394 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but many of the older power-structures should likely be taken down.

Some should. Some shouldn't.

Xilizhra wrote...

It sucks, yes, but the elves have a greater ancestral claim to the place.

An older claim maybe.  But not necessarily a better one.

Xilizhra wrote...

I misspoke, my apologies. It may have helped, but it didn't reduce the need for several revolts and a brutal war.

Don't apologize!  You're on to something.  Think about it.  In United States history the various slave revolts that cropped up from time to time were horrific bloody affairs that not only accomplished nothing, but only made slavery worse.  But the Civil War... the preexisting central government asserting it's authority... that's what ended slavery and set the stage for all that followed.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe so, but it's not the truth. Humans have set up elven culture for constant falls. It's true that elves need to break out of this, but that need isn't right anymore than any victim of trauma's need to get past any of it on their own.

On their own!?!  My whole thing is how elves need to integrate more fully into the cultures and societies of the kindgoms in which they reside.  

So the elves should surrender their cultural identity and religious beliefs to accommodate the humans? Doesn't seem to have worked too well for the city elves.

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Elves are native to Thedas; humans are overseas invaders.

Elves may have been here before humans, but that doesn't really mean all that much.  Things change.  Now, humans are native to Thedas too.

Maybe she should have pointed out that suggesting elves leave Thedas was a bit ludicrous on your part.

[Xilizhra]

Don't apologize! You're on to something. Think about it. In United States history the various slave revolts that cropped up from time to time were horrific bloody affairs that not only accomplished nothing, but only made slavery worse. But the Civil War... the preexisting central government asserting it's authority... that's what ended slavery and set the stage for all that followed.

It did accomplish something; it was a sign of how things were intolerable. A lot of the South's justification was about how slaves liked slavery. Every sign of resistance was another crack in that facade, and brought many of those in the North to a further boiling point.

An older claim maybe. But not necessarily a better one.

Perhaps the humans can pull back from some of the southern regions and have the elves settle there.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Historically, Orlais conquers other nations. Why would the Dales be any different than Nevarra and Ferelden?

Good question.  The obvious answer is that the Dales were different because it was full of elves.  Here's another:  Why were Nevarra and Ferelden, and the Free Marches, and the Tevinter Imperium, and even the Andals, and even the Qunari able to find a way to reach an accomodation with the Orlesian Empire but the Dales were not?

LobselVith8 wrote...

If I recall, you were the one who mentioned good clothes and a good job as the solution.

Then, to misquote Sten, "you must have either an enviable memory or pitiable comprehension skills."

LobselVith8 wrote...

By wanting to live in their own homeland on their terms. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

That depends on what exactly those terms are.  If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

[Xilizhra]

Good question. The obvious answer is that the Dales were different because it was full of elves. Here's another: Why were Nevarra and Ferelden, and the Free Marches, and the Tevinter Imperium, and even the Andals, and even the Qunari able to find a way to reach an accomodation with the Orlesian Empire but the Dales were not?

They won their wars? Nevarra is Orlais' out-and-out rival/enemy, Ferelden is obvious, and the Free Marches eventually threw off their own Orlesian rulers. The Anderfels, Tevinter and qunari are all too far away from Orlais for it to conquer them without going through other places first.

That depends on what exactly those terms are. If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

Not kicking the door in and slaughtering them all for trying to keep themselves alive and away from humanity's curse?

[Fallstar]

General User wrote...
That depends on what exactly those terms are.  If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

It did accomplish something; it was a sign of how things were intolerable. A lot of the South's justification was about how slaves liked slavery. Every sign of resistance was another crack in that facade, and brought many of those in the North to a further boiling point.

You might want to brush up on your US history.  It wasn't the North that reached it's "boiling point", but the South.

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps the humans can pull back from some of the southern regions and have the elves settle there.

I think the elves deserve a bit better that a smatering of tundra, don't you? 

[Xilizhra]

You might want to brush up on your US history. It wasn't the North that reached it's "boiling point", but the South.

True enough, but much of this was due to the North's anti-slavery actions with western territories and the like. The North's negative attitude on slavery was a major source of this.

I think the elves deserve a bit better that a smatering of tundra, don't you?

They founded the Dales in the south.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

They won their wars? Nevarra is Orlais' out-and-out rival/enemy, Ferelden is obvious, and the Free Marches eventually threw off their own Orlesian rulers. The Anderfels, Tevinter and qunari are all too far away from Orlais for it to conquer them without going through other places first.

