435 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, its introduced ABRUPTLY into the plot to solve a problem, which is by definition DEM.

You are ignorant about this.

It's introduced after lengthy exposition into what the Protheans on Ilos were doing.
It is justified by this and therefore not contrived and not a DEM. Give it up.

Then the starchilds is not a DEM. Because it also is explained by a lenghty exposition.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Yes, it is unexpaected. The chances of her getting the info and being on the citadel when we need is extremly low. That why it's a deux ex.

2.detory was achoice stated formthe start of the game as well as control. Whe the star child presents them, he gives the flaws of each. Destroy causes a genocide and control has the reapers impose a dictorship with Shepard in control with Shepard dieing to happen.
He added more problems to the choices you had before.

Unexpected =/= deus ex machina. 

Control was never a valid option at the beginning of the game. One would rationally assume that because Control is advocated by one of the main antagonists who fails to explain his position, it is a flawed premise.

Control becaomea a valid option during the sactuary mission and based on the fact that you didn't know how the crucible can destroy the reapers, you can say the same for destroy.

[txgoldrush]

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, its introduced ABRUPTLY into the plot to solve a problem, which is by definition DEM.

You are ignorant about this.

It's introduced after lengthy exposition into what the Protheans on Ilos were doing.
It is justified by this and therefore not contrived and not a DEM. Give it up.

A forced lengthy exposition after he ABRUPTLY comes in and stops you during your chase of Soverign and gives you a problem solver.

He gives you a problem solver not hinted at in any point of the game in an abrupt manner, that is a DEM.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

You clearly don't understand what a deusex is. That's not it.

Deus Ex Machina: a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

The real problem to stop is the reapers form coming. That is what the data file stops. It not something that just stops a villian suddenly.It something that solves a difficut problem for the character.

There is no single object in this game that defeats Sovereign or stops Saren or prevents the Reapers from invading. Now you're just being stupid.

[xsdob]

Vigil is a Deus Ex, but one that's done very well and isn't immersion breaking.

The catalyst was not done well, that's the biggest and most important difference.

[txgoldrush]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, its introduced ABRUPTLY into the plot to solve a problem, which is by definition DEM.

You are ignorant about this.

It's introduced after lengthy exposition into what the Protheans on Ilos were doing.
It is justified by this and therefore not contrived and not a DEM. Give it up.

Then the starchilds is not a DEM. Because it also is explained by a lenghty exposition.

Love the hypocrisy.

Who is more hypocritical...ME3 haters or the US Government?

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

He does solve a problem (which is rendering Soverign attackable byu the fifth fleet) and thats enough for him to qualify. Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the MAIN problem in the story just a significant hurdle of any kind, like even the impeding death of the hero.

Vigil solves the issue of why Sovereign needs to attack the Citadel this way if the Reapers created it in the first place.
This is a dangling plot thread that is neatly resolved by the introduction of Vigil. This therefore justifies Vigil's virus, because Ilos was full of researchers trying to figure out how to mess with the Reapers in various ways.

It is not a DEM, it is a culmination of elements that enables the last act to begin.
Again, stop trying to justify ME3's failures by bashing it's betters.

 

And? That's an element that makes the last act possible. LIKE I SAID. It does not defeat Sovereign. It does not resolve the plot. It is not out of the blue, again, Ilos was a research facility dedicated to preserving Prothean knowledge and resisting the Reapers.

The problem was not about defeating Sovergin, it's noted that many fleets can beat him. The problem is the reaper invasion which if start would destroy everything. That data disc saved everyone.

[Applepie_Svk]

txgoldrush wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

It´s silly that you are supporting ME3 nonsense (if it´s not Indoctrination) and spoiling previous two games because of 3rd part was art and previous was none ... Well, Drew Karpyshyn must be proud on his effort when he meet guys like you...

Drew Karpyshyn is an overrated writer who sucks at character development, and weakens hsis stories through a stupid black and white system (see Jade Empire).

And Jade Empire has its deus ex machina.

You are nice hypicryte...

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Control becaomea a valid option during the sactuary mission and based on the fact that you didn't know how the crucible can destroy the reapers, you can say the same for destroy.

And hey, Sanctuary is the 2nd-to-last mission in the game, not even remotely near the beginning, which was my point. Congratulations on going back on what you said, while simultaneously furthering my point.

