435 réponses à ce sujet

[Arken]

Tali's evidence is a contrived plot point. It's overly convenient but not universe breaking. It's something that can maintain our suspension of disbelief.

The Lazarus Project was always stupid.

[NoUserNameHere]

txgoldrush wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

You activated my yandere laugh. You shouldn't do that, making me lol. People will start to talk.

Vigil's data file was a copy of what the Protheans developed alongside the Conduit -- which we've known about the entire game.
The lazarus project happened at the beginning of Mass Effect 2. Furthermore, it started all the game's conflict, it did not solve them all. While disbelief can be strained by the LP, it is far from a DEM.

The Crucible itself runs the gamut of the foreshadowing/asspull scale depending on its specific feature and function. That said, it never rises above a reaper off switch. Counting ME3 as its own game, not act III in a lone entry, it is not quite a DEM.

The Catalyst is sure as hell a DEM in every sense of the word. Godlike force here to resolve your plot? Check. Never-before-alluded-to entity at the heart of a previously charted space construct? Check. New (all-powerful, effectively) character introduced in the last 10 minutes?

Catalyst is a Deus Ex, mo'suckras.

Wrong

The Vendetta VI alluded to a master and the Reaper on Rannoch foreshadows its motive.

Vendetta implied something like a Reaper king once, and poorly. 

Rannoch Reaper is horrible writing in and of itself. Trying to go "Vendetta + Rannoch = CATALYST!" is like saying "1+2 = 9000"  The leap can only be made by those who've read ahead and know about the ending. 

[txgoldrush]

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I agree that the Crucible/Catalyst criticism is off-base, I believe DEM refers to situations where the main plot issue is resolved by it. So I don't think your examples fit, either.

Vigils file definitely does solve a huge problem, it overrides the Citadel controls to prevent Soverign from taking over....handed to Shep in a DEM fashion.

And Lazarus Project solves that death problem

You still have to kill Sovereign, though. If Vigil had short-circuited Sovereign that would have been a better example, I think. The Lazarus Project didn't defeat the Collectors.

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

[txgoldrush]

Vox Draco wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

I always thought that whole Deus Ex stuff was a referenece to the endings of...Deus Ex?

Anyway, the crucible and catalyst are maybe labeled false as DEM-devices, but that doesn't change the fact that the endings just feels as if it doesn't belong there, for many reasons told multiple times. And is there a word in english for a "villain" (yeah, if only it was one....) that is introduced in the last ten minutes of the game?

Sorry but thematically, the endings do belong....too bad.

Simply put, fans wanted it to be about something else so the fans judge on how they wanted it to be, not how it is.

Too bad I disagree...and now? When I watch the entire series this ending has no place in it. And Bioware and you can like it all the way, for me it doesn't fit, and I am gladly not alone in this.

The fans wanted it to end as promised and implied from the start and over the course of the series...you know, choices that matter, the whole unification of the galaxy mattering, a villain to focus their hatred of the Reapers, seeing Shepard doing the most impossible of the impossible and staying in-character while doing that ...

No, the themes of the series were abandoned in favor for new ones introduced on the last minute...

No, you wanted a conventional story...too bad, Bioware didn't provide one.

[Mcfly616]

Catalyst: the best damn character in the series




BOOM Baby

[txgoldrush]

Arken wrote...

Tali's evidence is a contrived plot point. It's overly convenient but not universe breaking. It's something that can maintain our suspension of disbelief.

The Lazarus Project was always stupid.

Its near a DEM...but not quite.

And Homewrolds #2 makes it less so.

But Homeworlds #4 will do the same for the Crucible.

[txgoldrush]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

You activated my yandere laugh. You shouldn't do that, making me lol. People will start to talk.

Vigil's data file was a copy of what the Protheans developed alongside the Conduit -- which we've known about the entire game.
The lazarus project happened at the beginning of Mass Effect 2. Furthermore, it started all the game's conflict, it did not solve them all. While disbelief can be strained by the LP, it is far from a DEM.

The Crucible itself runs the gamut of the foreshadowing/asspull scale depending on its specific feature and function. That said, it never rises above a reaper off switch. Counting ME3 as its own game, not act III in a lone entry, it is not quite a DEM.

