394 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sorry, I meant that dwarves don't Quicken them to death.

Ah.

Yes, that seems to be true. Judging by what historical evidence we have, I'd say the Dwarves and Elves did know about one another -- since the term Durgen'len is a carryover from Arlathan/Dales. Don't know if they ever did any trading prior to the Imperium's emergence, though.

And since the Elves were content to live with the Dwarves after the fall of Arlathan rather then just running and hiding, it seems that the Dwarves themselves don't cause the Elves to quicken and die.

So living with Dwarves is definitely a viable option to regain their immortality whilst strengthening relations with a non-Elven race.

[Xilizhra]

Depends on when in Medieval history this attack happened and what was the nature and orgin of the conflict between Rome and these wookies. If the potentates of Rome and these wookies had been snarling back and forth at each other for centuries over matters the rest of Europe was barely aware of, and if, during their attack on Rome, the wookies took great pains to insure that the Vatican and the Holy See remained unviolated... I think you might be surprised at just how underwhelming the response of the rest of Medieval Christendom would have been to Rome's wookie plight.

So you'd be reliant on the elves being extremely nice to the people killing them by their presence and repeatedly trying to, often violently, convert them? Do humans have any damned responsibility at all in your universe?

Not to rely on humans obviously.

Humans can screw up elven society again just by getting close. Of course, if kossith don't spread the Quickening, if the qunari segregated humans and elves sufficiently, it might work out... but that doesn't seem like a good first resort. Maybe paying dwarves to establish a buffer zone between their territories?

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd be reliant on the elves being extremely nice to the people
killing them by their presence and repeatedly trying to, often
violently, convert them?

T'was my understanding that, for the first half of the war, it was the elves that were doing the majority of the killing.

Xilizhra wrote...

Do humans have any damned responsibility at all in your universe?

Not in the least.  The humans of Thedas, every single last one, are helpless and innocent flowers forced against their will to take up arms to defend themselves from the blood-thirsty, demon-posessed elves and their agenda of racial extermination.

Xilizhra wrote...

Humans can screw up elven society again just by getting close. Of course, if kossith don't spread the Quickening, if the qunari segregated humans and elves sufficiently, it might work out... but that doesn't seem like a good first resort. Maybe paying dwarves to establish a buffer zone between their territories?

Oceans and mountains also make fine buffer zones.  Plus you don't have to pay them.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[Xilizhra]

T'was my understanding that, for the first half of the war, it was the elves that were doing the majority of the killing.

For the vast majority of their prior history, it had been the humans doing the killing and enslaving.

Not in the least. The humans of Thedas, every single last one, are helpless and innocent flowers forced against their will to take up arms to defend themselves from the blood-thirsty, demon-posessed elves and their agenda of racial extermination.

I'm glad we got that clarified.

Oceans and mountains also make fine buffer zones. Plus you don't have to pay them.

Not fine enough to keep the humans away when they came to Thedas in the first place.

[Blacklash93]

As others have said, an elven rebellion would quickly end in failure. The only real options would be seperation and form a new nation for elves, which sounds incredibly difficult in the span of the Dragon Age due to little unity among elves and the lack of land to claim in Thedas, or pushing for peaceful reform which would also be more difficult or at least require a very different approach from most examples in real-world history.

The point is moot though because what they should really have done to begin with was turn the Dales into a collection of gambling establishments. Having your homelands being pillaged, conquered, or sunk into the ground and being subjected to racist treatment and policies or your religious lore being largely forgotten doesn't mean jack when you're rich. And having such a nation being next to Orlais? Goldmine.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If I recall, you were the one who mentioned good clothes and a good job as the solution.

Then, to misquote Sten, "you must have either an enviable memory or pitiable comprehension skills."

I was imprecise, true. You said the way to combat racism is for the elves to be "clean, hard-working, useful, and honest."

General User wrote...
Third, and most important, no one can control what others do or what others think.  You can only control what you do and what you think.  Elves can't stop anyone from not liking them just because their elves.  What they can control is their own behavior.  The negative stereotype of the elves is that they are a bunch of dirty, lazy, useless, thieves.  The way to combat that stereotype is for the elves to be clean, hard-working, useful, and honest.  Some humans will see that the stereotype was wrong, and start treating elves "better."  In which case, great!  And some humans will cling to the stereotype despite the evidence that it is wrong. In which case, fudge 'em and move on.