Remind me which antagonist condones Destroy, because Hackett and Anderson aren't antagonists.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You clearly don't understand what a deusex is. That's not it.

Deus Ex Machina: a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

The real problem to stop is the reapers form coming. That is what the data file stops. It not something that just stops a villian suddenly.It something that solves a difficut problem for the character.

There is no single object in this game that defeats Sovereign or stops Saren or prevents the Reapers from invading. Now you're just being stupid.

The data file clears the way to Soverign being defeated...thats still DEM.

[What a Succulent Ass]

txgoldrush wrote...

Because he gives you a win button.

Did we play the same game, or did I just fever dream the entirety of ME's third act?

And I hope you see how completely irrelevant (and fallacious) the foundation of this argument is. A poorly-written story does not become well-written simply because it is juxtaposed with other poorly-written stories, nor does its sloppiness become justified.

That being said, Vigil is not a DEM. And how the LP can be in any way construed as one is beyond my comprehension. Stupid? Exceptionally. Wack? Exceedingly. Deus ex machina? No. And respectfully, the way you're attempting to apply the word makes me suspect that you don't know what it means at all, that you are sprinkling it around generously as a tacit defence of ME3's terrible narrative mistakes. As I said--this may blow your mind--but:

a = 0, b = BioWare
Sh*t + Sh*t =/= ∫(gold)d(decent writing)

THIS IS BLOODY SCIENCE.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

xsdob wrote...

Vigil is a Deus Ex, but one that's done very well and isn't immersion breaking.

The catalyst was not done well, that's the biggest and most important difference.

pre- ec yes it's bad.

Post-ec. It's the same type of expostion. It's no diffent then VIgal except it doesn't solve any thing.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You clearly don't understand what a deusex is. That's not it.

Deus Ex Machina: a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

The real problem to stop is the reapers form coming. That is what the data file stops. It not something that just stops a villian suddenly.It something that solves a difficut problem for the character.

There is no single object in this game that defeats Sovereign or stops Saren or prevents the Reapers from invading. Now you're just being stupid.

The data file clears the way to Soverign being defeated...thats still DEM.

The file itself resolves literally nothing. A deus ex machina device has to be the object/person/whatever that resolves the conflict.

[Ticonderoga117]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Don't remember her saying that. When you go talk to her on the Normandy for the first time she mentions her fear of the Crucible backfiring and killing everyone.

You're most likely correct. Miss-remembered. She figures it was to destroy the Reapers since Mars.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However, its introduced ABRUPTLY into the plot to solve a problem, which is by definition DEM.

You are ignorant about this.

It's introduced after lengthy exposition into what the Protheans on Ilos were doing.
It is justified by this and therefore not contrived and not a DEM. Give it up.

Then the starchilds is not a DEM. Because it also is explained by a lenghty exposition.

It explains itself in short exposition. Badly.
It does little to explain or justify the functions of the Crucible, why it's presence is required or the fact that IT'S AN ANTAGONIST THROWN IN THE LAST 5 MINUTES.

[xsdob]

Vigil tells you exposition about the protheans and reapers, than gives you the means to summon the fifth fleet by reactivating only the arcturus relay, which leads to the major choice of the game with the council.

The catalyst gives a long exposition about the reapers and the cycle before presenting you with the means to make the final choice in the game.

Both are characters designed to give exposition and than lead to the protaginist making a major choice in the game.

Both are essentially the same thing, but one was a hell of a lot more excusable and well executed than the other, and that would be vigil.

Modifié par xsdob, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:37 .

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...
The problem was not about defeating Sovergin, it's noted that many fleets can beat him. The problem is the reaper invasion which if start would destroy everything. That data disc saved everyone.

Vigil's files enabled the possibility, and were properly justified. Stop being obtuse.

[Ticonderoga117]

txgoldrush wrote...
The data file clears the way to Soverign being defeated...thats still DEM.

See "Plot Device", not "DEM".

[The Angry One]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
The data file clears the way to Soverign being defeated...thats still DEM.

See "Plot Device", not "DEM".

I think by now it's clear that neither goldrush or dreman can tell the difference.

[txgoldrush]

Random Jerkface wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Because he gives you a win button.

Did we play the same game, or did I just fever dream the entirety of ME's third act?