The Catalyst is sure as hell a DEM in every sense of the word. Godlike force here to resolve your plot? Check. Never-before-alluded-to entity at the heart of a previously charted space construct? Check. New (all-powerful, effectively) character introduced in the last 10 minutes?

Catalyst is a Deus Ex, mo'suckras.

Wrong

The Vendetta VI alluded to a master and the Reaper on Rannoch foreshadows its motive.

Vendetta implied something like a Reaper king once, and poorly. 

Rannoch Reaper is horrible writing in and of itself. Trying to go "Vendetta + Rannoch = CATALYST!" is like saying "1+2 = 9000"  The leap can only be made by those who've read ahead and know about the ending. 

Both suggest a master however.

[legion999]

txgoldrush wrote...

Arken wrote...

Tali's evidence is a contrived plot point. It's overly convenient but not universe breaking. It's something that can maintain our suspension of disbelief.

The Lazarus Project was always stupid.

Its near a DEM...but not quite.

And Homewrolds #2 makes it less so.

But Homeworlds #4 will do the same for the Crucible.

Outside media should not be required to understand or explain what's in the game.

[thefallen2far]

Yeah, I mean it's ripped from the gamedeus ex.. I actually have no problem with the literary concept of Deus Ex, but that ending is just a joke on every level.

[Vox Draco]

txgoldrush wrote...

No, you wanted a conventional story...too bad, Bioware didn't provide one.

Yes, I wanted a conventional story that makes conventional sense and provides conventioanl uplifting emotions and also leaves me conventionally satisfied and conventioanlly eager to replay the game and buy even more conventional DLCs...

Too bad, Bioware failed to realize that was the way Mass Effect should have ended to make themselves and most fans happy and content. But hey, at least you are happy! That's a start!

[NoUserNameHere]

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I agree that the Crucible/Catalyst criticism is off-base, I believe DEM refers to situations where the main plot issue is resolved by it. So I don't think your examples fit, either.

Vigils file definitely does solve a huge problem, it overrides the Citadel controls to prevent Soverign from taking over....handed to Shep in a DEM fashion.

And Lazarus Project solves that death problem

You still have to kill Sovereign, though. If Vigil had short-circuited Sovereign that would have been a better example, I think. The Lazarus Project didn't defeat the Collectors.

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

The Planet sending reinforcements in Avatar counts as this kind of DEM. 

Vigil is an exposition fairy. What does he do to save the day, again? Provide context? What a cop-out, amiright? 

If Starbrat had been a dumb VI that explained the Crucible to you, DEM wouldn't be a problem. EDI or Avina would've been better suited for the roll, but whatever. It's his 'Hey there, turns out the Citadel is Reaper-God!' tweeeeeest that brings the obnoxious stench of Deus Ex Machina into the narrative, here. 

[txgoldrush]

legion999 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Arken wrote...

Tali's evidence is a contrived plot point. It's overly convenient but not universe breaking. It's something that can maintain our suspension of disbelief.

The Lazarus Project was always stupid.

Its near a DEM...but not quite.

And Homewrolds #2 makes it less so.

But Homeworlds #4 will do the same for the Crucible.

Outside media should not be required to understand or explain what's in the game.

However, its part of the story whether you like it or not.

[naes1984]

Before you start a thread about a deus ex machina, actually look up what it means and make sure you understand it.
There is a difference between a central plot conceit (i.e Reapers, Mass Effect fields, element 0)
Macguffins (Tali's evidence, briefcase in Pulp Fiction)
and
Deus ex Machina (the Catalyst using magic to solve everything)

[legion999]

txgoldrush wrote...

legion999 wrote...
Outside media should not be required to understand or explain what's in the game.

However, its part of the story whether you like it or not.

Yep and that's a failure on Biowares part.

[NoUserNameHere]

txgoldrush wrote...



Both suggest a master however.

"once, and poorly." 

Rannoch Destroyer really only said "the cycle demands it!" and "robots and people will fight each other!' in a blunt manner. Or did I miss the part where he said "our boss  demands that all organics be culled. " Eh? 

