414 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

slimgrin wrote...

I'll be watching it again. I feel I need to give it another chance. But my impression of trilogies right now is that number three is the kiss of death.

Also am I the only one who thought the fight scenes were lackluster?

The fight choreography in all three were never anything special. It was the big stunts that distracted from the mediocre fighting. The truck flip in TDK, Batman swooping down on mobsters at the dock in Begins, or the Plane hijaking in Rises, all distracted from the "meh" fight scenes.

[Eradyn]

I loved TDKR and was very satisfied with how Nolan wrapped things up. I'll be disappointed if he really does refrain from heading any future Batman movies; I feel he really turned things around after the horror of the first three. On the other hand, I can kind of see why he'd refrain, especially in light of WB's desire for a Justice League shoe-in movie. He gave us a trilogy that, imo, transcends the label "comic book movie" and that I'm not sure would fit in well in the 'verses of other DC heroes. It has a different vibe to it. And really, handing the reigns to someone else...I have a hard time seeing how any other director/writer can out-Nolan Nolan and give us something as huge, sweeping, and epic as what we have now; can they do justice to Nolan's legacy? I'm not sure I'd feel unrestrained giddiness at the thought of another Batman movie not spearheaded by Nolan with Bale in the cowl.

[Mr.House]

I didn't find Bane undervalued at all with the twist. Sure Talia was the mastermind, but that does not mean bane did everything with her approval or help. In fact keeping Bane as Ra's child would have upset me alot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Godak wrote...
 In order to save Bruce, Alfred feels he must abandon the Batman.

Something I do not understand at all, esp since Alfred fears for his life.
The way I see it, it's just poorly attempted drama for the sake of it.

If the ending were going to be different, I could agree with that. At the same time, I feel like the trilogy always had to end with Bruce's Batman dying (whether or not that meant Bruce's death). It would have been extraordinarily disappointing if, by some magical plot device, Bruce was able to heal his body and continue being the Batman indefinitely.

Goes back to how we understand Batman and Bruce. For me, Bruce is the mask and Batman is the real person. Batman can't stop being batman. But I am not criticizing Nolan's series in that regard, it was consistent.

The existence of the character of Batman who can maintain a secret identity in the largest city on the planet requires the suspension of disbelief. Nolan handled it better than most (There's no "ALFRED DID IT!" for one thing).

Perhaps you misunderstood me. That's precisely what I am saying. Believing that Batman cannot be exposed requires our suspension of disbelief. But when you can make a random dude expose him as kid easily well it's no longer consistent and we can no longer pretend to believe that no one can find out.

This is just his origin story (if that). We see some of his trials and tribulations, and it is heavily (HEAVILY) implied that he will become the new Batman. However, donning the cowl comes with its own trials. Batman was not a complete character in Batman Begins. Blake won't be complete until his he grows during his tenure as the caped crusader.

I disagree, I think Batman was a complete character by Begins more or less and TDK and TDKR did not add much to his character, views and motivations. For Blake, well other than he is an orphan and just a nice guy, there is not that much to his origin.

Sadism is not necessarily dramatic. And Bane seems to keep a far more level-headed approach than Talia.

Bane said he is doing all this because despair can't exist without hope. He just wants false hope before destroying Gotham. I'd say that pretty sadistic and not level headed, compared to Ras.

Keep in mind that Ozymandias speechified Nite Owl and Rorschach. They were unable to physically stop him - and, even if they could, he had already implemented his plan of action. He had won, so he went head first to the dramatic talking points. Heck, I think Ozymandias would have been proud of Bane.

How? Bane had a 5 month time bomb that he had no reason to delay. His goal is to destory Gotham, why wait 5 months and pull off a sham pointless revolution?

Is it anything that they couldn't have given to Bane to make him more complex? Is it not Bane's entire purpose to be a villain who is capable of standing toe-to-toe with Batman on both a physical and intellectual level? Making Talia the mastermind undermines Bane's intellectual abilities, making him a really strong mook.