And I hope you see how completely irrelevant (and fallacious) the foundation of this argument is. A poorly-written story does not become well-written simply because it is juxtaposed with other poorly-written stories, nor does its sloppiness become justified.

That being said, Vigil is not a DEM. And how the LP can be in any way construed as one is beyond my comprehension. Stupid? Exceptionally. Wack? Exceedingly. Deus ex machina? No. And respectfully, the way you're attempting to apply the word makes me suspect that you don't know what it means at all, that you are sprinkling it around generously as a tacit defence of ME3's terrible narrative mistakes. As I said--this may blow your mind--but:

a = 0, b = BioWare
Sh*t + Sh*t =/= ∫(gold)d(decent writing)

THIS IS BLOODY SCIENCE.

and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Control becaomea a valid option during the sactuary mission and based on the fact that you didn't know how the crucible can destroy the reapers, you can say the same for destroy.

And hey, Sanctuary is the 2nd-to-last mission in the game, not even remotely near the beginning, which was my point. Congratulations on going back on what you said, while simultaneously furthering my point.

Remind me which antagonist condones Destroy, because Hackett and Anderson aren't antagonists.

You not getting. Saying that it was not full explined in the begining but fully explined in the middle of the plot doesn't make it a deus ex if it's and option at the end. Control is not a deus ex because it's not suddenly introduce with no hint or expliationto why it's an option. 
 Read up on what is a deus ex....
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Every defination you used was wrong.

[Conniving_Eagle]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

He does solve a problem (which is rendering Soverign attackable byu the fifth fleet) and thats enough for him to qualify. Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the MAIN problem in the story just a significant hurdle of any kind, like even the impeding death of the hero.

Vigil solves the issue of why Sovereign needs to attack the Citadel this way if the Reapers created it in the first place.
This is a dangling plot thread that is neatly resolved by the introduction of Vigil. This therefore justifies Vigil's virus, because Ilos was full of researchers trying to figure out how to mess with the Reapers in various ways.

It is not a DEM, it is a culmination of elements that enables the last act to begin.
Again, stop trying to justify ME3's failures by bashing it's betters.

 

And? That's an element that makes the last act possible. LIKE I SAID. It does not defeat Sovereign. It does not resolve the plot. It is not out of the blue, again, Ilos was a research facility dedicated to preserving Prothean knowledge and resisting the Reapers.

The problem was not about defeating Sovergin, it's noted that many fleets can beat him. The problem is the reaper invasion which if start would destroy everything. That data disc saved everyone.

To do so, Sovereign needed Saren to transfer control of the Citadel to him. With Saren dead, Sovereign was powerless. The data disc let Shepard open up the Citadel so that the fleet could take out Sovereign. In a last act of defiance, Sovereign took direct control of Saren, when Saren died, Sovereigns shields dropped, and he was quickly decimated by the fleet. The whole move was some what of a gamble.

[txgoldrush]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The problem was not about defeating Sovergin, it's noted that many fleets can beat him. The problem is the reaper invasion which if start would destroy everything. That data disc saved everyone.

Vigil's files enabled the possibility, and were properly justified. Stop being obtuse.

Which is solving a problem.

Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the main problem of the story and can come at any time where there is an unsolvable problem.

Nevermind the data file is NOT foreshadowed at all.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
The data file clears the way to Soverign being defeated...thats still DEM.

See "Plot Device", not "DEM".

The problem was not in defeating Sovergin, the problem was stopping the reaper invasion. The data file stopped the invasion, which is worse then sovergin.

Learn the defintion of a DEM.

[The Angry One]

txgoldrush wrote...

and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

The EC Catalyst shoots it's own argument in the foot, contradicts itself multiple times and is generally even more nonsensical than before.
The original Catalyst at least had vagueness in it's favour, EC Catalyst doesn't even have that.

It is extremely poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

That "theme" was never anything more than a B plot.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

Ah here we go. No. What we wanted was an ending that made sense. What we wanted was an ending that fit the actual themes, not one Mac Walters made up in the last 5 minutes that was only ever reflected in various B plots THAT WERE ALREADY RESOLVED.

No one, NO ONE was thinking of the conflict between organics and synthetics when we reached the final battle, and don't come here and pretend you did. You're trying to justify it after the fact.