119 réponses à ce sujet

[Revik]

I had trouble with tactics in the beginning but after some trial and error I have gotten it to where I pretty much want it.

Seriously anyone complaining about tactics needs to post their tactics setup and behavior if you want anyone to be able to help you with your problem.

That being said tactics isn't for you to go on full automode.  Tactics are really good at reducing repetive mundane actions like healing, buffing, using opener abilities etc.  Complex choices which require positioning and/or timing are things that tactics are not good especially AoE spells with friendly fire and should be relugated to manual control.

If you notices abilites are on cooldown when you need them take them off your tactics list.  If you notice abilities aren't being used or some actions don't seem to fire look at your tactics list and see if there is something firing preventing from the lower actions from taking effect.  If you have Enemy: Nearest Visibile -> Attack as your first item then you're never going to activate any thing below it because that conditional will almost always be true.

One thing to help yourself out is to play without tactics for awhile and really appraise your own actions.  For instance say you like your archers to fire at anything in range.  This would indicate that you would like them to have aggressive behavior.  Maybe you like to open up battle with a pommel strike you could set this as the first ability you use.  Maybe you like your healer to priorize healing your tank or yourself first you can do this by making it a tactic and slotting it higher.

I would imagine almost always healing is every NPC's top concern.  So this must be represented by having this as your top tactic.  Something like self < 50% health -> use least powerful poultice. 

Tactics can be very powerful if you use them correctly.  Theres almost no reason not to have tactics on as any player even the hardcore micromanager can make things slightly easier by add in a few tactics.

[Sidney]

Silensfurtim wrote...

lol. when I first saw the Tactics menu, I was saddened.

I said to myself, "its official. DAO is infected with consolitis."

...or the game is built to handle a variety of playstyles. For those people with OCD you can twiddle each action all you want and for people who like a more free-flowing experience they get the tactics options.

I think people also assume that something like BG2 was a lot more micromanaged by people than it was, or maybe I'm the oddball. I selected a target and had all my fighters auto-attack it and then cast whatever the mage had left. DOA feels almost exactly like BG2 to me excat, with tactics, I feel like I have more control.

I'd prefer the KoTOR ability to set an action queue to be honest because, for example, I know that Sleep is always followed by Waking Nightmare and Petrify is always followed Stonefist.

[Cuthlan]

Silensfurtim wrote...

lol. when I first saw the Tactics menu, I was saddened.

I said to myself, "its official. DAO is infected with consolitis."

I would have killed for tactics controls like these in the NWN and BG series games.

[Creature 1]

Facts about tactics that will help:

1.  Tactics are not carried out sequentially. 

The character runs through the tactics list until finding a tactic that evaluates as true.  It carries out the order for that tactic and then returns to the top of the list.  Because of this you need to sort tactics by priority.  I put at the very top an order to use a health potion if health is too low (and heal others, if it's a healer), then orders to turn on certain sustained abilities.  Orders for what to do when under certain attacks or when ally or enemy status meets certain criteria follow.   

2.  If you don't have an "enemy:any->attack" order your characters will stand around like idiots. 

Always have a slot at the end for "enemy:any->attack" or the equivalent (attack target of . . .) so at least your characters will be doing something useful if none of their other tactics are valid.  If you end up not having enough slots to fit all of your special directions and this, leave it off but make sure to keep an eye on that character. 

3.  If you want to target mages with extreme prejudice, do not set it to nearest class. 

If there is no mage in the characters line of sight, this will default to nearest enemy, and then Lel just wasted an arrow of slaying on a genlock.  If there is a non-aggravated mage 200 feet away, Zevran will leave the battle to run up to him and bring down more enemies on your head.  Set this to "enemy using attack:magic".  That way only mages actually engaging you in combat will get targeted.  Of course if you want the best chance to get a drop on a mage, you'll have to manually target it, because this tactic won't trigger until the mage starts attacking. 

4.  Some things you just can't do. 

You can't automate coating weapons, you can't automate resurrecting someone.  I'm sure there are other things that just don't work.  If you run into a problem, make sure you're not hitting a tactic query earlier in the list that always returns true (put something after an order to attack the nearest enemy and it will never trigger).  If this isn't the case, either find a different way to achieve the same thing (for example, switch from checking enemy class to checking type of attack) or resign yourself to micromanaging for that situation. 

[Sidney]

Creature 1 wrote...

2.  If you don't have an "enemy:any->attack" order your characters will stand around like idiots. 

Always have a slot at the end for "enemy:any->attack" or the equivalent (attack target of . . .) so at least your characters will be doing something useful if none of their other tactics are valid.  If you end up not having enough slots to fit all of your special directions and this, leave it off but make sure to keep an eye on that character. 

