435 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

txgoldrush wrote...


and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

ME1 - theme - Reapers
ME2 - theme - Collectors aka Reapers´s agents
ME3 - theme - Synthetics VS organics ? 

Profit ???

Conflict of Geths and Quarians was just a history lesson, part of lore which give to story better taste and not main coflict.
Otherwise your supposed theme falling in one explanation of Javik about Zha and Zha´til which Reapers turn into abominations despite that they achieved level of synthesis on their own.

Fans are problem only because Catalyst is pure crap unless it´s not an indoctrination which would make a sense...

[Conniving_Eagle]

txgoldrush wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Because he gives you a win button.

Did we play the same game, or did I just fever dream the entirety of ME's third act?

And I hope you see how completely irrelevant (and fallacious) the foundation of this argument is. A poorly-written story does not become well-written simply because it is juxtaposed with other poorly-written stories, nor does its sloppiness become justified.

That being said, Vigil is not a DEM. And how the LP can be in any way construed as one is beyond my comprehension. Stupid? Exceptionally. Wack? Exceedingly. Deus ex machina? No. And respectfully, the way you're attempting to apply the word makes me suspect that you don't know what it means at all, that you are sprinkling it around generously as a tacit defence of ME3's terrible narrative mistakes. As I said--this may blow your mind--but:

a = 0, b = BioWare
Sh*t + Sh*t =/= ∫(gold)d(decent writing)

THIS IS BLOODY SCIENCE.

and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

I would like for you to elaborate. Paragon and Renegade are a means to an end.

[What a Succulent Ass]

txgoldrush wrote...

...

Was that even a reply to me, because I quite honestly feel like it was entirely disconnected to anything I wrote.

[The Angry One]

txgoldrush wrote...

Which is solving a problem.

Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the main problem of the story and can come at any time where there is an unsolvable problem.

Nevermind the data file is NOT foreshadowed at all.

That the Protheans are able to sabotage the Reapers in some way is foreshadowed in the conversation and justified by Ilos itself.
I've had enough of your obtuseness, refusal to admit that you're wrong and repeated attempts to bash ME1 and fans in general to prop up ME3.

This exchange is over.

Modifié par The Angry One, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:45 .

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

He does solve a problem (which is rendering Soverign attackable byu the fifth fleet) and thats enough for him to qualify. Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the MAIN problem in the story just a significant hurdle of any kind, like even the impeding death of the hero.

Vigil solves the issue of why Sovereign needs to attack the Citadel this way if the Reapers created it in the first place.
This is a dangling plot thread that is neatly resolved by the introduction of Vigil. This therefore justifies Vigil's virus, because Ilos was full of researchers trying to figure out how to mess with the Reapers in various ways.

It is not a DEM, it is a culmination of elements that enables the last act to begin.
Again, stop trying to justify ME3's failures by bashing it's betters.

 

And? That's an element that makes the last act possible. LIKE I SAID. It does not defeat Sovereign. It does not resolve the plot. It is not out of the blue, again, Ilos was a research facility dedicated to preserving Prothean knowledge and resisting the Reapers.

The problem was not about defeating Sovergin, it's noted that many fleets can beat him. The problem is the reaper invasion which if start would destroy everything. That data disc saved everyone.

To do so, Sovereign needed Saren to transfer control of the Citadel to him. With Saren dead, Sovereign was powerless. The data disc let Shepard open up the Citadel so that the fleet could take out Sovereign. In a last act of defiance, Sovereign took direct control of Saren, when Saren died, Sovereigns shields dropped, and he was quickly decimated by the fleet. The whole move was some what of a gamble.

Saren , before fighting/confunting Shepard, already let Sovergin in the system. Kill Saren did not stop the reaper invasion. Imputing the data disc did. The reaper invasion was the problem. It was already stated  the fleets can kill sovergin.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

You not getting. Saying that it was not full explined in the begining but fully explined in the middle of the plot doesn't make it a deus ex if it's and option at the end. Control is not a deus ex because it's not suddenly introduce with no hint or expliationto why it's an option. 
 Read up on what is a deus ex....
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Every defination you used was wrong.

When did I say Control is a deus ex machina? Any more sh*t you want to pull out of thin air?

Also, the definition I used earlier was from wikipedia. Here's the definition from TvTropes-

TvTropes wrote...

A Deus ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

Dictionary.com wrote...

any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.

Want to tell me I'm wrong some more?

Modifié par o Ventus, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
The problem was not in defeating Sovergin, the problem was stopping the reaper invasion. The data file stopped the invasion, which is worse then sovergin.