[txgoldrush]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I agree that the Crucible/Catalyst criticism is off-base, I believe DEM refers to situations where the main plot issue is resolved by it. So I don't think your examples fit, either.

Vigils file definitely does solve a huge problem, it overrides the Citadel controls to prevent Soverign from taking over....handed to Shep in a DEM fashion.

And Lazarus Project solves that death problem

You still have to kill Sovereign, though. If Vigil had short-circuited Sovereign that would have been a better example, I think. The Lazarus Project didn't defeat the Collectors.

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

The Planet sending reinforcements in Avatar counts as this kind of DEM. 

Vigil is an exposition fairy. What does he do to save the day, again? Provide context? What a cop-out, amiright? 

If Starbrat had been a dumb VI that explained the Crucible to you, DEM wouldn't be a problem. EDI or Avina would've been better suited for the roll, but whatever. It's his 'Hey there, turns out the Citadel is Reaper-God!' tweeeeeest that brings the obnoxious stench of Deus Ex Machina into the narrative, here. 

Once again, its not Vigil, but the data file thats the DEM. That data file that OVERRIDES the Citadel controls and opens the arms for the fleet. Did you pay attention?

Face it, the ending was set up throiughout the story, there is no DEM here. The Catalyst role was defined by the game well before the ending.

[CronoDragoon]

txgoldrush wrote...

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

I'm going on the original coinage of the word, which was used by Horace to scold poets for using a god in the machine to solve their plots. If the usage has changed then I wasn't aware of it, and fair enough.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 14 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[txgoldrush]

naes1984 wrote...

Before you start a thread about a deus ex machina, actually look up what it means and make sure you understand it.
There is a difference between a central plot conceit (i.e Reapers, Mass Effect fields, element 0)
Macguffins (Tali's evidence, briefcase in Pulp Fiction)
and
Deus ex Machina (the Catalyst using magic to solve everything)

Nope....it is you that needs to look it up.

Once again, the Catalyst role was defined well before the ending as the key part of the Crucible.

He would only be a DEM if this was NOT the case, but it is.

[naes1984]

txgoldrush wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Before you start a thread about a deus ex machina, actually look up what it means and make sure you understand it.
There is a difference between a central plot conceit (i.e Reapers, Mass Effect fields, element 0)
Macguffins (Tali's evidence, briefcase in Pulp Fiction)
and
Deus ex Machina (the Catalyst using magic to solve everything)

Nope....it is you that needs to look it up.

Once again, the Catalyst role was defined well before the ending as the key part of the Crucible.

He would only be a DEM if this was NOT the case, but it is.

No he wasn't established as a magic little boy.

[txgoldrush]

naes1984 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

naes1984 wrote...

Before you start a thread about a deus ex machina, actually look up what it means and make sure you understand it.
There is a difference between a central plot conceit (i.e Reapers, Mass Effect fields, element 0)
Macguffins (Tali's evidence, briefcase in Pulp Fiction)
and
Deus ex Machina (the Catalyst using magic to solve everything)

Nope....it is you that needs to look it up.

Once again, the Catalyst role was defined well before the ending as the key part of the Crucible.

He would only be a DEM if this was NOT the case, but it is.

No he wasn't established as a magic little boy.

Why does he have to be?

The fact is that his role was defined well before the end...it doesn't matter what it is other than the role.

[NoUserNameHere]

txgoldrush wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I agree that the Crucible/Catalyst criticism is off-base, I believe DEM refers to situations where the main plot issue is resolved by it. So I don't think your examples fit, either.

Vigils file definitely does solve a huge problem, it overrides the Citadel controls to prevent Soverign from taking over....handed to Shep in a DEM fashion.

And Lazarus Project solves that death problem

You still have to kill Sovereign, though. If Vigil had short-circuited Sovereign that would have been a better example, I think. The Lazarus Project didn't defeat the Collectors.

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

The Planet sending reinforcements in Avatar counts as this kind of DEM. 

Vigil is an exposition fairy. What does he do to save the day, again? Provide context? What a cop-out, amiright? 