I don't think this is the solution to racism against elves.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
For the vast majority of their prior history, it had been the humans doing the killing and enslaving.

The Magisters enslaved elves and humans alike and it was a human that brought down the Southern Imperium and freed the elves.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
For the vast majority of their prior history, it had been the humans doing the killing and enslaving.

The Magisters enslaved elves and humans alike and it was a human that brought down the Southern Imperium and freed the elves.

Were any of the magisters elves? If not, it doesn't help that much. Also, the elven side was primarily represented by Shartan, another elf. Andraste may have done the elves a good turn, but then Orlais betrayed that, so...

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Were any of the magisters elves? If not, it doesn't help that much. Also, the elven side was primarily represented by Shartan, another elf. Andraste may have done the elves a good turn, but then Orlais betrayed that, so...

The elves first betrayed the teachings of the women that freed them.
Refusing to worship the Maker is one thing, almost destroying the seat of the Chantry is another completely different.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And since the Elves were content to live with the Dwarves after the fall of Arlathan rather then just running and hiding, it seems that the Dwarves themselves don't cause the Elves to quicken and die.

That's not quite a logical conclusion. There are other reasons the Elves who did could be 'content' to live with the Dwarves other than a lack of quicking: relative freedom, safety, a distinct lack of slavery or subjucation.

So living with Dwarves is definitely a viable option to regain their immortality whilst strengthening relations with a non-Elven race.

Maybe, maybe not. Besides whether Dwarves quicken or not (or were they simply equally isolationist, and not a common enough presence?), there's also the question of whether Elves were ever immortal in the first place.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

For the vast majority of their prior history, it had been the humans doing the killing and enslaving.

You must be refering to the Magisters.  Holding the rest of Thedas responsible for the crimes of the power they overthrew and that had enslaved them as well is taking the already ridiculous idea of racial blood-guilt to a whole new level of absurdity.

Xilizhra wrote...

Not fine enough to keep the humans away when they came to Thedas in the first place.

True enough.  So I guess humans and elves had best learn to live together, huh?

[Xilizhra]

The elves first betrayed the teachings of the women that freed them.
Refusing to worship the Maker is one thing, almost destroying the seat of the Chantry is another completely different.

Andraste did not create the Chantry. It was invented by Kordillius Drakon as a political symbol, and he did absolutely nothing for the elves as I recall. Andraste's teachings said nothing whatsoever about the Chantry, or any religious/political institution.

You must be refering to the Magisters. Holding the rest of Thedas responsible for the crimes of the power they overthrew and that had enslaved them as well is taking the already ridiculous idea of racial blood-guilt to a whole new level of absurdity.

What I'm saying is that elves have no real reason to trust politically powerful humans. Especially not expansionist ones who try to destroy their religion.

True enough. So I guess humans and elves had best learn to live together, huh?

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

True enough. So I guess humans and elves had best learn to live together, huh?

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

Elves dies for other reasons as well... including, quite possibly, old age.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True enough. So I guess humans and elves had best learn to live together, huh?

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

Elves dies for other reasons as well... including, quite possibly, old age.

They die of old age now, certainly. But if what I recall about Dalish elves living longer than city elves because they're away from the Quickening is true, that need not always be the case.

[Dave of Canada]

The "Quickening" might simply be a myth made up by the Dalish.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:13 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

What I'm saying is that elves have no real reason to trust politically powerful humans. Especially not expansionist ones who try to destroy their religion.

And I'm saying that, that the time of the War with the Dales, the humans had as much reason to mistrust the elves as the elves had to mistrust the humans.

Xilizhra wrote...

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

If that's what you're going for, then a combination of distance and geographical barriers would serve best.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The "Quickening" might simply be a myth made up by the Dalish.

I think someone tweeted about it being true.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Andraste did not create the Chantry. It was invented by Kordillius Drakon as a political symbol, and he did absolutely nothing for the elves as I recall. Andraste's teachings said nothing whatsoever about the Chantry, or any religious/political institution.

And that justifies the wholesome slaughter of an entire nation?