Talia does not have to be the mastermind. She can be the co-conspirator or simply the one who will detonate the bomb should Bane's plan fail.

As for what she would add, she would show an emotional side of Bane. Bane in the comics had a teddy bear best friend. Baby Talia could have been that teddy bear.
Furthermore, if Bane was rejected by Ras to be his heir because of Talia and his beliefs which led to Ras seeking Bruce as a potential heir, it would have added more to the rivalry between the two.

I would argue that Blake and Selina need to remain in order to bring Bruce back.
[snip]

Good point.
Still, that's way too many characters to do right. I feel Blake is more necessary than Selina, who could have been removed. I understand that she brings a new love interest to Bruce, but I would have preferred the ending to be less happy and more ambiguous. I would have preferred if we don't know whether Bruce can live without Batman or not. But that said, I am a fan of the bittersweet.

But I feel like you want Nolan to be telling a different story. For the story he did tell, both Blake and Kyle were of the utmost importance. In a different tale, yes, they might very well be useless wall-flowers who are ancillary to the main story.

To a certain extent yes, I do. But even for the story he wanted to tell, it was not as well done as it could have been and I think we agree. We seem to agree that there is at least one character too many. You think it's Talia, I think it's Selina (that's cause I think Talia is more interesting and more crucial to the plot / story). Also Blake because I fond him poorly executed albeit not pointless.

I always saw Batman as defined by his antagonistss and not his allies (needless to say, I hate Robin barring Jason Todd and the rest).

Oh well, maybe in a decade or so a re-invention of Batman can be done.
Still, all in all, I like the movie (but I think it's my least favorite of the trilogy) and I loved the serie and found it much better than the old movies (except Phantasm).

[Melra]

Mr.House wrote...

I didn't find Bane undervalued at all with the twist. Sure Talia was the mastermind, but that does not mean bane did everything with her approval or help. In fact keeping Bane as Ra's child would have upset me alot.

They turned Bane into a monster with a heart and made Talia the cold b*tch leader, part which the actress didn't really sell too well. You can't do twists like that, on the last few minutes and expect it to carry over well. If they had started paving way for it more obviously like with Dent, it would've been far better.

But it's quite underwhelming to beat your opponent only to have it revealed to you that he wasn't as great as you thought him to be. 

Edit: Bane+Talia, the Nolanverse friendzone relationship.

Modifié par Melrache, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

DuckSoup wrote...

Bane was completely and utterly undervalued with that twist. The one thing that gave Bane that edge - this kind of Godlike, super-human, supreme power - was just... shat on. 

I do not think he was undervalued because of that. I think he was undervalued for having meh motivations. Wanting to destroy Gotham is a good motivation. Wanting to incite a revolution is also a good motivation. Wanting to do both with no apparent reason other than sadism is very meh and seems to run contrary to the character he was made out to be (logical and can even have enough compassion to sacirifce his life for a child).

But I do agree that Talia was poorly done.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:51 .

[Godak]

DuckSoup wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

After months of making out like this would finally be Batman's end? Yeah, I'd say it's disappointing to end it on a happy note. 

It is Batman's end in the Nolanverse. Did you even pay attention to the ending? Bruce faked his death, Batman is beleived to have died protecting Gotham, him becoming a true hero in the eyes of the people. it is the end, not everyone always like grimdark endings just for the sake of grimdark endings.

Yeah... I get it. I'm not dumb. But I wanted him to die. I wanted it to be tragic and sad and actually have a deeper meaning. 

I think it did have a deeper meaning. It makes you question what is normally valued in a hero. If someone is self-sacrificing to a fault - even if there is a better way - is that heroic?

When Batman fought Bane as Batman fighting badguy, Batman lost. He was driven by duty and, later, anger. This was a broken man who wanted to validate his life-style.

