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[Han Shot First]

I hated the original endings to Mass Effect 3.

With that now of the way, the OP is absolutely right about Vigil being a deus ex machina as well. No one paid much attention to it however because the ending of Mass Effect 1 was fairly epic.

[ld1449]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

Nah gotta dissagree. DBZ's death was like going to Canada. Shepard's death took a monumental effort to bring him back and an unbelievable ammount of resources. They most likely wouldn't be able to pull it off again without someone willing to throw an absurd amount of money at the problem like TIM was

[txgoldrush]

Nyxeris wrote...

The Lazarus Project is not a Deus Ex Machina, it's an extremely important plot point. The only thing it resolves is Shepard's death, which probably could have not been implemented in the first place.

The Crucible's a DEM because it conviently pops up in a place that people had been researching for years already at exactly the right time. And what is it that they find? A Reaper off-switch. It had no foreshadowing in the slightest. You're going to sit there and say that this isn't a DEM?

And is the Lazarus Project foreshadowed? Its not.

And once again, a DEM only has to solve A problem, not the main problem of the narrative. Resurrecting the protagonist is a huge problem abruptly solved. It is by definition a DEM, especially how it was used. Tell me how ME2 resurrects Shepard wasn't convienant.

And do not completely ignore the fact that the right person found the right object at the right time, however on a mission to do such a thing. Nevermind the Crucible founding will be explained in an upcoming comic.

[MegaSovereign]

CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

So....it was totally awesome?

No because it took away any emotional impact of Shepard dying if he comes back to life upgraded with cybernetics.

[CuseGirl]

txgoldrush wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
A person relaying information in ME1 does not equal "magical space device that solves everything in one fell swoop." Sorry, but it just doesn't. The Crucible is a DEM. No question.

I don't see how the Crucible is a DEM. I-Win buttons are not automatically DEMs.

The Crucible isn't a DEM, it's a MacGuffin. The Catalyst and the choices (which arise from the CITADEL, not the Crucible) form the DEM.

But the established fact is that before this, its established that the Catalyst is key to the Crucible...which makes it by definition, not a DEM.

Is it close? Very. There is no doubt about it, but it misses the definition as well because they did define the Catalyst as key to stopping the Reapers. Its still a MacGuffin.

Hell, a huge fallacy is that Deus Ex Machinas are always bad. They actually aren't, its how they are used. For example, Raiders of the Lost Ark definitely uses one effectively. Its how its set up.

Wait what? How does the Catalyst being key to the Crucible make it not a DEM? There is nothing before the elevator that tells the player you will probably have a conversation with an AI who will present you choices on how to use the Crucible. NOTHING.

I'm willing to bet money that everyone who played the ending the first time thought they would activate the Crucible from the same console they used to open the Citadel arms with. And when they saw Shep fall on the ground, they thought the game was over (for that split second at least).

It's not that Deus Ex Machinas are always bad, it's just that it's a sign of poor planning or NO planning at all. And that's probably what disappoints Bioware fans so much with this ordeal. Casey and Mac literally didn't know what they were doing and didn't allow someone else who knew better to do a better job.

[MegaSovereign]

ld1449 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

Nah gotta dissagree. DBZ's death was like going to Canada. Shepard's death took a monumental effort to bring him back and an unbelievable ammount of resources. They most likely wouldn't be able to pull it off again without someone willing to throw an absurd amount of money at the problem like TIM was

TIM uses 1 year worth of salary to bring back a person to life.

The Eternal Dragon grants one wish per year and can bring people back to life.

TIM=Eternal Dragon.

Don't question my art.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[D24O]

MegaSovereign wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

So....it was totally awesome?

No because it took away any emotional impact of Shepard dying if he comes back to life upgraded with cybernetics.

Shepard dying int he beginning was kind of a waste. Maybe they'd have been better off having him live, and then 2 years later being approached by TIM with info on the collectors, or something.

[CronoDragoon]

MegaSovereign wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

So....it was totally awesome?

No because it took away any emotional impact of Shepard dying if he comes back to life upgraded with cybernetics.

I was just joking, but now I have to get cereal. Are we not counting any of the emotion we get to see when Shepard sees all his crew again? What about LotsB's romance scenes for a romanced Liara? We actually got to see some of the emotional impact of both Shepard's death and his reappearance. It's not like his death at the beginning of ME2 was the proper conclusion to a character arc or something.

Not to mention awesome Garrus jokes like "The Collectors killed you once, and all that did was ****** you off."

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 14 juillet 2012 - 01:32 .

[txgoldrush]

Han Shot First wrote...

I hated the original endings to Mass Effect 3.

With that now of the way, the OP is absolutely right about Vigil being a deus ex machina as well. No one paid much attention to it however because the ending of Mass Effect 1 was fairly epic.

I did not like the original ending either because of execution reasons, not because it had the Catalyst.

