435 réponses à ce sujet

[SpamBot2000]

16 pages, seriously? Is someone paying for absurd categorical statements by the pound?

[DarkSpiral]

txgoldrush wrote...

However it does solve the problem, as I have said, it does not have to solve the main problem. Hell, DEM can be used to solve a problem unrelated or loosely connected to the main problem. The object solves the control of the citadel problem, plain and simple. However, I do think that there is no real narrative problem with this because its handled overall well despite the fact that its a DEM.

Actually, that's exactly what it has to do.  Deus Ex Machina is not a term that mean s"anything that makes an impossible problem suddenly solveable."  The term specifically means something that concludes the story.  The end of Tartuffe (a play set in France before the Revolution) is my favorite example; the French King swoops in and makes everything better...simply because he IS the King.  And then the play ends.  In order for the Lazarus Project to qualify as a Deus Ex machina, it actually MUST CONCLUDE the story.  Since the Lazarus Project is part of the backstory of the very begining of ME2, in is without a doubt not a Deus Ex Machina.  In order for Vigil's data file to be a Deus Ex Machina it must not simply allow Shepard the chance to win, it actually has to be the only factor that matters.  It would have to be more important than Saren's 2nd death, for example, which it isn't.

The problem here is that you're using a very specific term for situations it actually doesn't apply to.

[DarkSpiral]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Correct, the Crucible is a MacGuffin.

A MacGuffin is a plot device that motivates the plot, but otherwise serves no purpose. The Crucible fulfills a purpose, other than just motivating the plot.

It is not a MacGuffin. A MacGuffin would be something like the brief case from Pulp Fiction.

Hm.  I suppose you have a point, there.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Correct, the Crucible is a MacGuffin.

A MacGuffin is a plot device that motivates the plot, but otherwise serves no purpose. The Crucible fulfills a purpose, other than just motivating the plot.

It is not a MacGuffin. A MacGuffin would be something like the brief case from Pulp Fiction.

No, its a MacGuffin.

"is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable."

Although it may lose its MacGuffin status in the EC when its defined as a power source....but ti acts like one throughout the game.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, its a MacGuffin.

"is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable."

Although it may lose its MacGuffin status in the EC when its defined as a power source....but ti acts like one throughout the game.

Straight from TvTropes-

(a.k.a. McGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a motivating element in a story that is used to drive the plot. It actually serves no further purpose.

[txgoldrush]

DarkSpiral wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However it does solve the problem, as I have said, it does not have to solve the main problem. Hell, DEM can be used to solve a problem unrelated or loosely connected to the main problem. The object solves the control of the citadel problem, plain and simple. However, I do think that there is no real narrative problem with this because its handled overall well despite the fact that its a DEM.

Actually, that's exactly what it has to do.  Deus Ex Machina is not a term that mean s"anything that makes an impossible problem suddenly solveable."  The term specifically means something that concludes the story.  The end of Tartuffe (a play set in France before the Revolution) is my favorite example; the French King swoops in and makes everything better...simply because he IS the King.  And then the play ends.  In order for the Lazarus Project to qualify as a Deus Ex machina, it actually MUST CONCLUDE the story.  Since the Lazarus Project is part of the backstory of the very begining of ME2, in is without a doubt not a Deus Ex Machina.  In order for Vigil's data file to be a Deus Ex Machina it must not simply allow Shepard the chance to win, it actually has to be the only factor that matters.  It would have to be more important than Saren's 2nd death, for example, which it isn't.

The problem here is that you're using a very specific term for situations it actually doesn't apply to.

Wrong.

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

http://bestforfilm.c...achina-moments/

Some of these don't conclude the story.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, its a MacGuffin.

"is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable."

Although it may lose its MacGuffin status in the EC when its defined as a power source....but ti acts like one throughout the game.

Straight from TvTropes-

(a.k.a. McGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a motivating element in a story that is used to drive the plot. It actually serves no further purpose.

MacGuffin is an offical literary term.

[DarkSpiral]

txgoldrush wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However it does solve the problem, as I have said, it does not have to solve the main problem. Hell, DEM can be used to solve a problem unrelated or loosely connected to the main problem. The object solves the control of the citadel problem, plain and simple. However, I do think that there is no real narrative problem with this because its handled overall well despite the fact that its a DEM.

Actually, that's exactly what it has to do.  Deus Ex Machina is not a term that mean s"anything that makes an impossible problem suddenly solveable."  The term specifically means something that concludes the story.  The end of Tartuffe (a play set in France before the Revolution) is my favorite example; the French King swoops in and makes everything better...simply because he IS the King.  And then the play ends.  In order for the Lazarus Project to qualify as a Deus Ex machina, it actually MUST CONCLUDE the story.  Since the Lazarus Project is part of the backstory of the very begining of ME2, in is without a doubt not a Deus Ex Machina.  In order for Vigil's data file to be a Deus Ex Machina it must not simply allow Shepard the chance to win, it actually has to be the only factor that matters.  It would have to be more important than Saren's 2nd death, for example, which it isn't.

