ancient conflict between them.

Historically, Orlais conquers other nations. Why would the Dales be any different than Nevarra and Ferelden?

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They have limited resources, food, and job opportunities. You seem to be handwaving their plight.

Really?  Was it with you or someone else that I referred to the elve's struggle for respectability as being "the Mt. Everest of uphill battles"?

If I recall, you were the one who mentioned good clothes and a good job as the solution.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seems to be different shares of oppression to me, until humans need them (i.e. the Blight). That doesn't really support your argument.

What can I tell you?  Elves have served faithfully, been rewarded for that service, and then their successors proceeded to either not follow through,or worse, actively backslide.

By wanting to live in their own homeland on their terms. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:08 .