Learn the defintion of a DEM.

No, the Reaper invasion was stopped by the Protheans WAAAAAAAAAY before ME1. Soverign was going to use the manual override to work around the problem.

Did you even pay attention to ME1?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Also, just as an exercise in curiosity, can you tell me why the Catalyst is well-written?

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Which is solving a problem.

Once again, a DEM does NOT have to solve the main problem of the story and can come at any time where there is an unsolvable problem.

Nevermind the data file is NOT foreshadowed at all.

That the Protheans are able to sabotage the Reapers in some way is foreshadowed in the conversation and justified by Ilos itself.
I've had enough of your obtuseness, refusal to admit that you're wrong and repeated attempts to bash ME1 and fans in general to prop up ME3.

This exchange is over.

We didn't know the prothean sabataged any thing till we talked to Vigil, who gave us the data disc that stopped the invasion.

Modifié par dreman9999, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:48 .

[txgoldrush]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

ME1 - theme - Reapers
ME2 - theme - Collectors aka Reapers´s agents
ME3 - theme - Synthetics VS organics ? 

Profit ???

Conflict of Geths and Quarians was just a history lesson, part of lore which give to story better taste and not main coflict.
Otherwise your supposed theme falling in one explanation of Javik about Zha and Zha´til which Reapers turn into abominations despite that they achieved level of synthesis on their own.

Fans are problem only because Catalyst is pure crap unless it´s not an indoctrination which would make a sense...

ME1 - finding humanity's place in the galaxy
ME2 - earning the loyalty and trust for a tough mission.
ME3 -  victory through sacrifice.

THOSE are the themes of the games.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The problem was not in defeating Sovergin, the problem was stopping the reaper invasion. The data file stopped the invasion, which is worse then sovergin.

Learn the defintion of a DEM.

No, the Reaper invasion was stopped by the Protheans WAAAAAAAAAY before ME1. Soverign was going to use the manual override to work around the problem.

Did you even pay attention to ME1?

We stop sovergin form manually overriding the citadel with the data disc from Vigil. Do you not get that?

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

We didn't know the prohean sabataged any thing till we talked to Vigil, who gave us the data disc that stopped the invasion.

We have a general idea that the Reapers are sort of winging it. SOMETHING happened.
Then we see through the omniscient player view that Sovereign is attacking the Citadel - why? Vigil brings these elements together through it's exposition which then justifies the data file.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
We didn't know the prohean sabataged any thing till we talked to Vigil, who gave us the data disc that stopped the invasion. allowed us the opportunity to stop Soverign before he could open the Citadel Relay. Which makes the data files a plot device, and Vigil not a DEM.

Fixed that for you.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Since it seems there won't be a conclusion to this argument, I'll say this:

Whether Vigil is a DEM or not(he's not), Vigil does not derail the narrative consistency of ME1.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 14 juillet 2012 - 06:49 .

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
We stop sovergin form manually overriding the citadel with the data disc from Vigil. Do you not get that?

No, we stopped him by, well, killing him. With some help from a "Plot Device".

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

ME1 - finding humanity's place in the galaxy
ME2 - earning the loyalty and trust for a tough mission.
ME3 -  victory through sacrifice.

THOSE are the themes of the games.

You are consciously aware that none of the 3 games adhere to only 1 theme, right?

And no, ME3 is most certainly not victory through sacrifice, otherwise I wouldn't be getting Aralakh company + the rachni, or krogan + salarian support, or geth + quarian support.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You not getting. Saying that it was not full explined in the begining but fully explined in the middle of the plot doesn't make it a deus ex if it's and option at the end. Control is not a deus ex because it's not suddenly introduce with no hint or expliationto why it's an option. 
 Read up on what is a deus ex....
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Every defination you used was wrong.

When did I say Control is a deus ex machina? Any more sh*t you want to pull out of thin air?

Also, the definition I used earlier was from wikipedia. Here's the definition from TvTropes-

TvTropes wrote...

A Deus ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

Dictionary.com wrote...

any artificial or improbable device resolving the difficulties of a plot.

Want to tell me I'm wrong some more?

You wrong because control was never suddenly solves the problem.  The tv tropes defination contadictes the dictionary .com defination and 
merriam-webster.com siteis the more crdible sorce.

[Conniving_Eagle]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

ME1 - finding humanity's place in the galaxy
ME2 - earning the loyalty and trust for a tough mission.
ME3 -  victory through sacrifice.

THOSE are the themes of the games.