That's sort of my point.  All sorts of different peoples and nations.  Different races, languages, cultures, and religions, and all of them, some how some way, managed to find a place for themselves in the same world as the Orlesians... but not the Dales.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They won their wars? Nevarra is Orlais' out-and-out rival/enemy, Ferelden is obvious, and the Free Marches eventually threw off their own Orlesian rulers. The Anderfels, Tevinter and qunari are all too far away from Orlais for it to conquer them without going through other places first.

That's sort of my point.  All sorts of different peoples and nations.  Different races, languages, cultures, and religions, and all of them, some how some way, managed to find a place for themselves in the same world as the Orlesians... but not the Dales.

Yes, because the Dales lost and Orlais conquered it, subsequently enacting extremely racist policies against the conquered that prevented them from being able to rebel like Ferelden did. A country can't rebel if it's been completely destroyed and scattered.

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...
That depends on what exactly those terms are.  If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

You're close.  While "country X closing its borders" might or might not by itself be sufficient justification for a war.  County X closing it's borders could easily be seen as part of a pattern of hostility that could lead to a war.  A war for which Country X would be far from blameless.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...
That depends on what exactly those terms are.  If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

You're close.  While "country X closing its borders" might or might not by itself be sufficient justification for a war.  County X closing it's borders could easily be seen as part of a pattern of hostility that could lead to a war.  A war for which Country X would be far from blameless.

Not if they're just trying to not Quicken to death.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They won their wars? Nevarra is Orlais' out-and-out rival/enemy, Ferelden is obvious, and the Free Marches eventually threw off their own Orlesian rulers. The Anderfels, Tevinter and qunari are all too far away from Orlais for it to conquer them without going through other places first.

That's sort of my point.  All sorts of different peoples and nations.  Different races, languages, cultures, and religions, and all of them, some how some way, managed to find a place for themselves in the same world as the Orlesians... but not the Dales.

Yes, because the Dales lost and Orlais conquered it, subsequently enacting extremely racist policies against the conquered that prevented them from being able to rebel like Ferelden did. A country can't rebel if it's been completely destroyed and scattered.

Neither the Orlesian conquest of the Dales, nor the total war aspect of that confilct were ever a forgone conclusion.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...
That depends on what exactly those terms are.  If a people wall themselves off from their neighbors to pusue a doctrine of racial superiority, it is quite ureasonable for them to expect decent relations with those neighbors.

It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

You're close.  While "country X closing its borders" might or might not by itself be sufficient justification for a war.  County X closing it's borders could easily be seen as part of a pattern of hostility that could lead to a war.  A war for which Country X would be far from blameless.

Not if they're just trying to not Quicken to death.

I'm not sure how else to say it.  If the elves truely must/want to live without contact with other races, they need to settle in a land where they have no neighbors.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:42 .

[Xilizhra]

Neither the Orlesian conquest of the Dales, nor the total war aspect of that confilct were ever a forgone conclusion.

None of those other wars were foregone conclusions either, and Orlais has certainly never played nice with Ferelden, so I doubt they did anywhere else. The only difference in this conflict is that Orlais was more powerful and the Dales lost.

I'm not sure how else to say it. If the elves truely must/want to live without contact with other races, they need to settle in a land where they have no neighbors.

I don't think dwarves kill them, just humans. But if there are no areas without neighbors, then I believe it's the responsibility of at least some humans to move to the side some.

[Fallstar]

General User wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

You're close.  While "country X closing its borders" might or might not by itself be sufficient justification for a war.  County X closing it's borders could easily be seen as part of a pattern of hostility that could lead to a war.  A war for which Country X would be far from blameless.

When said pattern of hostility consists of closing your borders and a single attack on Red Crossing which was supposedly perpetrated by elves, that doesn't start wars. If the elves had been raiding multiple Orlesian villages, sure that constitutes a pattern of hostility. Especially when the Orlesian King/Queen at the time (not sure who it was) had no way of being certain the elves of the Dales were responsible. If there were survivors who confirmed the attackers to be elven, well those elves could have been bandits. If Orlais wasn't just waiting to start a war, they would have accepted an alternative explanation. Hell, even asked for an alternative explanation, before declaring a religous war.