I do think they hid the DEM well in ME1. My debate is that it is one, not if its good or bad.

[txgoldrush]

D24O wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard dying and coming back to life cheapened death in the Mass Effect universe.

Reminded me of Dragon Ball Z.

So....it was totally awesome?

No because it took away any emotional impact of Shepard dying if he comes back to life upgraded with cybernetics.

Shepard dying int he beginning was kind of a waste. Maybe they'd have been better off having him live, and then 2 years later being approached by TIM with info on the collectors, or something.

No, he should have been seriously injured and captured by Cerberus instead, held to recover for two years.

[AsheraII]

jules_vern18 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

jules_vern18 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously...the hypocrisy is atrocious. Hell, the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't even DEMs.

However, Vigils Data File in ME1 and the Lazarus Project in ME2 ARE Deus Ex Machinas.

Hell, Tali's evidence is pretty close to one as well for ME1. How convienant she pops up and solves the problem.

Pure textbook definition DEM.

Which the Crucible and the Catalyst doesn't fall into due to them being fleshed out and even foreshadowed.

From Merriam-Webster

Deus Ex Machina: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that
appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a
contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.

Definition of Contrived:  having an unnatural or false appearance or quality : artificial, labored <a contrived plot>

So, let's go through your examples. 
1.  Vigil's Data.  Given that ME1 was largely about uncovering prothean secrets and that the character motivations are based on prothean data, this story mechanic fails the test of being contrived.  It did not appear "out of left field" per se and fit within the context of the story.  Many of your examples simply list events that weren't foreshadowed - if that were an adequate test, any surprise in any story could be considered Deus Ex Machina.

2.  The Lazarus project did not appear suddenly and unexpectedly to provide a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.  It was also not contrived - Lazarus was fully fleshed out as ME2 (and ME3) went on.  Even if it were an example of Deus Ex, it can't be held on the same level as the catalyst as it only provided an explanation for Shepard's survival and did not resolve a central conflict.

3.  Tali's information is an example of serendipity, not Deus Ex Machina.  The reasons behind her information-gathering were plausable and explained in a satisfactory manner (not contrived), as were the reasons that Shep and crew encountered her.  Happy coincidence yes, Deus Ex Machina no.

4.  The catalyst as a character is not provided adequate foreshadowing, nor is he particularly well fleshed-out.  But even if the catalyst himself is not an example of Deus Ex Machina, his technology and ability to shape the entire galaxy in an instant certainly are.

1. However, the method of delivery is contrived in that the AI pulls Shepard from the chase and hands it to him. It is not found, and it does come out contrived.

2. No it did, fleshing it out after the DEM doesn't change it a bit. It was a very poorly thought out reset device to boot. Fleshing it out afterward is simply a trick to hide the DEM.

3. Never called this DEM...close but no DEM.

4. However, he was foreshadowed, by Vendetta, when he talks about the Reapers being servants to a master. It was alo a plot twist, so foreshadowing too heavily would ruin it. However, he and his motives were foreshadowed. Nevermind once again, the role is defined.

Meh, debatable. I would argue that 1. is again an example of serendipity and was structured the way it was for story flow, but that's ok.  As for the "master" of the reapers, yes - he was foreshadowed in a single line of dialogue.  His lore-breaking technology (the implement of the DEM) is both contrived and not foreshadowed whatsoever.

Long story short: if you can tell me how a magical device that can insert computer chips into every person, leaf, honey-badger, etc. in the galaxy via space beam was foreshadowed and not contrived, I'll happily concede that the ending was not DEM.

It's both foreshadowed AND contrived. The crucible was built even though nobody had even the slightest clue what it did exactly. It's the key given at the start of the story but never telling what was behind the door the key was made for. In fairytales it'd be the riches beyond measure for the poor boy opening it. In a horror movie it's the magical shard of the holy grail to drive the evil spirit out of the human it controls. They're not Deus Ex Machina. They're all foreshadowed, with the gift of the key at the start of the movie, though in a most illusive way.

[Zardoc]

txgoldrush wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

You're right, the Catalyst is in fact not a Deus ex Machina. He's a Diabolus ex Machina. You're wrong about the Crucible though. Then again, you're a well known troll, so who cares what you think.

Wrong again....the third dream can foreshadow the fate of Shepard an da couple of characters tell Shep that the galaxy will change forever after this is over.

Wow, excellent foreshadowing. By that logic, some random character telling me something is going to happen sometime and somewhere can be considered foreshadowing. Because that is basically the amount of foreshadowing present in ME3. Try harder please.

[D24O]

[quote]txgoldrush wrote...

Shepard dying int he beginning was kind of a waste. Maybe they'd have been better off having him live, and then 2 years later being approached by TIM with info on the collectors, or something.