This should not be true, and isn't for me, if you have your behavior as aggressive for melee or ranged for archers and mages.

[Eshme]

What about 1 "Enemy has high armor" "use break armor".

2 "Any enemy" "attack"



Does that mean any enemy which has high armor will never get attacked, because it gets stuck on line 1?

[Sidney]

Eshme wrote...

What about 1 "Enemy has high armor" "use break armor".
2 "Any enemy" "attack"

Does that mean any enemy which has high armor will never get attacked, because it gets stuck on line 1?

No, it will attack the high armor foe and break armor. It will try that again but failing, due to cool down, will then move on to option 2 and attack any foe.

If you reverse them then you will never execute option 2 because Any Enemy: Attack will always read as true and you will always be able to execute it.

If you have Any Enemy:Attack it should be the last option in your tactics menu.

Modifié par Sidney, 17 décembre 2009 - 05:59 .

[Eshme]

Ahh so it also proceeds if an action failed? But the condition was still met?

[TriggerHappy64]

Gecon wrote...
Err ... what "chain of commands" ?

All I remember from KotoR is that the only way to assert your commands where actually executed was to stay on the character in question. The moment you left for another character, the AI took over and could really void any of your commands for much more stupid ones. As it wasnt possible to write own AI scripts, to assign a passive AI script that did nothing on its own, or to disable AI altogether, you where often screwed by the AI.

To make a long list of complains short: KotoRs AI SUCKED BIG TIME (and made me curse loudly while playing, much like the bad waysearch) and DA's AI is certainly better than that (also in respect to waysearch, btw).

Actually, you could queue commands for ever party member and they would cycle through them (I think there was room for 4 or 5) before they would go to a default routine and select their own abilities themselves.  So no, the AI just didn't "take over" and void your commands.  At least then I could sit back and watch the gameplay for a bit instead of pausing every second.

Modifié par TriggerHappy64, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[Rrend]

I didn't read this whole thread, but has anyone considered that when you have a party member selected their tactics are disabled? I can't say for sure, but I'm 90% sure that my party members ignore tactics when I have them selected even if tactics are turned on.

[Creature 1]

Eshme wrote...

Ahh so it also proceeds if an action failed? But the condition was still met?

This seems erratic.  You can activate sustained buffs and they will go on and stay on properly, so the character will proceed past the order to activate the buff during following tactic cycles in that combat.  Special attacks seem to execute fine as well but I need to check if the character will switch targets and attack the new target with an autoattack if the special attack is on cooldown (if Sten sees a petrified enemy I've told him to hit with a critical strike but it's on cooldown, will he leave his target to go attack the new target anyway?)  Coating blades should theoretically work because they should just skip the order if the poison is on cooldown or cannot be applied, but instead they just freeze in combat.  And if you have an order to attack the nearest member of a class and there is none available, that attack will default to the nearest enemy. 

[TriggerHappy64]

Cybercat999 wrote...

TriggerHappy64 wrote...

The endless micromanaging is driving me crazy and makes any of the combat sequences boring, tiresome and not very exciting.  That, and the fact that I have to go through so many story options to get to any action is really destroying the fun for me.  I don't really understand all the good reviews this game is getting.  Sure it's immersive and I do like the lore and the story, but the gameplay has been extremely frustrating.

I am sorry to say but this game is probably not for you then. It is about story and micromanaging, and some of us like it to be just that way. Its not for everyone though, you would probably have more fun playing a FPS.

If you re-read what you quoted, I wrote that I do like the lore and story it's the balance between story and gameplay that I do not like.  Despite my misgivings with the tactics, I'm still continuing to play and who knows, I might figure out a way around some of the problems with the system.

Modifié par TriggerHappy64, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:21 .

[Creature 1]

Sidney wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

2.  If you don't have an "enemy:any->attack" order your characters will stand around like idiots. 

Always have a slot at the end for "enemy:any->attack" or the equivalent (attack target of . . .) so at least your characters will be doing something useful if none of their other tactics are valid.  If you end up not having enough slots to fit all of your special directions and this, leave it off but make sure to keep an eye on that character. 

This should not be true, and isn't for me, if you have your behavior as aggressive for melee or ranged for archers and mages.

I'll check them and make sure I have that set up.  I may have my mages set on the default still, or maybe on defensive since Wynn kept trying to get herself killed running into combat.  

[Dee-Jay]

I also hate the tactics system. It's just a total failure, especially the way it's implented.



While its fine to say Wynn should heal anyone under 50% life, and that she should use fist of stone once a enemy caster starts casting a spell, when it comes to attacking normal enemys the system just falls apart.



Putting situational abilities on a programmable AI routine is fine, but all abilities? That's just plain stupid.