If Starbrat had been a dumb VI that explained the Crucible to you, DEM wouldn't be a problem. EDI or Avina would've been better suited for the roll, but whatever. It's his 'Hey there, turns out the Citadel is Reaper-God!' tweeeeeest that brings the obnoxious stench of Deus Ex Machina into the narrative, here. 

Once again, its not Vigil, but the data file thats the DEM. That data file that OVERRIDES the Citadel controls and opens the arms for the fleet. Did you pay attention?

Face it, the ending was set up throiughout the story, there is no DEM here. The Catalyst role was defined by the game well before the ending.

Uh, nope. The data file is tied to the plot with the Conduit. We've known about the Conduit since an hour or two into the game. Alone, this file solves a problem the specifics of which we didn't even know existed until that same conversation with Vigil, one that won't come into play for an hour or so. It's not like Shepard was totally going to lose... riiiiight up until the Protehan VI comes from nowhere to save the day. 

This data file wasn't even put forth as an example of a Deus Ex until after the ME3 ending firestorm. People have been going back through the narrative, finding every plot point and rattling off all concievable ways in which they could have been foreshadowed more effectively. This does not make a DEM. 


That you think the Catalyst was fleshed out at any point before the last five minutes proves that you aparantly know more than Shepard does. S/he even says 'I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst." -- at no point was Shep prepared to meet the collective will of all Reapers. 

[D24O]

legion999 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

legion999 wrote...
Outside media should not be required to understand or explain what's in the game.

However, its part of the story whether you like it or not.

Yep and that's a failure on Biowares part.

[EnvyTB075]

OP is so incredibly wrong on so many levels its not even funny, just sad.

[txgoldrush]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I agree that the Crucible/Catalyst criticism is off-base, I believe DEM refers to situations where the main plot issue is resolved by it. So I don't think your examples fit, either.

Vigils file definitely does solve a huge problem, it overrides the Citadel controls to prevent Soverign from taking over....handed to Shep in a DEM fashion.

And Lazarus Project solves that death problem

You still have to kill Sovereign, though. If Vigil had short-circuited Sovereign that would have been a better example, I think. The Lazarus Project didn't defeat the Collectors.

A DEM does not have to solve the main problem, it can also be used to solve just situational problems as well.

Life of Brian has an example...a comic one.

The Planet sending reinforcements in Avatar counts as this kind of DEM. 

Vigil is an exposition fairy. What does he do to save the day, again? Provide context? What a cop-out, amiright? 

If Starbrat had been a dumb VI that explained the Crucible to you, DEM wouldn't be a problem. EDI or Avina would've been better suited for the roll, but whatever. It's his 'Hey there, turns out the Citadel is Reaper-God!' tweeeeeest that brings the obnoxious stench of Deus Ex Machina into the narrative, here. 

Once again, its not Vigil, but the data file thats the DEM. That data file that OVERRIDES the Citadel controls and opens the arms for the fleet. Did you pay attention?

Face it, the ending was set up throiughout the story, there is no DEM here. The Catalyst role was defined by the game well before the ending.

Uh, nope. The data file is tied to the plot with the Conduit. We've known about the Conduit since an hour or two into the game. Alone, this file solves a problem the specifics of which we didn't even know existed until that same conversation with Vigil, one that won't come into play for an hour or so. It's not like Shepard was totally going to lose... riiiiight up until the Protehan VI comes from nowhere to save the day. 

This data file wasn't even put forth as an example of a Deus Ex until after the ME3 ending firestorm. People have been going back through the narrative, finding every plot point and rattling off all concievable ways in which they could have been foreshadowed more effectively. This does not make a DEM. 


That you think the Catalyst was fleshed out at any point before the last five minutes proves that you aparantly know more than Shepard does. S/he even says 'I thought the Citadel was the Catalyst." -- at no point was Shep prepared to meet the collective will of all Reapers. 

The conduit was defined in the plot before then, but NOT the data file that overrides the Citadel controls...that sthe difference.

Once again, the ROLE of the Catalyst WAS DEFINED earlier in the game but finding about WHAT IT IS is a PLOT TWIST . This does not make it a DEM.