Orlais's behaviour suggests that they were just waiting for any reason to start a war. Most likely due to chantry pressure. This calls into question not just whether the elven raid on Red Crossing was made by elves of the Dales, but also whether the raid was unprovoked. The chantry and affiliated organisations have a history of altering records to suit themselves after all.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

None of those other wars were foregone conclusions either, and Orlais has certainly never played nice with Ferelden, so I doubt they did anywhere else. The only difference in this conflict is that Orlais was more powerful and the Dales lost.

Exactly!  None of those conflicts were forgone conculsions.  They all had their own causes and resolutions.  Now, I was under the impression that the Dalish nearly won their war with Orlais, so unless I'm mistaken, the failure to reach an accomodation in the Dalish War was not for lack of power or strenght on the elves part.

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think dwarves kill them, just humans. But if there are no areas without neighbors, then I believe it's the responsibility of at least some humans to move to the side some.

You can ethnically cleanse as large a region as you like, but if the elves don't change the way they relate to other races, it'll only be a matter of time before the same problems crop back up.

[Xilizhra]

Exactly! None of those conflicts were forgone conculsions. They all had their own causes and resolutions. Now, I was under the impression that the Dalish nearly won their war with Orlais, so unless I'm mistaken, the failure to reach an accomodation in the Dalish War was not for lack of power or strenght on the elves part.

"Nearly" only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades. The fact that they did lose is what made the difference.

You can ethnically cleanse as large a region as you like, but if the elves don't change the way they relate to other races, it'll only be a matter of time before the same problems crop back up.

The elves cannot change anything if they want to survive, so it's up to the humans in the end.

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
It's their country, if they want to close the borders to humans they can. The same as country X can close its borders to people from country Y if they want to. Whilst country X wouldn't expect good relations from country Y, country X closing its borders doesn't even remotely justify war. 

You're close.  While "country X closing its borders" might or might not by itself be sufficient justification for a war.  County X closing it's borders could easily be seen as part of a pattern of hostility that could lead to a war.  A war for which Country X would be far from blameless.

When said pattern of hostility consists of closing your borders and a single attack on Red Crossing which was supposedly perpetrated by elves, that doesn't start wars. If the elves had been raiding multiple Orlesian villages, sure that constitutes a pattern of hostility. Especially when the Orlesian King/Queen at the time (not sure who it was) had no way of being certain the elves of the Dales were responsible. If there were survivors who confirmed the attackers to be elven, well those elves could have been bandits. If Orlais wasn't just waiting to start a war, they would have accepted an alternative explanation. Hell, even asked for an alternative explanation, before declaring a religous war.

Orlais's behaviour suggests that they were just waiting for any reason to start a war. Most likely due to chantry pressure. This calls into question not just whether the elven raid on Red Crossing was made by elves of the Dales, but also whether the raid was unprovoked. The chantry and affiliated organisations have a history of altering records to suit themselves after all.

Orlais behavior also suggests that they were responding to a border incident with a nation with whom they shared a long history of mutual hostility and suspicion.  I like that version better since it steers well away from "conspiracy theory" country.

The Chantry and affiliated organisations also have a long reputation of scholarship.  Since the Dalish... don't.  And they have few, if any, written records to alter even if they wanted to.  I'm more inclined to put more stock in the Chantry's version than the Dalish's.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Nearly" only counts for horseshoes and hand grenades. The fact that they did lose is what made the difference.

Yes, but why?  Why did the conflict take the total war aspect that it did?  And why did all the human nations rally to the Orlesian's defense?  You can try to lay the whole thing at the Orlesians feet, but that's shallow, one-sided, simplistic and not reflective of reality.

Xilizhra wrote...

The elves cannot change anything if they want to survive, so it's up to the humans in the end.

Elves relying on humans for their survival... no way that can go wrong!

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Largely responsible because they wanted to be left alone, and refused to convert?[/quote]

And responded with hostility to any and all attempts at peaceful contact.  Keep in mind the Emerald Knights drove off everyone from missionaries to traders.  I get why they wanted to be left alone, I get why the still want to be left alone, but they don't get that that simply isn't a feasible reality anymore and hasn't been since the elves first encountered humans.[/quote]

The elves aren't under any obligation to capitulate on their beliefs simply because humans wish it was otherwise. And sending templars into their territory because they refused to convert is hardly "peaceful."[/quote]

