435 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

More productive than this thread.

Modifié par xsdob, 14 juillet 2012 - 07:42 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

But it can...

Its a key element to the combination.

Maybe I can explain it better via an example. Probably not the best, but I'll try it anyway-

Lord Zedd has just created some 3-armed gorilla monster to destroy the human race. The Power Rangers need to form the Megazord to kill the gorilla monster. The Megazord is comprised of a number of smaller Zords.

In this case, Sovereign is the gorilla monster, the Power Rangers are Shepard and co, and Vigil's file is one of the smaller Zords that forms the Megazord. The Megazord in this case is the combination of all the events that lead up to Sovereign's defeat (Saren's 2nd death, Vigil's file, The Normandy's killshot).

It is not a deus ex machina.

Modifié par o Ventus, 14 juillet 2012 - 07:45 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

xsdob wrote...

We need a thread simulator for the BSN, that'd be good for a LOL and loss in faith for humanity.

If BSN is what makes you lose faith in humanity, you really should get out more.

[Ticonderoga117]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Shh, don't tell them that...

This is too much fun to watch. 

Oh.. right, sorry.

[txgoldrush]

jreezy wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

It is the reason for his downfall. With out it, Sovergin would of succeeded. What would stop him if it was not introduced into the system?

No, husk-Saren dying was the reason Sovereign met his downfall. If it weren't for Saren being taken over by Sovereign, Sovereign would have retaken control of the Citadel and called the Reapers in.

I wonder why Soverign takes over Saren......

That always felt unnecessary to me.

He doesn't know its temporary.

He needs to take back control of the station and kill Shepard and his crew.

[xsdob]

Random Jerkface wrote...

xsdob wrote...

We need a thread simulator for the BSN, that'd be good for a LOL and loss in faith for humanity.

If BSN is what makes you lose faith in humanity, you really should get out more.

Thread simulators make me laugh a lot, but also die a little inside knowing such people exsist, and that they are not all trolls.

[o Ventus]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's funny because the both of you have no idea what the classification of a DEM is in literature, as you are only applying it to one situation. 

By the logic you two are using, every plot device ever in every single story ever written uses a DEM. 

Please, just stop while you are both somewhat ahead.

You are consciously aware that I'm the one saying that Vigil et al, are NOT deus ex machinas, yes?

[HangedBIgD]

xsdob wrote...





More productive than this thread.

Thank you for posting these links those vids made my day and made me realize why I dont want to live on this planet anymore lol.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

But it can...

Its a key element to the combination.

Maybe I can explain it better via an example. Probably not the best, but I'll try it anyway-

Lord Zedd has just created some 3-armed gorilla monster to destroy the human race. The Power Rangers need to form the Megazord to kill the gorilla monster. The Megazord is comprised of a number of smaller Zords.

In this case, Sovereign is the gorilla monster, the Power Rangers are Shepard and co, and Vigil's file is one of the smaller Zords that forms the Megazord. The Megazord in this case is the combination of all the events that lead up to Sovereign's defeat (Saren's 2nd death, Vigil's file, The Normandy's killshot).

Your allegory does not hold water...nevermind that once again a DEM can solve any problem not the main one. And once again, control of the station is one of the problems and a key one. Hell, a DEM does not even have to directly relate to the main problem and can be used to spare the protagonist is a contrived manner at the middle or even at the beginning of a work.

Just admit it, its a DEM.

I haven't even called ME1 bad for using it...hell, I think its executed pretty well, but by definition, it is a DEM.

The Lazarus Project on the other hand, its not so well executed.

[What a Succulent Ass]

xsdob wrote...

Thread simulators make me laugh a lot, but also die a little inside knowing such people exsist, and that they are not all trolls.

Ehh, like I said.

[M Hedonist]

So everything is a DEM but the Crucible and the Catalyst?
Obviously, OP isn't a troll. He comes from Bizarro World.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

But it can...

Its a key element to the combination.

Maybe I can explain it better via an example. Probably not the best, but I'll try it anyway-

Lord Zedd has just created some 3-armed gorilla monster to destroy the human race. The Power Rangers need to form the Megazord to kill the gorilla monster. The Megazord is comprised of a number of smaller Zords.

