435 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

A deus ex machina (god out of the machine) is a literary term which is used when a certain character or object appears at the last part of the story and solves the problems that have been established throughout the story.

The catalyst does each of these. The lazarus project and vigil's data do not.

Modifié par estebanus, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:39 .

[dreman9999]

estebanus wrote...

A deus ex machina (god out of the machine) is a literary term which is used when a certain character or object appears at the last part of the story and solves the problems that have been established throughout the story.

The catalyst does each of these. The lazarus project and vigil's data do not.

1. Use the real defination of deux ex...
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 


That does not mean it comes at the end of the story only. It comes when ever the main characters in the story have any difficult problem.

And the catalyst doesn't. It does not solve anything. It add more things to the problem.

[chemiclord]

I'm all on board with acknowledging that neither ME1 or ME2 are exactly narrative masterpieces, and that yes, a lot of the love for those two games are the result of nostalgia and rose-colored glasses by fans bitter over how ME3 ended.

None of that, however, means that how ME3 played out was necessarily good.

[dreman9999]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No your wrong with the defintion...
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 

deus ex machina :
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Tali with the data instageting Saren is  
deus ex machina.
The star child is not being that the concepts of control and destory with the crucible is well in the consepts of the story. He solves nothing in the plot.
The crucible is not one being it was hinted at in LOTSB.

Synthesis is the deux ex.

Tali's data isn't contrived.

Merriam Webster on contrived...
having an unnatural or false appearance or quality

The data has none of these qualites.

The Catalyst literally brings you up to him, hands you the solutions to the plot, and says use them.
The Cruicible is the plot device.
The Catalyst is the Deus Ex Machina
The endings are BS.

1. Tali's data give you the allowans to go after Saren. That info was the only thing need for the council to suspect Saren. And She and it just happen to come out of the blue just as we need it.
 It's a deus ex.

2.The salution of the plot was given to the player at the begining of the game, The catalyst just allows the player to us it. He is not giving anything. He added more problems to the problem by giving the cons of control and destroy.
Your not understand what the deus ex is.

[dreman9999]

chemiclord wrote...

I'm all on board with acknowledging that neither ME1 or ME2 are exactly narrative masterpieces, and that yes, a lot of the love for those two games are the result of nostalgia and rose-colored glasses by fans bitter over how ME3 ended.

None of that, however, means that how ME3 played out was necessarily good.

But the catalystis not the deux ex. It solves nothing.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Let's just formally establish right now that the series has long been filled with contrivances and other poorly handled plot devices. ME had glaring consistency errors and was reliant on the moron premise in regards to Sovvie. ME2 had the Lazarus Project and the Human Reaper. ME3 had the establishment of the Crucible and the Cerberus coup.

The writing has never been all that great; it's just dressed nicely.

EDIT: ME3 was also reliant on the moron premise.

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:53 .

[Kamfrenchie]

Han Shot First wrote...

I hated the original endings to Mass Effect 3.

With that now of the way, the OP is absolutely right about Vigil being a deus ex machina as well. No one paid much attention to it however because the ending of Mass Effect 1 was fairly epic.

NO. Vigil merely explains why sovereign and saren are acting the way they do. As or the data, you could just drop it and have a character hack the control panel.

It's as if in a war story, the hero notices the ennemy are making a detour to reach their destiation, and thn meets  friendly soldier telling him the min road is fortified/mined

Also, another definition

http://tvtropes.org/...n/DeusExMachina

Whether or not the crucible and the catalyst are technically DEM doesn't matter that much, they are ass pulls and horrible writing in the end.

ME1 had some contrived coincidence (tali) but nothing like a DEM afaik.

Project lazarus was just bad, there ws no need to have shepard killed, cerberus could hav just either approached him, or have been followng him cloely nd savd him after the collector attack and before he went splat on the planet.
Shep fall into coma for a while, and voila. Lazaru is just entirely unnecessary.

[Iakus]

Ad hominem in the title.

You have already lost

[txgoldrush]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
No your wrong with the defintion...
http://www.merriam-w...deus ex machina 

deus ex machina :
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty 

Tali with the data instageting Saren is  
deus ex machina.
The star child is not being that the concepts of control and destory with the crucible is well in the consepts of the story. He solves nothing in the plot.
The crucible is not one being it was hinted at in LOTSB.

Synthesis is the deux ex.

Tali's data isn't contrived.

Merriam Webster on contrived...
having an unnatural or false appearance or quality

The data has none of these qualites.

The Catalyst literally brings you up to him, hands you the solutions to the plot, and says use them.
The Cruicible is the plot device.
The Catalyst is the Deus Ex Machina
The endings are BS.

1. Tali's data give you the allowans to go after Saren. That info was the only thing need for the council to suspect Saren. And She and it just happen to come out of the blue just as we need it.
 It's a deus ex.

2.The salution of the plot was given to the player at the begining of the game, The catalyst just allows the player to us it. He is not giving anything. He added more problems to the problem by giving the cons of control and destroy.
Your not understand what the deus ex is.

This and nevermind the Crucible gave the Catalyst new variables and new possibilties, making Shepard have an impact on the Catalyst...making an even LESS case of a Deus Ex Machina.

[xsdob]

How does the conduit send the mako through the citadels walls?

[txgoldrush]

Nevermind how does Joker leave Shep behind on Ilos? Does he know what the Conduit does?

[Conniving_Eagle]

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

This, this, this, this and THIS. SO VERY, VERY HARD.

[dreman9999]

Kamfrenchie wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I hated the original endings to Mass Effect 3.