The problem here is that you're using a very specific term for situations it actually doesn't apply to.

Wrong.

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

http://bestforfilm.c...achina-moments/

Some of these don't conclude the story.

Some Most of them are also not valid examples of Deus Ex Machina.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:18 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

Yes it does.

The Crucible is a non-standard type of DEM. 

Chekhov's Gun Deus ex Machina — When the outside plot element is set up in some minor way earlier in the story, but not in the way it is eventually used. In this version, before the hero dies it’s mentioned in passing the Great Wizard Bob is in town doing fortune telling. However, Wizard Bob shows up to revive the hero after he’s dead, instead of using fortune telling to prevent the hero’s death in the first place.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

No, its a MacGuffin.

"is a plot device in the form of some goal, desired object, or other motivator that the protagonist (and sometimes the antagonist) is willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to pursue, often with little or no narrative explanation as to why it is considered so desirable."

Although it may lose its MacGuffin status in the EC when its defined as a power source....but ti acts like one throughout the game.

Straight from TvTropes-

(a.k.a. McGuffin or maguffin) is a term for a motivating element in a story that is used to drive the plot. It actually serves no further purpose.

MacGuffin is an offical literary term.

I never said it wasn't?

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

Yes it does.

The Crucible is a non-standard type of DEM. 

Chekhov's Gun Deus ex Machina — When the outside plot element is set up in some minor way earlier in the story, but not in the way it is eventually used. In this version, before the hero dies it’s mentioned in passing the Great Wizard Bob is in town doing fortune telling. However, Wizard Bob shows up to revive the hero after he’s dead, instead of using fortune telling to prevent the hero’s death in the first place.

Wrong.

Because the Catalyst is not the real solution. Shepards the solution.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

Yes it does.

The Crucible is a non-standard type of DEM. 

Chekhov's Gun Deus ex Machina — When the outside plot element is set up in some minor way earlier in the story, but not in the way it is eventually used. In this version, before the hero dies it’s mentioned in passing the Great Wizard Bob is in town doing fortune telling. However, Wizard Bob shows up to revive the hero after he’s dead, instead of using fortune telling to prevent the hero’s death in the first place.

Wrong.

Because the Catalyst is not the real solution. Shepards the solution.

When did I ever mention the Catalyst?

[Reptilian Rob]

jreezy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

LOTS OF DEUS EX MACHINATIONS FROM EVERYONE.

Before this thread I'd never seen the term thrown around so willy-nilly. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disappointed.

By their logic every story told infinitum has DEM has a plot device.

They should just stop, but the damage is done. 

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

Yes it does.

The Crucible is a non-standard type of DEM. 

Chekhov's Gun Deus ex Machina — When the outside plot element is set up in some minor way earlier in the story, but not in the way it is eventually used. In this version, before the hero dies it’s mentioned in passing the Great Wizard Bob is in town doing fortune telling. However, Wizard Bob shows up to revive the hero after he’s dead, instead of using fortune telling to prevent the hero’s death in the first place.

Wrong.

Because the Catalyst is not the real solution. Shepards the solution.

When did I ever mention the Catalyst?

The Crucible isn't one either.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

Yes it does.

The Crucible is a non-standard type of DEM. 

Chekhov's Gun Deus ex Machina — When the outside plot element is set up in some minor way earlier in the story, but not in the way it is eventually used. In this version, before the hero dies it’s mentioned in passing the Great Wizard Bob is in town doing fortune telling. However, Wizard Bob shows up to revive the hero after he’s dead, instead of using fortune telling to prevent the hero’s death in the first place.

Wrong.

Because the Catalyst is not the real solution. Shepards the solution.

When did I ever mention the Catalyst?

The Crucible isn't one either.

Look at the example I provided above. That's the Crucible.

[txgoldrush]

DarkSpiral wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

However it does solve the problem, as I have said, it does not have to solve the main problem. Hell, DEM can be used to solve a problem unrelated or loosely connected to the main problem. The object solves the control of the citadel problem, plain and simple. However, I do think that there is no real narrative problem with this because its handled overall well despite the fact that its a DEM.

Actually, that's exactly what it has to do.  Deus Ex Machina is not a term that mean s"anything that makes an impossible problem suddenly solveable."  The term specifically means something that concludes the story.  The end of Tartuffe (a play set in France before the Revolution) is my favorite example; the French King swoops in and makes everything better...simply because he IS the King.  And then the play ends.  In order for the Lazarus Project to qualify as a Deus Ex machina, it actually MUST CONCLUDE the story.  Since the Lazarus Project is part of the backstory of the very begining of ME2, in is without a doubt not a Deus Ex Machina.  In order for Vigil's data file to be a Deus Ex Machina it must not simply allow Shepard the chance to win, it actually has to be the only factor that matters.  It would have to be more important than Saren's 2nd death, for example, which it isn't.