What I'm saying is that elves have no real reason to trust politically powerful humans. Especially not expansionist ones who try to destroy their religion.

They sent missionaries. If the Dales had allowed a Chantry to be opened like the dwarves; who are clearly a much more intelligent race; do and kept elves from trashing it, there would be less reasons to wage war.

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

Or elves are simply so incredibly racist that they invented this idea that they used to be biologically mortal as a way to justify their isolationist policies.

[Xilizhra]

And I'm saying that, that the time of the War with the Dales, the humans had as much reason to mistrust the elves as the elves had to mistrust the humans.

No, they didn't. The elves were isolationist and, so far as I can tell, nothing else.

If that's what you're going for, then a combination of distance and geographical barriers would serve best.

It didn't work the first time, when humans came to this continent. We need something more active.

And that justifies the wholesome slaughter of an entire nation?

That would require there to be a wholesale slaughter to begin with. Which... there was. On Orlais' side.

They sent missionaries. If the Dales had allowed a Chantry to be opened like the dwarves; who are clearly a much more intelligent race; do and kept elves from trashing it, there would be less reasons to wage war.

ELVES DIE FROM HUMAN PROXIMITY. This was not an option, and in any case, the Chantry has no inherent right to be there, especially as it preaches mage imprisonment. Even if it's not actually true, you can hardly blame the elves of the Dales for believing it, and I don't think the Dalish just made this up after the fall of the Dales.

Or elves are simply so incredibly racist that they invented this idea that they used to be biologically mortal as a way to justify their isolationist policies.

Maybe, but again, I believe I've heard otherwise.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, they didn't. The elves were isolationist and, so far as I can tell, nothing else.

Militantly isolationist.  That counts.

Xilizhra wrote...

It didn't work the first time, when humans came to this continent. We need something more active.

You can't mean the Dales?  A none-too-imposing region proximal to a major sea way and within virtual spitting distance of major political, economic and religious centres.  Not exactly isolated.

Modifié par General User, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:23 .

[Zkyire]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...

I actually think this would be a good storyline.

When and how are the city elves going to revolt against the way they are treated? Is it impossible due to the lack of means (not allowed to have weapons, low morale, many other obstacles) and their extremely strong enemy? Would the Dalish help? Who would be their other allies, assuming they found some?

The idea would be to reclaim at least some of the land that was stolen from them, start their own kingdom, and become first class citizens like everyone else. Would they still be Andrastian, or resort to their Dalish roots? As elves produce more mages I assume the Chantry would get involved as well in the war (we all know it would come to that).

All in all, I think if things were done right it would become just as big or even bigger as the mage/templar war.

P.S. I would also appreciate if someone told me if the Chantry law justifies city elf treatment. Is it related to the fact that the ancient elves didn't help them during the first Blight, and that's when it started?

The Humans and Elves of Dragon Age fought a war.

The Elves lost.

They should be "given" nothing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

True enough. So I guess humans and elves had best learn to live together, huh?

Elves die by living in proximity with humans, so some means of preventing humans from ever reaching elven territory must be found.

Elves dies for other reasons as well... including, quite possibly, old age.

They die of old age now, certainly. But if what I recall about Dalish elves living longer than city elves because they're away from the Quickening is true, that need not always be the case.

Besides conflating correleation with causation, there's also the issue of exageration.

Let's concede, for this point alone, that elves really do have a naturally longer life span when not in proximity of humans. Where does that conflate to ever being immortal? If Humans are analogous to a pathogen, if their mere presence 'kills' elves, pathogens simply shorten an already limited lifespan. The effect of lessening a life span does not prove what the original life span ever was.

Second, what is the source of the quickening? Is it humans, or is it culture? If a Human is raised by the elves, to think like the elves, and practices the rites of the elves, would he/she shorten the lifespan of an elf?

If the answer is yes, that by mere virtue of being genetically human the quickening will result, then nothing short of the genocide of the human race, and any other races which would cause the effect will allow the elves a realistic chance at regaining and keeping immortality. Any isolationistic policy is simply a delay, because as humans colonize, settle, grow, and expand across the lands they will bump into the elves as the empty spaces on the map vanish. Elves will encounter humans, or encounter elves who have encountered humans, and the imortality is not eternal and thus not immortal. If Elvish Immortality is something to be prioritized, the Elves will need an expansionist, genocidal outlook to keep out the impurities.