You are consciously aware that none of the 3 games adhere to only 1 theme, right?

And no, ME3 is most certainly not victory through sacrifice, otherwise I wouldn't be getting Aralakh company + the rachni, or krogan + salarian support, or geth + quarian support.

People's biggest point to the series being about sacrafice is the Virmire casualty. The series is about choice in general, with Paragon/Renegade being a means to an end.

Ending to ME1, either way the Humanity earns a spot on the council.

Ending to ME2, either way the Collectors are killed off and no longer a threat.

Ending to ME3, the Reapers are no longer a threat.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Also, just as an exercise in curiosity, can you tell me why the Catalyst is well-written?

Quoting for great justice.

Aside: Reveals and plot twists require a set up (a logical one at that). The bigger and more astonishing the reveal, the more intricate and well-thought out the set up must be.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We stop sovergin form manually overriding the citadel with the data disc from Vigil. Do you not get that?

No, we stopped him by, well, killing him. With some help from a "Plot Device".

That still is a DEM. And the problem was stopping the reaper invasion, which the data disc solves.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

You wrong because control was never suddenly solves the problem.  The tv tropes defination contadictes the dictionary .com defination and 
merriam-webster.com siteis the more crdible sorce.

I NEVER SAID CONTROL IS A DEUS EX MACHINA. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?

IS MY FONT LARGE ENOUGH FOR YOU?

And lol @ you handwaving a credible source because it's not an official dictionary.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We didn't know the prohean sabataged any thing till we talked to Vigil, who gave us the data disc that stopped the invasion. allowed us the opportunity to stop Soverign before he could open the Citadel Relay. Which makes the data files a plot device, and Vigil not a DEM.

Fixed that for you.

That still is stopping the invasion.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
We didn't know the prohean sabataged any thing till we talked to Vigil, who gave us the data disc that stopped the invasion. allowed us the opportunity to stop Soverign before he could open the Citadel Relay. Which makes the data files a plot device, and Vigil not a DEM.

Fixed that for you.

That still is stopping the invasion.

How is it stopping the invasion when Sovereign is manually priming to start the invasion?

[txgoldrush]

The Angry One wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

and the extended cut version of the Catalyst isn't poorly written.

The EC Catalyst shoots it's own argument in the foot, contradicts itself multiple times and is generally even more nonsensical than before.
The original Catalyst at least had vagueness in it's favour, EC Catalyst doesn't even have that.

It is extremely poorly written.

He fits the themes of the series of the conflict between the created and the creators, but the choices are based around ME3's main theme, sacrifice.

That "theme" was never anything more than a B plot.

The problem is the fans....they want a bang bang kill th ebad guy ending and Bioware did not want to give it to them.

Ah here we go. No. What we wanted was an ending that made sense. What we wanted was an ending that fit the actual themes, not one Mac Walters made up in the last 5 minutes that was only ever reflected in various B plots THAT WERE ALREADY RESOLVED.

No one, NO ONE was thinking of the conflict between organics and synthetics when we reached the final battle, and don't come here and pretend you did. You're trying to justify it after the fact.

Once again, because the Catalyst may have been intended to contradict himself....he sites that synthetics will overthrow and kill their creators, but he does just that. He is part of the problem. Villians CAN have logic flaws. Why does he have to be perfectly logical?

And really, the ending is not really about organics and synthetics....the conflict between.....

THOSE THAT ARE WILLING TO GIVE THEMSELVES IN SACRIFICE vs THOSE THAT FORCE SACRIFICE.

BOTH conflicts between Shepard and the TIM, and Shepard and the Catalyst portray the theme of sacrifice. THAT WHERE THE CONFLICT IS.

Notice that Shepard doesn;t even debate Catalyst's motives, he debates his former SOLUTION....the solution to kill people and "ascend" them.

The TIM conflict isn't even about controlling the Reapers in the end, its about how he sacrificed people to pursue the goal, and playing right into the Reapers hands.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You wrong because control was never suddenly solves the problem.  The tv tropes defination contadictes the dictionary .com defination and 
merriam-webster.com siteis the more crdible sorce.

I NEVER SAID CONTROL IS A DEUS EX MACHINA. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ?

IS MY FONT LARGE ENOUGH FOR YOU?

And lol @ you handwaving a credible source because it's not an official dictionary.

Ofcouse I can discredit a source because it's not an offical dictionary. If it's not an offical dictionary, ithas no real credit.

Added, it's good that you understand,. Now you understand the starchild does givea saluton to the problem. He just adds more problems.