[/quote]

No, he should have been seriously injured and captured by Cerberus instead, held to recover for two years.[/quote]
The idea isn't really well thought out because it doesn't matter. What's done is done, and I was able to suspend my disbelief because there was still a game to play.

[txgoldrush]

CuseGirl wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Gallifreya wrote...
A person relaying information in ME1 does not equal "magical space device that solves everything in one fell swoop." Sorry, but it just doesn't. The Crucible is a DEM. No question.

I don't see how the Crucible is a DEM. I-Win buttons are not automatically DEMs.

The Crucible isn't a DEM, it's a MacGuffin. The Catalyst and the choices (which arise from the CITADEL, not the Crucible) form the DEM.

But the established fact is that before this, its established that the Catalyst is key to the Crucible...which makes it by definition, not a DEM.

Is it close? Very. There is no doubt about it, but it misses the definition as well because they did define the Catalyst as key to stopping the Reapers. Its still a MacGuffin.

Hell, a huge fallacy is that Deus Ex Machinas are always bad. They actually aren't, its how they are used. For example, Raiders of the Lost Ark definitely uses one effectively. Its how its set up.

Wait what? How does the Catalyst being key to the Crucible make it not a DEM? There is nothing before the elevator that tells the player you will probably have a conversation with an AI who will present you choices on how to use the Crucible. NOTHING.

I'm willing to bet money that everyone who played the ending the first time thought they would activate the Crucible from the same console they used to open the Citadel arms with. And when they saw Shep fall on the ground, they thought the game was over (for that split second at least).

It's not that Deus Ex Machinas are always bad, it's just that it's a sign of poor planning or NO planning at all. And that's probably what disappoints Bioware fans so much with this ordeal. Casey and Mac literally didn't know what they were doing and didn't allow someone else who knew better to do a better job.

The fact of the matter is that the Crucible and the Catalyst were key to stopping the Reapers, which with the ending, it was true all along. While the Catalyst was a huge plot twist...the role never changed.

Even despite the choices, the Reapers are stopped by connecting these MacGuffins together.

And no, the ending was planned. The three endings represent three positions throughout the game, maybe the series.

[MegaSovereign]

The Crucible being a DEM is debatable (though I usually argue it isn't since it is introduced naturally in the narrative), but how is the Catalyst a DEM?

Post-EC and even Pre-EC, the Catalyst merely explains the Reapers' purpose and tells you what the Crucible can do. It's not like he waves his magic wand and poof goes the Reapers. From my understanding plot devices are only DEMs whenever they are introduced for the very purpose of solving an unsolvable problem. The Catalyst AI didn't need to exist at all for there to be a conclusion to the narrative...In fact EDI or some other generic VI could have simply told Shepard how and what the Crucible does just fine.

[txgoldrush]

Vox Draco wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Star Trek is notorious for Deus Ex Machinas....and DS9 "Sacrifice of Angels" is one of the worst examples. Poor Dukat.

"Sacrifice of angels"...hmm...that's the one where DS9 is retaken?

And the wormhole-entities, that are established as living in and controlling the wormhole since the pilot-episode, and whose link to Bajor and the Emmissary is explored throughout many epsiodes príor, and whose special interest in Sisko's well-being is foreshadowed here and resolved very much later..., are shutting down the wormhole and wiping out a fleet within their very own domain to prevent the Dominion from killing Sisko and threatening Bajor? That's that episode, right?

Yeah...that came so much out of nowhere and out of the blue...for someone who hadn't watched the epsiodes prior, I guess...

Yes that episode...and it was criticized for using DEM.

Really, while DS9 is my fave Trek series, the Prophets were a series weakness. Of all the accusations of "space Magic" for ME....this reeks of it. And they could not hide it with technobabble.

[ragecage559]

Wiki can solve everyones problems

A deus ex machina ( /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/ day-əs eks mah-kee-nə;[1] Latin: "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Me thinks Mass Effect had that covered. DEM it is.

nb4 wiki lies

[CuseGirl]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Crucible being a DEM is debatable (though I usually argue it isn't since it is introduced naturally in the narrative), but how is the Catalyst a DEM?

Post-EC and even Pre-EC, the Catalyst merely explains the Reapers' purpose and tells you what the Crucible can do. It's not like he waves his magic wand and poof goes the Reapers. From my understanding plot devices are only DEMs whenever they are introduced for the very purpose of solving an unsolvable problem. The Catalyst AI didn't need to exist at all for there to be a conclusion to the narrative...In fact EDI or some other generic VI could have simply told Shepard how and what the Crucible does just fine.

You can only make the assertion in your last sentence if you believe the ending choices come from the Crucible itself. And the Catalyst says "the Crucible is merely a power source". The ending choices are (riduculously) on the Citadel itself. And no one in the galaxy knew that. So yea, the Catalyst/Starchild is a DEM because he's the one who gives Shepard access/permission to use those controls.