If the answer is no, you'd still need much the same: to wipe out the ideas of human culture, rather than the idea-holders. Cultural genocide on a massive scale, regardless of race, would be necessary to remove the corruption over the long term. Isolationism is self-defeating except in the preparation for the expansionist phase, because ultimately the elves would have to rid not only themselves of Human culture, but their peripherary and their peripherary's peripherary and so on.


If Humans, or Human culture, really is the doom of Elvish immortality, the only enduring way to preserve that immortality is the erradication of the source of the corruption. Isolationism will simply delay the inevitable.




Edit: A point I forgot about, also on the topic of Correlation and Causation.

Do Dalish elves live longer than city elves because of the culture/regained fragments of immortality, or because the Dalish live healthier lives and not in oppressive squalor?

This is important because living unhealthily in a city, especially if you're the maltreated and impoverished underclass without access to the benefits of civilization, can frequently carry notable causes for death that would be avoided if you simply live healthily.

Elvish longivity, far from being a form of immortality, could simply have been a result of cultural inclinations towards healthy living and better medicine. Besides the magical aspects from an elven civilization, blood magic or benign regardless, superior lifestyles and access to resources could explain any difference, if there is any. Dalish Elves get plenty of exercise, regularly get fresh food rather than spoiled/cheap substitutes, and have better access to many of the raw materials for ancient elvish medical care that city elves neither can afford or know what to do with.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Militantly isolationist. That counts.

So the fact that they didn't want any plaguebearers in their nation means that they had to die?

You can't mean the Dales? A none-too-imposing region proximal to a major sea way and within virtual spitting distance of major political, economic and religious centres. Not exactly isolated.

I meant Arlathan, before humans were even in Thedas.

If Humans, or Human culture, really is the doom of Elvish immortality,
the only enduring way to preserve that immortality is the erradication
of the source of the corruption. Isolationism will simply delay the
inevitable.

And if that's the case, then the choice comes down to a lot of people dying now, or everyone dying eventually. One of those will have less death.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
That would require there to be a wholesale slaughter to begin with. Which... there was. On Orlais' side.

Orlais was losing the war. The tide turned only when the Divine called for an Exalted March due to the elves being on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux herself and other nations joined.
Considering the elves view humans as a plague, I fear they butchered all those who lived in the territory they conquered.

ELVES DIE FROM HUMAN PROXIMITY. This was not an option, and in any case, the Chantry has no inherent right to be there, especially as it preaches mage imprisonment. Even if it's not actually true, you can hardly blame the elves of the Dales for believing it, and I don't think the Dalish just made this up after the fall of the Dales.

Do you believe your point comes across more strongly if you write it LIKE THIS?!

Anyway, the Chantry in Orzammar was kept by a converted dwarf. I find it very hard to believe that no elf would have converted to the teachings of the women who freed them.
No one has any inherent right to anything. Allowing the founding of a Chantry as well as trade would have cultivated friendly relations with their neighbours which would have diminished the chances of war.
The Dales lasted for 300 years, Orlais did not simply invade as soon as possible.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 juillet 2012 - 06:29 .

[Xilizhra]

Orlais was losing the war. The tide turned only when the Divine called for an Exalted March due to the elves being on the doorstep of Val-Royeaux herself and other nations joined.
Considering the elves view humans as a plague, I fear they butchered all those who lived in the territory they conquered.

You fear. Your proof is nil.

Anyway, the Chantry in Orzammar was kept by a converted dwarf. I find it very hard to believe that no elve would have converted to the teachings of the women who freed them if they were so worried about this "Quickening".

Wait, what? I think part of your grammar went missing here, because I don't quite know what you're saying.

No one has any inherent right to anything. Allowing the founding of a Chantry as well as trade would have cultivated friendly relations with their neighbours which would have diminished the chances of war.
The Dales lasted for 300 years, Orlais did not simply invade as soon as possible.

It would have led to everyone dying in any case if they let humans in freely. A calculated risk. Orlais' lust for conquest screwed this up, but everyone makes mistakes.