With that now of the way, the OP is absolutely right about Vigil being a deus ex machina as well. No one paid much attention to it however because the ending of Mass Effect 1 was fairly epic.

NO. Vigil merely explains why sovereign and saren are acting the way they do. As or the data, you could just drop it and have a character hack the control panel.

It's as if in a war story, the hero notices the ennemy are making a detour to reach their destiation, and thn meets  friendly soldier telling him the min road is fortified/mined

Also, another definition

http://tvtropes.org/...n/DeusExMachina

Whether or not the crucible and the catalyst are technically DEM doesn't matter that much, they are ass pulls and horrible writing in the end.

ME1 had some contrived coincidence (tali) but nothing like a DEM afaik.

Project lazarus was just bad, there ws no need to have shepard killed, cerberus could hav just either approached him, or have been followng him cloely nd savd him after the collector attack and before he went splat on the planet.
Shep fall into coma for a while, and voila. Lazaru is just entirely unnecessary.

You need to play ME1 again...

[Dusen]

For one thing, the endings really shook off the rose-colored glasses that many (including myself) have on when playing a video game. Without those glasses it becomes a lot easier to pick apart the game and it's story. The last two games in the series, for the most part, did nothing to disturb that and hence no major complaints were voiced, at least not like ME3.

Also, Vigil's data is a DEM to an extent, but it made sense within the framing of the story since he was a prothean VI, and the prothean's were super-advanced. IMO, it's almost expected that a super advanced ancient race, that's integral to the story, will provide some sort of DEM-like device to move the plot. It was a well-written DEM for that reason and it didn't do much to derail the story.

As for Shepard's death, that was definitely a terrible idea that I for one hated, but it's not really a DEM as it doesn't function to end the conflict nor is it really a focus of the game. If I remember correctly though, there was still a good bit of backlash at that choice. IMO, we got over it because a game-mechanic excuse was provided for it (Bioware was too stupid to figure out an acceptable way to reset one's stats from ME1) and there was a fair amount of explanation for it.

Both the crucible and starbrat are, IMO, just such blatant DEMs (well, their more of a McGuffin/DEM, but anyways) that it's hard to get past even with the afor-mentioned "rose-colored" glasses.

Modifié par Dusen, 14 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[txgoldrush]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

This, this, this, this and THIS. SO VERY, VERY HARD.

Oh boy a bitter ME1 fan who can't handle the truth....

Face it.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Tali's data give you the allowans to go after Saren. That info was the only thing need for the council to suspect Saren. And She and it just happen to come out of the blue just as we need it.
 It's a deus ex.

2.The salution of the plot was given to the player at the begining of the game, The catalyst just allows the player to us it. He is not giving anything. He added more problems to the problem by giving the cons of control and destroy.
Your not understand what the deus ex is.

1. She "didn't come out of the blue". You find out that someone is on the Citadel who might have data on Saren. *insert Shadow Broker and thugs plot here* You then rescue her and in return she gives you the data. The data was recovered by her earlier. Also, it doesn't solve the plot, it helps you move it along. It's a plot point. Vigil's data is a plot device as well. He says "Hey, here's some data to help you." and then he allows you to go along and finish the plot.

2. The Catalyst does allow the player to solve the plot... he brings us "up" to him to pick our choice. Without him and his elevator, we would've died in fron of the console that didn't activate the Cruicible. This is a key feature of DEM's. It solves the plot in an a**pull manner.

Your spelling is atrocious and it is YOU who doesn't understand what a Deus Ex Machine is.

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

This, this, this, this and THIS. SO VERY, VERY HARD.

 

[dreman9999]

Calinstel wrote...

Good Grief! All this bickering when the DEM is staring everyone in the face!

The elevator, that glowy, floaty, platform Shepard falls upon is the DEM!
Shepard him/her self stated "I don't know" meaning he/she did not know what to do and BINGO, the before unknown elevator whisks him/her up to starjar. A solution from nowhere, solves an unsolvable problem. Yep, sounds about right for the damnable elevator.

Argue about this for awhile! The other arguments/discussions are getting boring.
Oh, and just so some peeps have more reason to complain about my silly post; The endings sucked big time and blew story cohesion out the frigging window.

No it doesn't. The catalyst explains the entire reason for this. It solves nothing.

[Ticonderoga117]

xsdob wrote...

How does the conduit send the mako through the citadels walls?

How do Relays send you through planets, asteroids, and other space particles?

I think they may be related.

[Dusen]

You know what, it really doesn't matter what the official literary descriptors are for the crucible and starbrat. I think most of us can agree that the whole idea behind them and their inclusion into ME is terrible anyway you look at it.

EDIT: In the context of ME3 itself, the crucible isn't a Deus Ex McGuffinus, but when placed into the story that links the series together it most certainly becomes one, a very blatant and poorly written one. . . I mean, out of an entire galaxy of planets the plans for the crucible are found, at just the right time too, on the one who's archives have been combed through for over 30 years? That's just poor writing.

Modifié par Dusen, 14 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[o Ventus]

Dusen wrote...

You know what, it really doesn't matter what the official literary descriptors are for the crucible and starbrat. I think most of us can agree that the whole idea behind them and their inclusion into ME is terrible anyway you look at it.

Pretty much.

[Conniving_Eagle]

txgoldrush wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

www.google.com/imgres

This, this, this, this and THIS. SO VERY, VERY HARD.

Oh boy a bitter ME1 fan who can't handle the truth....

Face it.

What?

@Dreman, not my point. Forget it.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Lol OP doesn't even know what a DEM is.