119 réponses à ce sujet

[TriggerHappy64]

Duckman33 wrote...
Something to remember, your condition: "attack an enemy attacking the main character" tells the AI to attack whatever mob is attacking the games MAIN Character, not the CONTROLLED character. So, logically what happens when your character dies? No more mobs are attacking him, thus your AI character stands there like an idiot. The rest of your AI characters will do the same thing if you set them up that way. Why? Because, if no more mobs are attacking the MAIN Character (because he's dead), they have no target to attack!

Ugh... If you look at the aggressive behavior and hover your mouse over it, it says "if none of the conditions apply (as in those listed in the tactics) your character will perform a default attack routine."  This was not happening.  I was not controlling the character in question who was supposed to be doing a default attack routine once my main character died.  On aggressive, a non controlled character should be attacking an enemy in sight and not standing still, even when the listed tactics do not apply.

The rest of your post was helpful though, thank you.

And in regards to having to actually add a "attack nearest enemy" command in the list of tactics is a waste of a tactic slot when your characters should do that automatically if set to aggressive or even if they're being attacked (and not passive or cautious).  I mean, obviously they should be attacking, having to actually add an additional command when you could have another special ability in the list is such a waste.

Modifié par TriggerHappy64, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:12 .

[Eshme]

The Ranged Setting doesnt work, when it sais that Leliana will defend herself from a Melee Opponent attacking her upfront. She will still switch to Bow when im not looking. Regardless, not the Tactic had set her on Melee but i did. Which should override any automatic.  See the Video.
As i said, manual control has the same Problems, of Toons not doing an Action and standing around not doing anything. Sometimes even the Action is bugged in where it does nothing.

If you can, and i havent said it for no reason, please explain this Video of the Glitches i had in a single battle which are bugworthy ,multple tries every scene.



I prefer to give commands myself, as its more fun. Pausing and planning is what the game is about. 
And usually the tactic provided isnt flexible enough (and like someone else said makes a teammate run across the field just to put Sunder Armor over an remote Enemy instead of helping lol) if enemies are difficult.

However i dont see why anyone would not agree, when they are looking for some basic AI  that will at least provide a good basis to manual control. One which doesnt make Teammates stand around if Aggressive, and one which doesnt make them heroically choose the wrong Action when your not looking.

El-Destructo wrote...

The advantage, to me, of telling my characters to attack their own target is that I can micro manage all their individual targets in a fight such as if I want a melee boss harassed by an archer for crippling shot while my other dps kills adds. In this way I retain control and they keep to their targets if I want to focus fire just as well.

Thanks for the tip.

[Sidney]

TriggerHappy64 wrote...

And in regards to having to actually add a "attack nearest enemy" command in the list of tactics is a waste of a tactic slot when your characters should do that automatically if set to aggressive or even if they're being attacked (and not passive or cautious).  I mean, obviously they should be attacking, having to actually add an additional command when you could have another special ability in the list is such a waste.

"Should" vs "Is" and frankly if you need all the tactics slots you are trying way too hard.

[TriggerHappy64]

Sidney wrote...
"Should" vs "Is" and frankly if you need all the tactics slots you are trying way too hard.

You might think so, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that it's a waste of a tactics slot.

[moonstruckred]

I have the same problem with spells. Also, not sure if anyone else has this issue but when I set someone to ranged (Morrigan for example) she will run up to the group and shoot her staff. Same with Leilana, she'll run up and start stabbing even with her set to archer and ranged with her bow equipped. I was trying to run the game in easy mode while I learned tactics but with this many issues I still end up pausing a ton.

[Enduring_Warrior]

Without reading any post, I agree. After reading posts. Installing Advanced Tactics now. This is what happens with this mixture of Propietary/Opensource monster Bioware does. It's more about the money. I just hope ME 2 is better than ME 1.

[Turin_4]

I'm playing on Nightmare difficulty and have no complaints about the AI, but I gather the game is quite a bit easier on the PC than other platforms, managing friendly fire and AoE and whatnot, so that might be part of the problem.

If, however, you're playing on a PC, and your character is a mage, I don't see how you can have a serious complaint with the AI if you're actually using it correctly.  I can see how it might be problematic if your main character is a warrior or a rogue, because then you'll need to switch frequently to carefully manage those AoEs and cone spells.  But if your main character is a mage, if you don't have hold ground selected, you don't have the character selected, and if you've got your AI triggers prioritized correctly (these in bold because I make those mistakes sometimes), there really shouldn't be much trouble.