He beats Bane only after he's come to terms with the inevitability of him remaining Gotham's protector, and his willingness to have a life outside of the mask. So, really, Batman does die. Bruce Wayne, however, lives on. And John Blake is going to put on some green undies. Nananananana, nananananana...

I will, however, agree that it was awfully disappointing that Bane was made into Talia's yes-man. The movie said they were lovers, but we really don't see that. It said that Talia wanted revenge, but we really don't see that. It just comes across as two crazy terrorist people.

Well, I guess that could be the intent, now that I think about it...That's extrapolating quite a bit, though.

[Il Divo]

Uhh, were they lovers?

I recall Talia's last line to Bane being "Good-bye my friend" before walking away. Not that it prevents anything, but it would seem an odd good-bye, while also considering their age disparity.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DuckSoup wrote...

But to me having that French chick be the brain behind it all was just... meh for him. I didn't care about it and it added absolutely nothing to it. And they couldn't even kill off Bane in a good way. He was just there one minute and gone the next. 

I do not think she was the brains necessarily. The way see it, Talia set the goal and it was Bane who came up with the plan to attain it.
But yes his death is horrible.

All in all I am disapointed with Bane because he couldd have been so much more awesome than he already is. He could have beaten the Joker easily imo.

[C9316]

Melrache wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I didn't find Bane undervalued at all with the twist. Sure Talia was the mastermind, but that does not mean bane did everything with her approval or help. In fact keeping Bane as Ra's child would have upset me alot.

They turned Bane into a monster with a heart and made Talia the cold b*tch leader, part which the actress didn't really sell too well. You can't do twists like that, on the last few minutes and expect it to carry over well. If they had started paving way for it more obviously like with Dent, it would've been far better.

But it's quite underwhelming to beat your opponent only to have it revealed to you that he wasn't as great as you thought him to be. 

Edit: Bane+Talia, the Nolanverse friendzone relationship.

Am I the only one seeing the hilarity of this considering how Mass Effect 3 turned out? =P

[android654]

Melrache wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I didn't find Bane undervalued at all with the twist. Sure Talia was the mastermind, but that does not mean bane did everything with her approval or help. In fact keeping Bane as Ra's child would have upset me alot.

They turned Bane into a monster with a heart and made Talia the cold b*tch leader, part which the actress didn't really sell too well. You can't do twists like that, on the last few minutes and expect it to carry over well. If they had started paving way for it more obviously like with Dent, it would've been far better.

But it's quite underwhelming to beat your opponent only to have it revealed to you that he wasn't as great as you thought him to be. 

Edit: Bane+Talia, the Nolanverse friendzone relationship.

If Nolan was smart, Talia would've been introduced in The Dark Knight under her secret identity. She would've fit well with minimal introduction in that one, allowing for good growth in this film. But he chose to make the mistake that every 3rd comic book movie does, and that's the mistake of forced inclusion. 4 new characters with failry important roles to the story in one film? Yeah, not everyone is going to get fair treatment and writing. That was his mistake. Having Selina in Begins, and Talia in The Dark Knight, or the other way around would've allowed for a better paced development.

[Melra]

C9316 wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I didn't find Bane undervalued at all with the twist. Sure Talia was the mastermind, but that does not mean bane did everything with her approval or help. In fact keeping Bane as Ra's child would have upset me alot.

They turned Bane into a monster with a heart and made Talia the cold b*tch leader, part which the actress didn't really sell too well. You can't do twists like that, on the last few minutes and expect it to carry over well. If they had started paving way for it more obviously like with Dent, it would've been far better.

But it's quite underwhelming to beat your opponent only to have it revealed to you that he wasn't as great as you thought him to be. 

Edit: Bane+Talia, the Nolanverse friendzone relationship.

Am I the only one seeing the hilarity of this considering how Mass Effect 3 turned out? =P

This time the Destroy ending wasn't quite as good though.