Unless you change the tactics for every 2nd fight, it just ends up being really frustrating.

[Duckman33]

TriggerHappy64 wrote...

An example, I set a character to attack an enemy attacking the main character.  His general behavior is also set to aggressive.  The main character falls unconscious in battle and the character just stops attacking entirely.   He just bloody stands there and watches his party members get butchered one by one unless I order him to attack someone else.

Something to remember, your condition: "attack an enemy attacking the main character" tells the AI to attack whatever mob is attacking the games MAIN Character, not the CONTROLLED character. So, logically what happens when your character dies? No more mobs are attacking him, thus your AI character stands there like an idiot. The rest of your AI characters will do the same thing if you set them up that way. Why? Because, if no more mobs are attacking the MAIN Character (because he's dead), they have no target to attack!

This will also happen, as mentioned earlier in another post if the game switches to that character when the main, or controlled character dies. Then it's YOUR turn to take over controlling that character. The other two will follow
their tactics accordingly as long as their set up correctly.

You say you are using the Aggressive Behavior setting, which should just tell the AI to attack the next nearest enemy. If that's the case, that would tell me it's the behavior that is broken, not the tactics. The bevaviors seem to work just fine for me though.

I personally prefer the Defensive Behavior when using the tactic I discuss below for my tank, so the AI character(s) don't go running off into the hoard of mobs farther down the dungeon just becase they can see them. (The H, or Hold key works well for this too) I've gotten raped a few times because of that. For my mages I used Passive (Wynne & Morrigan). This way they stay close to me, but also they try to stay out of harms way when need be.

Now, if you set the Condition: "Enemy>Target of Party Member>Target of Controlled Party Member" and the Action to: "Attack". Then your tactic will work much better, again, as long as that character isn't the one the game defaults to when the main character dies. Also, If you set this condition/action and place it fairly high in the chain for all your characters, you'll be dropping foes left and right in no time. This does not depend as much on the Agressive Behavior as your setup does. This will also allow you to be able to use the "Nearest Enemy" and the "Self>Surrounded By X amount of Enemies" conditions more effectively.

I've had ~0 problems getting my team to do exactly what I want at least 98% of the time with this set-up. Now I only have to micro manage the really tough fights. If you are having issues getting the AI to do what you want. You need to learn how the tactics system works better then. That's all there is to it.

Modifié par Duckman33, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:50 .

[El-Destructo]

I usually use Target of (characters self) -> Attack, and also with spammable abilities such as Sunder Arms. Another favorite of mine is Enemy Status (grabbing) -> Dirty Fighting/Pommel Strike/Shield Bash.



The advantage, to me, of telling my characters to attack their own target is that I can micro manage all their individual targets in a fight such as if I want a melee boss harassed by an archer for crippling shot while my other dps kills adds. In this way I retain control and they keep to their targets if I want to focus fire just as well.



I dislike most of the other Conditions because they generally lead to my allies scurrying about the battle, perhaps looking for that one guy with high armor to put a sunder armor on just because they feel compelled to do so instead of actually helping to kill things. XD

[Suron]

sleepy__head wrote...

I agree with the OP. I think the fact that we need to spend valueable skill points on Tactics to fix what is essentially a design flaw that the devs didn't bother to fix is a little insulting. Programming good AI is the devs' job, not ours.

while I agree that having to "purchase" tactics slots is stupid and only shows a poor design and lack of them coming up with real skills/talents....this statement is stupid as hell.

We can only make characters do what Bio has already programmed the AI to do....they just give us the option of tailoring the specifics of a characters behavior..which in and of itself is an awesome innovation for RPGs.

There's nothing for them to fix....what the hell do you think all those scripts you can customize come from? Bio programmed them in....we just have control over how they're used and in what order.

think before you spew out garbage.

And to the OP...go play Diablo or some other game with mindless clicking....complaining about dialogue in an RPG is moronic..if all you're looking for is the "action" then an RPG is NOT for you.

The game got the praise it deserves...you don't care for it..that's all fine and good..but that's your failing not Bio's...Bio set out to make an RPG..not a Diablo or Modern Warfare clone.

[Suron]

Duckman33 wrote...

You say you are using the Aggressive Behavior setting, which should just tell the AI to attack the next nearest enemy. If that's the case, that would tell me it's the behavior that is broken, not the tactics. The bevaviors seem to work just fine for me though.

No the behavior isn't broken..as you stated yourself...it's his tactics...read the description of the behaviors...tactics are EXECUTED FIRST....so if you have a tactic set up...ie Attack Target of Main Character...but the Main Character is dead....so even though they're set to Aggressive they're still following that tactic..which is telling them there's nothing to attack so they just stand there.