Also, I should note that I don't use any of the preset behavior AI settings.  Every character's AI is custom, which can get a bit tedious once you've got lots of special abilities, but it doesn't really take long.  And Wynne is the easiest of all!

1. Ally Health <90% = Regenerate
2. Ally Mana/Stamina <90% = Rejuvenate
3. Ally attacked by range = Heroic Aura
4. Ally Health <75% = Heal
5. Self Health <50% = Weakest poultice
6. Self Mana <10% = weakest mana potion
7. Ally Health <25% = group heal
8. Enemy attacking main character = stone fist
9. Target of main character = attack target

Modifié par Turin_4, 20 décembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[Klystron]

I micromanage my party on difficult fights -- bosses, the back-alley fights in Denerim, etc.
But personally I don't enjoy having to micromanage every party member when wading through room after room of trash mobs. 

Each NPC party member should have a separate set of preprogrammed AIs.  They're supposed to have distinct personalities -- that should extend beyond mere dialogue!   Some would be simple - Dog, for instance, should have "protect Hero from melee", "protect Hero from all", "protect party from melee", "passive", and should _NOT_ have "ranged".

I've installed mods to upgrade the tactics system and I love those mods.  I agree with the OP that we shouldn't have to spend precious skill points on this.  Other skills only need one person in the party to possess them, but these (without the mods) consume 3-4X the number of skill points, i.e. 4 points = 8 levels per party member. 

Why aren't the number of tactics slots based (at least partly) on a character's cunning attribute?  Zevran or Morrigan should have many more tricks up their sleeve than Dog, for example. 

[Eshme]

Turin_4 wrote...
If, however, you're playing on a PC, and your character is a mage, I don't see how you can have a serious complaint with the AI if you're actually using it correctly.  I can see how it might be problematic if your main character is a warrior or a rogue, because then you'll need to switch frequently to carefully manage those AoEs and cone spells. 

I dont see how its different if your char is a Mage, and you have a Warrior like Alistair. Or the other way around, and you be the Warrior.  Or why would you not need to control Alistair, when instead your own char played the Tank you suddenly need to control it?
Also I dont know why you pick on the topic ,that anyone finds it problematic to place a AOE Spell, if that is what the game has to offer. Nonono i dont think this is what people meant.

Klystron wrote...
Each NPC party member should have a separate set of preprogrammed AIs. 
They're supposed to have distinct personalities -- that should extend
beyond mere dialogue! 

HEy this is exactly my idea i had when i read this.  What is the Presets worth if not for this. Dog... ok. I had a  Idea with Alistair (smart as he is). If he has to go only 1 meter out of range of a glyph of Protection, he instead stays and taunts the Enemy to come to him. lol.. Like this should be on the list of Conditions for him.
Some Personal identifieable tactic..

[Turin_4]

I definitely agree you shouldn't have to spend rare (and thus very valuable) skill points just to have your party members have a brain when fighting. However, I do like the idea of a Tactics skill improving the AI, somehow. I'm not sure how, though, or how it would be implemented either. But it's a nice idea.

I dont see how its different if your char is a Mage, and you have a Warrior like Alistair. Or the other way around, and you be the Warrior. Or why would you not need to control Alistair, when instead your own char played the Tank you suddenly need to control it?

It's different because controlling a warrior's various abilities in combat is quite a bit more straightforward than controlling a mage's abilities in combat. Most warrior abilities are either single-target or enemies only-that means they can be assigned to AI slots without worry. Many mage abilities, however, including some of the best of them, are AoE friendly-fire-possible abilities. Such as all three primal cone spells, Blizzard, Tempest, Inferno (and the devastating Storm of the Century), the Paralysis explosion spell, and Fireball. If you're playing on a difficulty level where friendly fire is possible, and you assign any of those abilities to an AI slot, you're just asking to have your party scorched, frozen, electrified, knocked flat on their collective butts, paralyzed, or some combination of those things.

Also I dont know why you pick on the topic ,that anyone finds it problematic to place a AOE Spell, if that is what the game has to offer. Nonono i dont think this is what people meant.

I don't know what you mean by this.

[moonstruckred]

Turin I sort of get what you are saying but I don't think you watched the link that showed the glitches that were happening to the whole party, not just the mage. This isn't QQ about mage AI, part of it's a pondering of why even when you pause and tell your party to do things they just don't, or they ignore the presets completely. Nothing like Wynn running away from the tank instead of healing, just so she can staff attack a mob that we hadn't even aggro'd yet.

[Sidney]

moonstruckred wrote...