[Il Divo]

Eradyn wrote...

I loved TDKR and was very satisfied with how Nolan wrapped things up. I'll be disappointed if he really does refrain from heading any future Batman movies; I feel he really turned things around after the horror of the first three. On the other hand, I can kind of see why he'd refrain, especially in light of WB's desire for a Justice League shoe-in movie. He gave us a trilogy that, imo, transcends the label "comic book movie" and that I'm not sure would fit in well in the 'verses of other DC heroes. It has a different vibe to it. And really, handing the reigns to someone else...I have a hard time seeing how any other director/writer can out-Nolan Nolan and give us something as huge, sweeping, and epic as what we have now; can they do justice to Nolan's legacy? I'm not sure I'd feel unrestrained giddiness at the thought of another Batman movie not spearheaded by Nolan with Bale in the cowl.

This captures my feelings perfectly.

[android654]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DuckSoup wrote...

But to me having that French chick be the brain behind it all was just... meh for him. I didn't care about it and it added absolutely nothing to it. And they couldn't even kill off Bane in a good way. He was just there one minute and gone the next. 

I do not think she was the brains necessarily. The way see it, Talia set the goal and it was Bane who came up with the plan to attain it.
But yes his death is horrible.

All in all I am disapointed with Bane because he couldd have been so much more awesome than he already is. He could have beaten the Joker easily imo.

I would think so, considering he was Batman's superior in this film.

[Melra]

DuckSoup wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Uhh, were they lovers?

I recall Talia's last line to Bane being "Good-bye my friend" before walking away. Not that it prevents anything, but it would seem an odd good-bye, while also considering their age disparity.

Maybe she just loved to dangle that bait? I certainly got the impression from how he looked at her that he was in  love with her at least. 

Are you really using age as an excuse, though? Lol. This is Gotham City where they have people like Bane walking around. I don't think they care too much about age differences 

I got the feeling he was her personal lil beast. It did bother me a bit having such a strong and brilliant character fall to thralls of an average looking ladeh.

[Eradyn]

People need to remember that there are more than two types of love in the world; it isn't restricted to familial or romantic. I get the feeling that what Bane and Talia shared was more complicated than that and certainly wasn't "puppy love" or anything of the sort. She was a light shining in the darkness of their perpetual hell (the prison). He spent years protecting her, looking after her. She escaped from that hell, an escape that involved great risk to both...and then returned with her father to set them free.  She didn't have to do that. That can have quite a powerful affect on a person, potentially inspiring deep and abiding loyalty, and yes, love...and certainly not necessarily the romantic kind.

Modifié par Eradyn, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:12 .

[android654]

Eradyn wrote...

People need to remember that there are more than two types of love in the world; it isn't restricted to familial or romantic. I get the feeling that what Bane and Talia shared was more complicated than that and certainly wasn't "puppy love" or anything of the sort. She was a light shining in the darkness of their perpetual hell (the prison). He spent years protecting her, looking after her. She escaped from that hell, an escape that involved great risk to both...and then returned with her father to set them free.  She didn't have to do that. That can have quite a powerful affect on a person, potentially inspiring deep and abiding loyalty, and yes, love...and certainly not necessarily the romantic kind.

From the books, Talia is often depicted as a seductress. But is manipulative and calculating. Bane is much like Bruce's evil twin. A ruined childhood that has scarred him emotionally and in many ways stunted his development as an adult. Bane like Bruce is little more than a scared child trying to make sense of a tragedy that they carried with them to adulthood. Any sign of a maternal/paternal/fraternal bond would have a huge affect on either man. Bruce clung so tightly to Rachel in the last two movies, since she was the closest thing to sibling, and thus the closest tie to his late parents. Talia provided Bane with a sibling that required his protection and gave him a sense of familial duty. So her attaching herself to Bane was nothing more than a well thought out and patient plan. A plan that was easy to come up with once you figure out the type of man you're dealing with.