I'm talking the 300 years they ruled over the land, and not even their refusal to convert.  The Dwarves refuse to convert to the Chantry's religion and they don't have any troubles, because they're otherwise welcoming.  The Elves for 300 years drove off or killed anyone extending an olive branch to them; traders, diplomats, priests, etc. all of them were given the boot.  Like I said isolation isn't a viable option, it never has been, and the Dalish refusal to get that is no one's fault but their own.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Which calls into question who started the war. Both sides claim the other initiated hostilities. Of course, Orlais has invaded other nations since its inception, so some of us are skeptical of the Orlesian version.[/quote]

So what about the City Elf version?  The City Elves have the same storytelling culture of the Dalish and they agree that the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, the Dalish say nothing of specific events, perhaps because in trying to take the long view (emulating the lengthy decision making processes of Arlathan) they lost sight of what was going on right now.[/quote]

The City Elf version is the same as the Chantry/Orlesian version. The City Elves barely remember any of their own history, their gods, or their culture. They worship a human god, get married by the Chantry, and tell the same historical account that the Chantry does.[/quote]

Except it's not the same, not exactly, and varies in the fine details.  If anyone had a reason to maintain the elves were attacked unprovoked by humans it's the ones suffering under their thumb, and they don't.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You seem to be ignoring that elves have contributed, time and again, and that nothing has changed. That the elves have shown that the humans are wrong, but that the status quo remains.[/quote]

He's not really ignoring it he addresses it directly.  The status quo remains because yes while elves do contribute in big ways they immediately fall back into their old patterns.[/quote]

You mean the elves of the Dales who had the audacity to want their own homeland and culture after humans destroyed their original kingdom and enslaved them, or the city elves who still lived in poverty and in ghettos despite Garahel's actions in the Fourth Blight?[/quote]
 
Yes the elves who did nothing but fall back on old behaviours of failure.  The Dales knew what happened the last time the elves isolated themselves from humans, they were enslaved.  So rather than try to maintain relations with the humans, much as the Dwarves do, they chose to follow a policy that is guaranteed to breed hostility, militaristic isolation.  Big shock they ended up in a war and, bigger shock, they lost.  What did they learn from it?  Absolutely nothing.

Same with the City Elves, nobody is forcing them to live in the Alienage, after Garahel's defeat of the Archdemon or Loghain's Night Elves there was a brief period when humans thought of them as more than servants, more than just wordy animals, and they could have leapt on that period to push into other fields.  They could have joined the military, or become apprentices in various crafts because people were willing, if only briefly, to give them a chance.  They didn't, they said, "Hey look how great we are." and went back to business as usual.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Blaming the elves for not changing how the humans rule over them makes no sense. The impoverished and powerless elves aren't in a position to change the status quo.[/quote]

I can blame them for not trying.  The Elves have never capitalized on having the attention and goodwill of those in positions to make things better for them, they have no one to blame for that but themselves.  To draw a parallel to the Civil Rights Movement it didn't end with Rosa Parks, there was a lot of work to do and others had to get involved and follow her example or make their own.  If blacks at the time had responded the way the Elves do in DA Rosa Parks would have just been a woman with a bad attitude.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It seems to me that you're dismissing the fact that elves have proven humanity wrong about them throughout history, but insisting that elves continue proving themselves despite the fact that centuries have proven that this has accomplished nothing. The city elves still lived in the Alienages after Garahel defeated the Archdemon, they didn't isolate themselves in another nation. I honestly don't see any merit to your arguments when the history if Thedas has disproven them time and again.[/quote]

Yes the City Elves still lived in Alienages and did nothing to build on the goodwill and progress Garahel bought them.  Garahel (and others) prove that Elves can contribute, it then falls on the Elves, City or Dalish, to demonstrate that they want to.

Humans: Thank you for helping free us from the slavery of Tevinter, please take this land as our humble thanks.
Elves: Great now ****** off.

Humans: Wow an elf bested the Archdemon in single combat you guys are really something.
Elves: Thanks, now where do you want this shirt.

Every time after the Elves have gained a bit of momentum it stops dead because they aren't willing to push forward on it.  They let the accomplishments rest and see just how far they can take them with no effort on their part.[/quote]

The City Elves were impoverished and powerless, and the Dalish refuse to convert to the Chantry. A couple of ridiculous dialogue examples from you doesn't change the reality of the situation when history has shown that elves will rise to the challenge (like the Night Elves), but that the status quo remains.[/quote]

Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change.  Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population.  Again if Rosa Parks had been alone, if nobody had stood behind her, nothing would have changed, and it would be ridiculous to complain about that fact.  You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 15 juillet 2012 - 05:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but why? Why did the conflict take the total war aspect that it did? And why did all the human nations rally to the Orlesian's defense? You can try to lay the whole thing at the Orlesians feet, but that's shallow, one-sided, simplistic and not reflective of reality.