[Eluril]

One could argue that anything related to ME's story is a Deus Ex Machina. Why for example does it happen to be our cycle (the one we are playing in and that includes humans) that finally reaches the point of beating the Reapers? Why did our cycle come immediately after the Protheans who were the first ones to severely delay the Reapers invasion?
Why is our character suddenly the best human soldier?

Because there wouldn't be a story otherwise.

[MegaSovereign]

CuseGirl wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Crucible being a DEM is debatable (though I usually argue it isn't since it is introduced naturally in the narrative), but how is the Catalyst a DEM?

Post-EC and even Pre-EC, the Catalyst merely explains the Reapers' purpose and tells you what the Crucible can do. It's not like he waves his magic wand and poof goes the Reapers. From my understanding plot devices are only DEMs whenever they are introduced for the very purpose of solving an unsolvable problem. The Catalyst AI didn't need to exist at all for there to be a conclusion to the narrative...In fact EDI or some other generic VI could have simply told Shepard how and what the Crucible does just fine.

You can only make the assertion in your last sentence if you believe the ending choices come from the Crucible itself. And the Catalyst says "the Crucible is merely a power source". The ending choices are (riduculously) on the Citadel itself. And no one in the galaxy knew that. So yea, the Catalyst/Starchild is a DEM because he's the one who gives Shepard access/permission to use those controls.

The Citadel is the trigger, the Crucible is the power source.

The creators of the Crucible designed it with the Citadel in mind, I don't understand how this is a ridiculous concept? 

You can argue the logistics of the Crucible all day, it still doesn't change the fact that the Catalyst isn't actually needed to move the plot along.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously...the hypocrisy is atrocious. Hell, the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't even DEMs.

However, Vigils Data File in ME1 and the Lazarus Project in ME2 ARE Deus Ex Machinas.

Hell, Tali's evidence is pretty close to one as well for ME1. How convienant she pops up and solves the problem.

Pure textbook definition DEM.

Which the Crucible and the Catalyst doesn't fall into due to them being fleshed out and even foreshadowed.

A deus ex machina is a sudden, unexpected, and/or contrived resolution to a a story, leading to an anticlimactic ending.

None of the things you listed resolved the plots in their respective games. Therefore, they are not deus ex machinas.

Try harder.

[Applepie_Svk]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously...the hypocrisy is atrocious. Hell, the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't even DEMs.

However, Vigils Data File in ME1 and the Lazarus Project in ME2 ARE Deus Ex Machinas.

Hell, Tali's evidence is pretty close to one as well for ME1. How convienant she pops up and solves the problem.

Pure textbook definition DEM.

Which the Crucible and the Catalyst doesn't fall into due to them being fleshed out and even foreshadowed.

A deus ex machina is a sudden, unexpected, and/or contrived resolution to a a story, leading to an anticlimactic ending.

None of the things you listed resolved the plots in their respective games. Therefore, they are not deus ex machinas.

Try harder.

It would be too artistic... to think twice than posting that thread here on forum

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 14 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .

[dreman9999]

NoUserNameHere wrote...



Vigil's data file was a copy of what the Protheans developed alongside the Conduit -- which we've known about the entire game.
 

No it was  not learnED earlier at all. It came up only at the end of ME1.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Seriously...the hypocrisy is atrocious. Hell, the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't even DEMs.

However, Vigils Data File in ME1 and the Lazarus Project in ME2 ARE Deus Ex Machinas.

Hell, Tali's evidence is pretty close to one as well for ME1. How convienant she pops up and solves the problem.

Pure textbook definition DEM.

Which the Crucible and the Catalyst doesn't fall into due to them being fleshed out and even foreshadowed.

A deus ex machina is a sudden, unexpected, and/or contrived resolution to a a story, leading to an anticlimactic ending.

None of the things you listed resolved the plots in their respective games. Therefore, they are not deus ex machinas.

Try harder.

No your wrong with the defintion...
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 

deus ex machina :
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Tali with the data instageting Saren is  
deus ex machina.
The star child is not being that the concepts of control and destory with the crucible is well in the consepts of the story. He solves nothing in the plot.
The crucible is not one being it was hinted at in LOTSB.

Synthesis is the deux ex.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
No your wrong with the defintion...
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 

deus ex machina :
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Tali with the data instageting Saren is  
deus ex machina.
The star child is not being that the concepts of control and destory with the crucible is well in the consepts of the story. He solves nothing in the plot.
The crucible is not one being it was hinted at in LOTSB.

Synthesis is the deux ex.

Tali's data isn't contrived.

Merriam Webster on contrived...
having an unnatural or false appearance or quality

The data has none of these qualites.

The Catalyst literally brings you up to him, hands you the solutions to the plot, and says use them.
The Cruicible is the plot device.
The Catalyst is the Deus Ex Machina
The endings are BS.