The problem here is that you're using a very specific term for situations it actually doesn't apply to.

Wrong.

It does NOT have to conclude the story. There is no part of the definition in where it has to be the conclusion of the story.

http://bestforfilm.c...achina-moments/

Some of these don't conclude the story.

Some Most of them are also not valid examples of Deus Ex Machina.

No, you are confusing the term from its Greek and Roman origins with its modern day usage.

DEM's do NOT have to come at the end of a story.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

LOTS OF DEUS EX MACHINATIONS FROM EVERYONE.

Before this thread I'd never seen the term thrown around so willy-nilly. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disappointed.

By their logic every story told infinitum has DEM has a plot device.

They should just stop, but the damage is done. 

What I'd like to know is what exactly Vigil's or the LP's being DEMs proves anyway.

[DarkSpiral]

txgoldrush wrote...


No, you are confusing the term from its Greek and Roman origins with its modern day usage.

DEM's do NOT have to come at the end of a story.

Ok then.  Where are you finding this definition then?  Because the classes I took in English, Theatre, and Creative Writing all tell me you're mistaken.  I suppose the definition of the term MIGHT have been altered in the ten years or so since I last attended college, but frankly I'm much more inclined to think you're insisting your personal interpretation of the word is equally valid with official definition, and that isn't exactly true.

[DarkSpiral]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

LOTS OF DEUS EX MACHINATIONS FROM EVERYONE.

Before this thread I'd never seen the term thrown around so willy-nilly. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disappointed.

By their logic every story told infinitum has DEM has a plot device.

They should just stop, but the damage is done. 

What I'd like to know is what exactly Vigil's or the LP's being DEMs proves anyway.

Nothing whatsoever.  Deus Ex Machina are largely frowned on in literature as being cheap cop-outs.  A failure of true creativity.  Calling the Crucible and the Catalyst a DEM, therefore, may borrow some credence to the idea that the ending was a cheap cop-out  and a failure of creativity.

[txgoldrush]

DarkSpiral wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...


No, you are confusing the term from its Greek and Roman origins with its modern day usage.

DEM's do NOT have to come at the end of a story.

Ok then.  Where are you finding this definition then?  Because the classes I took in English, Theatre, and Creative Writing all tell me you're mistaken.  I suppose the definition of the term MIGHT have been altered in the ten years or so since I last attended college, but frankly I'm much more inclined to think you're insisting your personal interpretation of the word is equally valid with official definition, and that isn't exactly true.

It can occur at ANY time in the story to resolve ANY difficult situation.



And I found the definition all over....none restricting it to the ending.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .

[txgoldrush]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

I said that Vigil's Data File and the Lazarus Project are....with Tali's intro almost being a DEM.

LOTS OF DEUS EX MACHINATIONS FROM EVERYONE.

Before this thread I'd never seen the term thrown around so willy-nilly. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or disappointed.

By their logic every story told infinitum has DEM has a plot device.

They should just stop, but the damage is done. 

What I'd like to know is what exactly Vigil's or the LP's being DEMs proves anyway.

Nothing whatsoever.  Deus Ex Machina are largely frowned on in literature as being cheap cop-outs.  A failure of true creativity.  Calling the Crucible and the Catalyst a DEM, therefore, may borrow some credence to the idea that the ending was a cheap cop-out  and a failure of creativity.

Not always....in some cases, DEM can be used effectively. An example is to show the ineffectiveness or the powerlessness of the protagonist. It also works when randomness is part of the story. And obviously, it works in comedy.

[Those Protheans]

ME1 and ME2 fans talking about Deus Ex Machinas =/= silly hypocritical fanbase.

[SpamBot2000]

You know why the whole Deus ex Machina(e?) thing is in Latin? Because that's how long people have been saying it's hackneyed, that's why.

[Those Protheans]

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously...the hypocrisy is atrocious. Hell, the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't even DEMs.

However, Vigils Data File in ME1 and the Lazarus Project in ME2 ARE Deus Ex Machinas.

Hell, Tali's evidence is pretty close to one as well for ME1. How convienant she pops up and solves the problem.

Pure textbook definition DEM.

Which the Crucible and the Catalyst doesn't fall into due to them being fleshed out and even foreshadowed.

This is cute but thew Crucible and the Catalyst were not foreshadowed in previous games.
The Crucible was just thrown in on the mars mission and here we have the Crucible.
The catalyst was a theory by the protheans heard 2 missions before the final mission, hardly foreshadowed.

The Crucible was hardly fleshed out, it was merely here it is, now use it.
Which was what happened, it is a mystery.
The Catalsyt was merely here I am and this me before you is I and you can see me.