50 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

Ash Wind wrote...

I believe this weak excuse started with the Devs, and was only one of a number of clumsy attempts to excuse the changes made.

As I understand the time line… DAO was completed on the PC 6 to 9 months before it was released and this additional period was used to adapt the game to the PS and Xbox. It was also the period of time that, under EA’s ownership, DA2 quickly went into pre-production. The lead designer on DAO left that position some months before Origin’s release, at least in part, because he didn’t care for the direction that DA2 was going.

DA2’s radical changes were well into production before DAO was even released. They were making changes to systems before Origins sold copy 1. Though the Devs have repeatedly denied this, I think it’s a fair presumption that new owner EA influenced the direction of DA2. I don’t know what their expectations were, but it seems they didn’t think Origins was going to sell well, and new owner EA wanted something that would appeal to a wider audience.

But… Origins took off and carved out a very respectable market share.

It seems odd that they were so taken back by the backlash of the DA2 announcement and subsequent release. You almost feel sorry for the Devs and moderators stuck with the task of defending the mediocrity of DA2 after the quality of DAO. But, they had a job to do, as thankless as it might have been:  towing the company line. 

The excuses were many: The absurd You just wanted DAO:2 - Super Blight; The equally dumb People just fear change (people fear personal change, as consumers, they not only embrace it, they demand it); Confirmation Bias; The delusion that just because something is changed, it automatically means in was improved, etc. etc.

All attempts to rationalize or excuse a simple miscalculation on the part of the developers who began designing changes in line with the new Owners desires before they even knew what they had on their hands. It happens a lot in businesses of all types.

This is what I wanted to say but better writen.

As you said the devs were shocked that there cool new direction was critisized so much that they had to make up an excuse and that was that they had a short development time.

Now that excuse is really grasping at straws, because every bad choice that they made to change in the game was presumably talked about, yet it was still decided to scrap every system from the old game and replace them with mediocre replacements.

Now if there was a short development window you dont scrap everthing from the old game and replace them with all new designs, because that will eat up the time you should be working on the game.

No the reason DA2 was like it was is because someone decided to make a quick cash grab using the simplest designs possible in the shortest time they could.

[Hexoduen]

Imrahil_ wrote...
That's not what the "we want DA:0:2" camp means.  We want the same gameplay as DA:O, but with a whole new story.  Much like how BG2 was the same gameplay as BG1 but with a whole new story..

I couldn't have said it better myself, well put

[Vormaerin]

ianvillan wrote...


No the reason DA2 was like it was is because someone decided to make a quick cash grab using the simplest designs possible in the shortest time they could.

I really don't understand how someone can rationally think this.   The simplest designs possible in the shortest amount of time would have been to reuse the exact engine and art assets from DAO.   That clearly isn't what they did. 

You may not like the changes they made.  But acting like it was the result of some kind of dishonesty or laziness by the developers is both rude and manifestly untrue.  DA2 looks a lot more like a game that didn't get where it was going to than a game where the Devs mailed it in.

Whether they had enough resources and squandered them or were just not given the resources they needed is not something we are in a position to evaluate.  But the idea that they took the path of least resistance to the quickest buck is ludicrous.

[AstraDrakkar]

OK., I hear lots of differing opinions in this thread so i'll throw in my 2 cents. In DAO I felt like i was affecting the world around me. I was the Hero of Ferelden. I felt like i was impacting all of Thedas because of my actions.

In DA2 I was a nobody and I was limited to affecting my own status in one little city. I didn't feel like any of my actions

were having any impact on Thedas as a whole (or even Kirkwall for that matter). The only impact on Thedas was made by a companion who didn't even let me in on his plan, allow me to participate, or stop it. I felt left out of the equation.
 
Short version (Hero of Ferelden v/s Scapegoat of Kirkwall)

Modifié par AstraDrakkar, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Lee80]

Ukki wrote...

I want Dragon Age game with Origins mechanics. Meaning different origins, stat based classes (dual wield etc)., free discussion with companions when ever, where ever plus full customization of companions. I also want full text discussion weather or not it is voiced or not (yes, one person CAN voice all origins). No WoW/anime weapons, armors or characters, seriously. Last but not least Choise & Consequence!!

I don´t necessarily want Origins story copy, thats not my requirement. DA2 would have been fine for me with aforementioned requirements (though the ending could have used seriously more variations).

Quoted because I agreed with this post completely.  

[Vormaerin]

AstraDrakkar wrote...

I felt left out of the equation.
 
Short version (Hero of Ferelden v/s Scapegoat of Kirkwall)

That's a problem with the design of the story, not the scope.  The story wasn't about Hawke, which is fatal for that kind of tale.