Also Tactics are executed in order...

so you gotta make sure a higher lvl tactic isn't preventing ones further down the list from happening

example

a lot of poeple seem to have healers not healing or characters not drinking potions..PROBABLY because of something like this;

1: Enemy - Nearest Visible - Attack
2: Self - Health > 25% - Use Lowest Health Poultice

means that AS LONG AS THERE'S AN ENEMY TO ATTACK They will NEVER use Tactic 2 to heal themselves

BUT

1: Self - Health > 25% - Use Lowest Health Poultice
2: Enemy - Nearest Visible - Attack

Works fine.

I'm willing to bet most people complaining a healing mage doesn't heal them is because they have there Ally - Health trigger UNDER something like Attack..keeping the heal from ever triggering.

it's not a coding error or bug...it's lack of human intelligence when setting up their party Tactics.

[sinosleep]

Meh, tactics work just fine for me. Custom tactics on everyone, use common sense, viola.

[Sidney]

Suron wrote...

No the behavior isn't broken..as you stated yourself...it's his tactics...read the description of the behaviors...tactics are EXECUTED FIRST....so if you have a tactic set up...ie Attack Target of Main Character...but the Main Character is dead....so even though they're set to Aggressive they're still following that tactic..which is telling them there's nothing to attack so they just stand there.

Your first tactic should always be "Health < 50% Use Healing" and the last is always "Nearest Enemeny: Attack".

They will always heal and will always attack. You can do anything between those 2 you want but not having those options means bad things can happen.

Modifié par Sidney, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:39 .

[sinosleep]

Sidney wrote...

Your first tactic should always be "Health < 50% Use Healing" and the last is always "Nearest Enemeny: Attack".

They will always heal and will always attack. You can do anything between those 2 you want but not having those options means bad things can happen.

There's that common sense I was talking about, that's how I've always framed my tactics. The big one though is the attack, since I like to control potion use myself since I hate when there's one mob left, 3 out of 4 characters are just fine on health, and the tactic decides to waste a potion on a character that could have just walked away from the battle and let the other 3 finish it.

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:46 .

[Edelwolf]

here's a tactic I often use and it revolves around your main tank.



Suppose the main tank is alistair, then



enemy attacking alistair -> X

enemy being attacked by alistair -> Y



X can be cheap disablers like freeze, paralysis

Y can be shooting, attacking or most single target abilities really.



The tank has to draw all the aggro with threaten and taunt.

This way the party does focus fire in relative safety while you control the 1 member, like a mage, to do critical stuff like COC and FF manually.

[Sidney]

Edelwolf wrote...

here's a tactic I often use and it revolves around your main tank.

Suppose the main tank is alistair, then

enemy attacking alistair -> X
enemy being attacked by alistair -> Y

X can be cheap disablers like freeze, paralysis
Y can be shooting, attacking or most single target abilities really.

The tank has to draw all the aggro with threaten and taunt.
This way the party does focus fire in relative safety while you control the 1 member, like a mage, to do critical stuff like COC and FF manually.

Again, an excellent plan and one I also do. Allistair has the Attack Nearest and everyone else has attack who Alisair is attacking.

If you look at a typical Warrior script I don't need a ton of slots to make my fighters do their job. this is Sten's current script - I turned him into a shield guy so he doesn't suck:

1. Heal < 50%
2. Surrounded by 3 or more enemies = War Cry
3. Shield Bash target Alistair
4. Overpower target Alistair
5.  Attack target Alistair
6. Attack Target Nearest (in theory 4 should ensure he doesn't stand around but I'm making really sure)

The "powers" are gratuitous since you really only need 1, 5, and 6 to make him do basically what you need him to do.

[Siven80]

Creature 1 wrote...

2.  If you don't have an "enemy:any->attack" order your characters will stand around like idiots. 

Always have a slot at the end for "enemy:any->attack" or the equivalent (attack target of . . .) so at least your characters will be doing something useful if none of their other tactics are valid.  If you end up not having enough slots to fit all of your special directions and this, leave it off but make sure to keep an eye on that character. 

Great tips for anyone new to tactics.

Just 1 thing about the above quote though, maybe its just me but the Enemy:any tag never seems to work. I have ranged classes on Passive behaviour and melee on Defensive or default and the Enemy:any SHOULd overide the behaviour and make them attack. But if you set it to Enemy:nearest visible > attack then it will work. well atleast it does most of the time. Seems to me a lot of the options are bugged.

Like i said maybe its just me, but thats how it worked for me when i wanted my guys to just attack instead of standing around watching.

Modifié par Siven80, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:31 .

[Sidney]

I've never gotten Passive to work right with any tactics. The only two behaviors I use are Ranged (mages + Leli) and Aggressive (everyone else).