Well, gee. One of them is the headquarters for everyone's religion and the other is a different race that's also the only one that doesn't practice said religion. Imagine Muslim Wookies living next door to medieval Rome and tell me which side people would take. As for total war, I don't think Orlais has ever not practiced total war, they just succeeded this time.

Elves relying on humans for their survival... no way that can go wrong!

The other option is... well, if humans spread the disease, what is the cure?

Except it's not the same, not exactly, and varies in the fine details. If anyone had a reason to maintain the elves were attacked unprovoked by humans it's the ones suffering under their thumb, and they don't.

Well, it might help if they weren't living as forced beneficiaries of the humans who could be purged based on any hint of rebellion in the past...

Same with the City Elves, nobody is forcing them to live in the Alienage, after Garahel's defeat of the Archdemon or Loghain's Night Elves there was a brief period when humans thought of them as more than servants, more than joust wordy animals, and they could have leapt on that period to push into other fields. They could have joined the military, or become apprentices in various crafts because people were willing, if only briefly, to give them a chance. They didn't, they said, "Hey look how great we are." and went back to business as usual.

And what exactly do you base this on?

Because singular events like Garahel or the Night Elves don't affect lasting change. Without the elves rising to back up the examples of people like that they are flukes, one in a million occurences not indicative of the abilities or attitudes of the population. Again if Rosa Parks had been alone, if nobody had stood behind her, nothing would have changed, and it would be ridiculous to complain about that fact. You can't expect occasional exemplars of a population like Garahel, the Night Elves, or an Elven Warden to make a difference the general population must act on these examples.

The onus is on the humans to not be racist idiots, but if that's impossible and they won't allow alternatives to be shown...

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 05:22 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think dwarves kill them, just humans. But if there are no areas without neighbors, then I believe it's the responsibility of at least some humans to move to the side some.

The Dwarves did at one point, back when the Empire was at its peak and they were trading with the Imperium -- prior to the Darkspawn.

The Dwarves of Cad'Halash -- the precursor to Cadash Thaig -- sheltered the Elves of Arlathan, but Kal-Sharok feared that this would ruin their relationship with the Imperium and bring the wrath of the Imperium down on them, so they killed the Elves and Dwarves both to cover it up.

The history itself wasn't even known until the Warden and company ventured there in Witch Hunt, centuries beyond counting after the incident itself.

It's the only time it's ever happened, and it's doubtful it'd ever happen again, given that the Dwarves and Elves don't bear any animosity towards one another these days.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think dwarves kill them, just humans. But if there are no areas without neighbors, then I believe it's the responsibility of at least some humans to move to the side some.

The Dwarves did at one point, back when the Empire was at its peak and they were trading with the Imperium -- prior to the Darkspawn.

The Dwarves of Cad'Halash -- the precursor to Cadash Thaig -- sheltered the Elves of Arlathan, but Kal-Sharok feared that this would ruin their relationship with the Imperium and bring the wrath of the Imperium down on them, so they killed the Elves and Dwarves both to cover it up.

The history itself wasn't even known until the Warden and company ventured there in Witch Hunt, centuries beyond counting after the incident itself.

It's the only time it's ever happened, and it's doubtful it'd ever happen again, given that the Dwarves and Elves don't bear any animosity towards one another these days.

Sorry, I meant that dwarves don't Quicken them to death.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, gee. One of them is the headquarters for everyone's religion and the other is a different race that's also the only one that doesn't practice said religion. Imagine Muslim Wookies living next door to medieval Rome and tell me which side people would take. As for total war, I don't think Orlais has ever not practiced total war, they just succeeded this time.

Depends on when in Medieval history this attack happened  and what was the nature and orgin of the conflict between Rome and these wookies.  If the potentates of Rome and these wookies had been snarling back and forth at each other for centuries over matters the rest of Europe was barely aware of, and if, during their attack on Rome, the wookies took great pains to insure that the Vatican and the Holy See remained unviolated... I think you might be surprised at just how underwhelming the response of the rest of Medieval Christendom would have been to Rome's wookie plight.

Xilizhra wrote...

The other option is... well, if humans spread the disease, what is the cure?

Not to rely on humans obviously.