But if you have to appoint kings and slay gods to feel important, I suppose there's not a lot of options in terms of the types of stories you'll find acceptable.

[InfinitePaths]

I don't want DAO:2 i want A new DA3.I liked DAO and DA2 story,but i really want DA2 charather models and combat.DAO's charethers were so stiff and all alike.And combat was too slow and not exciting...

[ItsTheTruth]

They wanted to make easy money with a cheap action-RPG for teenagers, while still using the name 'Dragon Age'. Then they turn around and insult DA:O fans who expected a sequel worthy of its name. Just writing "DA:O2" is dumb. If they were so proud of Hawke running in circles in a cave they should have started another franchise built around Hawke, not leech off the far superior Origins to trick Bioware fans into buying an ugly and rushed product.

But don't worry, if DA3 is just like DA2 and you complain, they will tell you: "Well of course it is very similar to DA2, the name is DA3, are you stupid?"

Modifié par ItsTheTruth, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[Urazz]

I rather not see a DA:O2 thank you very much. DA2 was fine for the most part but had some flaws in it that definately hurt it's rating. Bioware seemed to have learned from those mistakes at least with the DLC they released that did show some improvements within the game engine. Some things just couldn't be fixed or improved upon in DA2 so I think DA3 will definately be much better than DA2.

[Cultist]

For me "We want DA:O2" means:
- Refinement of DA:O advantages - DA:O got MANY flaws that should be refined, fixed and tweaked. It's only that DA:O pros were far bigger than cons. Yet problems with combat, crafting and other remained.
- Removal of all abominable DA2 stuff - dialogue wheel, voiced protagonist, lack of choice, linear gameplay, arcade combat, recycled maps, .
- Adding new content, features and enchancing the RPG system - it is not enough to refine what we got, we must carefully add most useful and needed features. The key word here - carefully, as we all saw what happened with DA2.

BioWare should understand that pleasing their "oldtimer" RPG fans and new arcade and jRPG oriented DA2 audience at the same time is impossible. So they must choose one.

[jillabender]

Vormaerin wrote…

You may not like the changes they made.  But acting like it was the result of some kind of dishonesty or laziness by the developers is both rude and manifestly untrue.  DA2 looks a lot more like a game that didn't get where it was going to than a game where the Devs mailed it in.

Even though I prefer DA:O to DA2, I agree with you here – I don't think that the developers intentionally churned out a "lazy" game just to make a quick buck. I'll admit I'm puzzled by the fact that the developers tried to implement so many drastic changes to the DA:O style of storytelling with such a short development period, but I don't think they planned for things to turn out that way.

I have mixed feelings about DA2, partly because I really do think it had great potential – to me, the Legacy DLC offers a glimpse of what the rest of the game might have been like had it featured varied environments with detail and atmosphere, and more varied and tactically designed encounters (without waves of enemies dropping from the sky). I'm hoping to see some of that potential realized in DA3.

Vormaerin wrote…

The story wasn't about Hawke, which is fatal for that kind of tale.

That's an excellent observation, and I completely agree. As I see it, the problem with DA2 wasn't that it tried to tell a more personal kind of story – the problem was that it tried to tell a personal story without making the protagonist feel central to the story. To me, the connection between Hawke's rise to greatness and the Mage/Templar conflict felt tenuous, and neither story felt fleshed out as it should have been.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:24 .

[Raydenos256]

Imrahil_ wrote...

That's not what the "we want DA:0:2" camp means.  We want the same gameplay as DA:O, but with a whole new story.  Much like how BG2 was the same gameplay as BG1 but with a whole new story.

That's exactly what we want, a true sequel to DA: Origins (let it be super blight), not some petty squable between mages and templars.

In short, more DA:origins, less cartoony DA2.

We want the story to be EPIC, about courage and sacrifice. We want the story to be dark, gothic and grim.
We want our lives to mean something and we want to make choices that matter (even if it meant our death).

Modifié par Raydenos256, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[Raydenos256]

Cultist wrote...

For me "We want DA:O2" means:
- Refinement of DA:O advantages - DA:O got MANY flaws that should be refined, fixed and tweaked. It's only that DA:O pros were far bigger than cons. Yet problems with combat, crafting and other remained.
- Removal of all abominable DA2 stuff - dialogue wheel, voiced protagonist, lack of choice, linear gameplay, arcade combat, recycled maps, .
- Adding new content, features and enchancing the RPG system - it is not enough to refine what we got, we must carefully add most useful and needed features. The key word here - carefully, as we all saw what happened with DA2.