In this case, Sovereign is the gorilla monster, the Power Rangers are Shepard and co, and Vigil's file is one of the smaller Zords that forms the Megazord. The Megazord in this case is the combination of all the events that lead up to Sovereign's defeat (Saren's 2nd death, Vigil's file, The Normandy's killshot).

Your allegory does not hold water...nevermind that once again a DEM can solve any problem not the main one. And once again, control of the station is one of the problems and a key one. Hell, a DEM does not even have to directly relate to the main problem and can be used to spare the protagonist is a contrived manner at the middle or even at the beginning of a work.

Just admit it, its a DEM.

I haven't even called ME1 bad for using it...hell, I think its executed pretty well, but by definition, it is a DEM.

The Lazarus Project on the other hand, its not so well executed.

Why does it not hold water? You need to explain your case when you present it as fact.

And no, it is not a DEM, because Vigil's file does not solve anything. It doesn't kill Sovereign, because The Normandy does that after Saren dies a 2nd time. It doesn't prevent Sovereign from calling in his Reaper buddies, because Vigil itself states that it is only a delaying action, not a resolution.

It's 1 component to Sovereign's downfall, but the file, by itself, does not do it.

[txgoldrush]

Sauruz wrote...

So everything is a DEM but the Crucible and the Catalyst?
Obviously, OP isn't a troll. He comes from Bizarro World.

When did I even say that everything is a DEM?

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

However the Crucible and the Catalyst are NOT DEM.

1. Because they are introduced early in the story in a logical manner.
2. Their roles are well defined and consistant with the end of the game despite the plot twist.
3. And they are never even truly the final solution...in fact Shepard herself is the solution. Shei s the one that truly solves the cycle, and the Crucible and the Catalyst end up being tools or influenced by her.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

But it can...

Its a key element to the combination.

Maybe I can explain it better via an example. Probably not the best, but I'll try it anyway-

Lord Zedd has just created some 3-armed gorilla monster to destroy the human race. The Power Rangers need to form the Megazord to kill the gorilla monster. The Megazord is comprised of a number of smaller Zords.

In this case, Sovereign is the gorilla monster, the Power Rangers are Shepard and co, and Vigil's file is one of the smaller Zords that forms the Megazord. The Megazord in this case is the combination of all the events that lead up to Sovereign's defeat (Saren's 2nd death, Vigil's file, The Normandy's killshot).

Your allegory does not hold water...nevermind that once again a DEM can solve any problem not the main one. And once again, control of the station is one of the problems and a key one. Hell, a DEM does not even have to directly relate to the main problem and can be used to spare the protagonist is a contrived manner at the middle or even at the beginning of a work.

Just admit it, its a DEM.

I haven't even called ME1 bad for using it...hell, I think its executed pretty well, but by definition, it is a DEM.

The Lazarus Project on the other hand, its not so well executed.

Why does it not hold water? You need to explain your case when you present it as fact.

And no, it is not a DEM, because Vigil's file does not solve anything. It doesn't kill Sovereign, because The Normandy does that after Saren dies a 2nd time. It doesn't prevent Sovereign from calling in his Reaper buddies, because Vigil itself states that it is only a delaying action, not a resolution.

It's 1 component to Sovereign's downfall, but the file, by itself, does not do it.

Once again, it doesn't have to kill soverign.

You are so focused on the main problem you miss the point entirely.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Once again, it doesn't have to kill soverign.

You are so focused on the main problem you miss the point entirely.

Killing Sovereign is what prevents the Reaper invasion. The objective is to kill Sovereign. This is made readily apparent throughout the final mission.

The file does not accomplish this objective, ergo, it is not a deus ex machina.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Once again, it doesn't have to kill soverign.

You are so focused on the main problem you miss the point entirely.

Killing Sovereign is what prevents the Reaper invasion. The objective is to kill Sovereign. This is made readily apparent throughout the final mission.

The file does not accomplish this objective, ergo, it is not a deus ex machina.

The file plain and simple solves the problem of Reaper control of the Citadel, without it, they lose. This solves an otherwise unsolvable problem.

And without it, Soverign wouldn't die. He would just sit there and succeed.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:20 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

The file plain and simple solves the problem of Reaper control of the Citadel, without it, they lose. This solves an otherwise unsolvable problem.

You're not understanding my point.

The file disrupts Sovereign's current ability to control the Citadel. The file is only a delaying action, Vigil tells you this. 