BioWare should understand that pleasing their "oldtimer" RPG fans and new arcade and jRPG oriented DA2 audience at the same time is impossible. So they must choose one.

That's preceisely what they should do. Go back to the tried and true working stuff from Origins. I wouldn't have written it better myself.

[PaulSX]

Actually some of us do not want exact same gameplay from DAO. I only want BioWare take the fundamental gameplay elements of DAO such as customizations, varied areas and exploration freedom. Those are the stuff that DA2 lacked but DAO possessed.

[philippe willaume]

Plaintiff wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, I was able to comprehend that well enough when people were tossing the phrase around the first time, so I don't see why you felt the need to explain it to us all like we're children.

DA2 changed extremely little in terms of gameplay, so it's not worth making a fuss about, but I still would not want any of those changes to be reversed.

You may feel they changed "extremely little", but to me and many others the changes were pretty dramatic and broke the game.

Feel however you want. I'm looking at the facts, and the facts are that the number of changes made is small, and their nature is largely superficial, mostly to do with appearance and very little to do with function.

Clearly the game is not "broken". Nothing is preventing people from playing and completing it except their own dislike.

Well that is a bit of the same broad statement in reverse really.

and the end it really depend of what you played in DA:0 and DA:2
I totally agree the DA:2 is an improvement on DA:0 if you played Two mages all the time or probably when you play ultimate builds.
Just as I believed that DA:0 was leagues better than DA:2 if you played sub-optimal build.

Now one of the reason for the suboptimal build is that you can get your char and your companion designed according to what role you wanted to play them and that is not do-able in DA:2 (unless you want to loose the will to live during interminable witling matches).
 
It is aggravated by two main factors. The first one is that anders story is not a well executed one the friendship side as it is on the rivalry and to an extend side with mage is the same.
 Hawke “Orsino why are you going Massey Ferguson on us ?”
O “,all I have dedicated my life  is going to the crapper, look the templar are coming”
H “ what those 3 crumblies, we just did ugly a full legion of them few seconds ago. No reason to get your knickers in a twist. We are winning dude”
 
The other is that your @@%%%/$ companion fell obliged to finish their @@%%%/$ animation before the bring their attention to what you told them to do their @@%%%/$ mintues ago.
 
Yes it is not really a problem if you played ultimate build; I did not really have to get my companion to do anything other than the tactical action and target designation at the start of the fight and potion them once and a while.
But I miss the using the terrain (ie choke points  and the possibility that two specialisation per char/companion offered.
 
phil

[Realmzmaster]

Optimal or ultimate builds are not necessary in any of the DA games. I have played sub-optimal PCs in both of them. I have 8 playthroughs with DAO and ten with DA2. Not one is an optimal or ultimate build. In DA2 I have 6 playthroughs as a rogue. Each one is different. I have a magic resistant rogue, a high constitution rogue, a shadow assassin rogue, a archer assassin rogue, a duelist assassin rogue etc with sub-optimal attributes. All of the playthroughs are complete except the tenth one which I am finishing now.

The same with DAO. All sub-optimal builds. Optimal builds are nice to experiemnt with but completely unnecessary to win.

[bEVEsthda]

jillabender wrote...

Vormaerin wrote…

You may not like the changes they made.  But acting like it was the result of some kind of dishonesty or laziness by the developers is both rude and manifestly untrue.  DA2 looks a lot more like a game that didn't get where it was going to than a game where the Devs mailed it in.

Even though I prefer DA:O to DA2, I agree with you here – I don't think that the developers intentionally churned out a "lazy" game just to make a quick buck. I'll admit I'm puzzled by the fact that the developers tried to implement so many drastic changes to the DA:O style of storytelling with such a short development period, but I don't think they planned for things to turn out that way.

A developer is supposed to have said that a sequel in DA:O style would have been cheaper than DA2.
The drastic restyling gives that rumour at least a degree of credibility.
Anyway, they really must have wanted that restyling, for some reason. And as far as I'm concerned, it was the restyling that ruined the game. Not being "rushed" or anything like that.

[bzombo]

For me, it's not necessarily about getting DAO2. I want DA3 with the best of DAO and DA2 in it. In an interview, this is what Ray Muzyka said DA3 would be, but I doubt his idea of that is the same as mine. Most of the best things come from DAO, in my opinion. I want the interface of Origins, the customization of Origins, the skills, abilities, and specializations of Origins (bring back dual wield warriors!), and the length of Origins. I want the combat speed of DA2 without the exploding bodies. That was dumb. I'm indifferent about voiced protagonist and the dialog wheel. Give me the detail of Origins, meaning less re-use of areas, less fed ex quests, etc. It doesn't have to be a Lord of the Rings type story to be a great game, but it has to matter! Hawke comes from Ferelden. Why does he care the Qunari are in Kirkwall? Just because. This could have been so much more. A plot within the overall plot. Instead, it was chapter 2. What?!