Sovereign was going to regain control of Citadel systems, this is made apparent. To speed this process, Sovereign takes control of Saren's corpse and attemps to kill Shepard with it. If Sovereign had simply NOT done this, he would have regained control.

Ergo, the file itself literally does not stop Sovereign.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The file plain and simple solves the problem of Reaper control of the Citadel, without it, they lose. This solves an otherwise unsolvable problem.

You're not understanding my point.

The file disrupts Sovereign's current ability to control the Citadel. The file is only a delaying action, Vigil tells you this. 

Sovereign was going to regain control of Citadel systems, this is made apparent. To speed this process, Sovereign takes control of Saren's corpse and attemps to kill Shepard with it. If Sovereign had simply NOT done this, he would have regained control.

Ergo, the file itself literally does not stop Sovereign.

It doesn;t matter if its a delaying action, it still solves a problem of not even having a chance.

Plus Soverign has no knowledge of the data file and that its temporary. Therefore, he sees Shepard as a threat that must be stopped.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2012 - 08:25 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

It doesn;t matter if its a delaying action, it still solves a problem of not even having a chance.

There is still a chance, it's just Sovereign's own fault for ruining any potential at taking the chance.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It doesn;t matter if its a delaying action, it still solves a problem of not even having a chance.

There is still a chance, it's just Sovereign's own fault for ruining any potential at taking the chance.

No, there is no chance...without the file, Sovereign keeps control of the Citadel....he would win.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It doesn;t matter if its a delaying action, it still solves a problem of not even having a chance.

There is still a chance, it's just Sovereign's own fault for ruining any potential at taking the chance.

No, there is no chance...without the file, Sovereign keeps control of the Citadel....he would win.

Without the file = Sovereign wins.

With the file = Sovereign can still win, it would just take longer. This is the point of Vigil stressing that it's only a delaying action.

[DarkSpiral]

Its probably been said, but I'll posy it anyway. The reason Vigil's data file is not a Deus Ex machina is because it doesn't solve anything. It enables Shepard to solve the problem yes, but the defining characteristic of the term is that the person or object solves the problem FOR the protagonist, not enable the protagonist to solve it themselves.

Project Lazerus is neither of those things. It's a background plot device. You could remove it, Shepard's death, and just have him be approached by TIM in a more conventional manner, and ME2 would have played out in more or less the same way.

The Crucible is ALSO not a Deus Ex Machina. It is the MacGuffin.

The Catalyst might be a Deus Ex Machina, but the fact that we hear the term very early on in the game, and have it mentioned several times by more than one character in the narrative, makes that definition an imperfect fit.

[What a Succulent Ass]

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

LOTS OF DEUS EX MACHINATIONS FROM EVERYONE.

[txgoldrush]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Its probably been said, but I'll posy it anyway. The reason Vigil's data file is not a Deus Ex machina is because it doesn't solve anything. It enables Shepard to solve the problem yes, but the defining characteristic of the term is that the person or object solves the problem FOR the protagonist, not enable the protagonist to solve it themselves.

Project Lazerus is neither of those things. It's a background plot device. You could remove it, Shepard's death, and just have him be approached by TIM in a more conventional manner, and ME2 would have played out in more or less the same way.

The Crucible is ALSO not a Deus Ex Machina. It is the MacGuffin.

The Catalyst might be a Deus Ex Machina, but the fact that we hear the term very early on in the game, and have it mentioned several times by more than one character in the narrative, makes that definition an imperfect fit.

However it does solve the problem, as I have said, it does not have to solve the main problem. Hell, DEM can be used to solve a problem unrelated or loosely connected to the main problem. The object solves the control of the citadel problem, plain and simple. However, I do think that there is no real narrative problem with this because its handled overall well despite the fact that its a DEM.

The Project Lazarus is a DEM, a rare use in that its a set up to the story instead of being a conclusion or midpoint of one. It creates a problem with Shepards death, than abruptly solves it through his unexplained at the time resurrection. This is an unorthdoz case of DEM use, but it is one nontheless.

Correct, the Crucible is a MacGuffin.

And I have already explained the Catalyst has had dreman.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Correct, the Crucible is a MacGuffin.

A MacGuffin is a plot device that motivates the plot, but otherwise serves no purpose. The Crucible fulfills a purpose, other than just motivating the plot.

It is not a MacGuffin. A MacGuffin would be something like the brief case from Pulp Fiction.