I'm trying to avoid spoilers here, but with what we know about who sets the end of the game in motion with his stupidity, why is there no choice to side with him or with the one we end up fighting no matter what we did all game? All of chapter 3 is building to being on one side or the other. In the end, you're forced into one way. DA2 was a great idea executed poorly.

edit: No leveling weapons either.

Modifié par bzombo, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:23 .

[philippe willaume]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Optimal or ultimate builds are not necessary in any of the DA games. I have played sub-optimal PCs in both of them. I have 8 playthroughs with DAO and ten with DA2. Not one is an optimal or ultimate build. In DA2 I have 6 playthroughs as a rogue. Each one is different. I have a magic resistant rogue, a high constitution rogue, a shadow assassin rogue, a archer assassin rogue, a duelist assassin rogue etc with sub-optimal attributes. All of the playthroughs are complete except the tenth one which I am finishing now.

The same with DAO. All sub-optimal builds. Optimal builds are nice to experiemnt with but completely unnecessary to win.

hello Reamlz
 
Well I beg to differ I really had to go for vanguard berserker base or combat was just whittling to no end.
Repeating the same boring crap until ether I fell from utter bedroom or the boss eventually keeled over.
 
In DA:0 it never felt like that at all.


But I am willing to accept that it might well be a combo of class play style,
To be fair the vanguard berserker is high damage build no so much spiking but with high damage multiplication and increase attack frequency, so whilst IF I am to be honest it was not ultimate as vanguard berserk reaver for example. But I would suspect that your build are probably of the same level of ultimate’s magnitude i.e. I did not use uniquely strength as a dump stat )
 
 
Phil

[Androme]

 All I want is for DA3 to focus on the characters from DA:O and their agenda. And no, DA:O2 sounds absolutely silly.

[Kidd]

philippe willaume wrote...

It is aggravated by two main factors. The first one is that anders story is not a well executed one the friendship side as it is on the rivalry

This is pretty major aside, but I have to ask you what you're smoking =D To me it worked fine on both sides.

My first game was on the friend path with Anders (friendmance, actually). The entire game was all "Anders, you rock. Keep fighting the good fight! Damn, you're so inspiring. Oh yes I agree so much! Anders, go Anders! Wow these things you're doing are awesome. Please don't ever leave my side, I will help you with whatever you want or need. I would do anything to- wait. What? What are you talking about? OHSHI-"

And hey, that was freaking epic to me =) Different strokes ^^

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:46 .

[philippe willaume]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

It is aggravated by two main factors. The first one is that anders story is not a well executed one the friendship side as it is on the rivalry

This is pretty major aside, but I have to ask you what you're smoking =D To me it worked fine on both sides.

My first game was on the friend path with Anders (friendmance, actually). The entire game was all "Anders, you rock. Keep fighting the good fight! Damn, you're so inspiring. Oh yes I agree so much! Anders, go Anders! Wow these things you're doing are awesome. Please don't ever leave my side, I will help you with whatever you want or need. I would do anything to- wait. What? What are you talking about? OHSHI-"

And hey, that was freaking epic to me =) Different strokes ^^

To address you fist question the odd chicha (apple liquorish mix and plain water) and the odd Vegas Raibana.
My grief precisely that, -wait what, what are you talking about.
yeah Hawke your my best fiend ever like dude.

Thanks Anders . Me old china, didn’t you think you over reacted a little about the clergy. I mean don't get me wrong it was worth the butcher but really that was a tad ferocious for little warning.
i understand your emotional and all that, but me old ****, care to give us any insight on what lead you to granny pyrotechnics?

WTF, i would not understand, you are taking the ****** aren't you. i stuck by you like crap on blanket and that is the best you can come up with.....
Anders you will always have problem lifting a body in one part <snip> hence greedy like a pig<snip> Anders do you know what a Nemessis is.

  

[Jerrybnsn]

I was all for a sequel to Origins, but got something else instead. I'm hoping DA3 would be that sequel.

[Xilizhra]

From DA2, please keep: gameplay, companion sexuality, voice acting.
From DAO:... er, probably the DA3 story will be more like O than 2. I don't really care about the graphics either way, but staying with 2 will probably be cheaper now.

[wsandista]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

I was all for a sequel to Origins, but got something else instead. I'm hoping DA3 would be that sequel.

This.

Though I'm willing to bet that DA3 will be very similar to ME3. Refinement of the gameplay found in 2, with a few token throwbacks to the original.