Turin I sort of get what you are saying but I don't think you watched the link that showed the glitches that were happening to the whole party, not just the mage. This isn't QQ about mage AI, part of it's a pondering of why even when you pause and tell your party to do things they just don't, or they ignore the presets completely. Nothing like Wynn running away from the tank instead of healing, just so she can staff attack a mob that we hadn't even aggro'd yet.

I'll say this, something is wrong with the mage in the video but that is certainly not typical. I've never seen it happen in any of my games nor any that my wife is playing - so 4 characters - be the mages the PC, NPC, controlled or scripted. I have no idea what is. I'd think the basic "Mages don't cast spells problem" would be a bigger issue since, well, that is all they do.

[Eshme]

Turin_4 wrote...

It's different because controlling a warrior's various abilities in combat is quite a bit more straightforward than controlling a mage's abilities in combat. Most warrior abilities are either single-target or enemies only-that means they can be assigned to AI slots without worry. Many mage abilities, however, including some of the best of them, are AoE friendly-fire-possible abilities. Such as all three primal cone spells, Blizzard, Tempest, Inferno (and the devastating Storm of the Century), the Paralysis explosion spell, and Fireball. If you're playing on a difficulty level where friendly fire is possible, and you assign any of those abilities to an AI slot, you're just asking to have your party scorched, frozen, electrified, knocked flat on their collective butts, paralyzed, or some combination of those things.

Lol yea of course "thats" different. But since you likely always have a tank and a mage in your party, by that logic you always have problems. Since you said its "problematic" having to control a mage as well.  And there its not "different" who of the 2 is your PC, as the mage will still be a mage.

I'll say this, something is wrong with the mage in the video but that
is certainly not typical. I've never seen it happen in any of my games
nor any that my wife is playing - so 4 characters - be the mages the
PC, NPC, controlled or scripted. I have no idea what is. I'd think the
basic "Mages don't cast spells problem" would be a bigger issue since,
well, that is all they do.

Its reproducable btw. It happened many times (not always thou) at the same place you see. At least for one occassions as there seem to be more.
This is also PC Version which is in many ways different from console ,while looking under the hood.

Modifié par Eshme, 21 décembre 2009 - 10:02 .

[logitek256]

i find it quite useful.... i guess u haven't met a High Dragon yet

[Duckman33]

Suron wrote...

Duckman33 wrote...

You say you are using the Aggressive Behavior setting, which should just tell the AI to attack the next nearest enemy. If that's the case, that would tell me it's the behavior that is broken, not the tactics. The bevaviors seem to work just fine for me though.

No the behavior isn't broken..as you stated yourself...it's his tactics...read the description of the behaviors...tactics are EXECUTED FIRST....so if you have a tactic set up...ie Attack Target of Main Character...but the Main Character is dead....so even though they're set to Aggressive they're still following that tactic..which is telling them there's nothing to attack so they just stand there.

Obviously you didn't read my entire post before you decided to reply. As I explained in my tactics setup, I already know how tactics are processed and how they function (I played FFXII which has the same tactics system.)  And I also proveded a lengthy explanation as to why his tactics were broken, which you seem to have parroted in your reply to me essentially, so I don't get your point of re-explaining to me what I had already explained to the OP.,.. 

However, if you are saying tactics are processed first, and bevavior is ignored if a tactic condition is true, then why have behaviors in the first place? If tactics are ALWAYS processed before behaviors as you say, then behaviors would be ignored all the time unless you turn tactics off. If this is the case, please explain to me why when I put the ranged behavior on someone I want to use bows and stay at a distance while doing so, they stay at a distance from the target and use their bow. Then when I change that behavior to aggressive, they go charging into the mobs like they have a death wish, still using the bow at point blank range? All this ocurrs while I have tactics enabled. This tells me that tactics and behaviors work in conjunction with each other. Not independent of each other. Un;ess I'm special and my game works differently than everyone elses...

Modifié par Duckman33, 26 décembre 2009 - 05:29 .

[MOTpoetryION]

ALL the tactics function is so we can pause the game to fix there crap AI. It allows us to pause before and during a fight to fix it They are just trying to hide it behind a so called new feature period end of story . But they do need to make a good modern day AI one of these day because the one they have is garbage. But hey look how many they have fooled already with it .

PS: And I'm starting to think all these stanch flamers so viscously defending this game are none other then the ones that worked on it but are playing without  reveling that they work for Bioware .because its the most vicious forum i have ever witnessed when someone post a topic like this. your right OP at least there are still some smart people out there.

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 26 décembre 2009 - 05:55 .

[Grommash94]

Man, the whole point is to build your own AI. Which I quite like tbh.

[Duckman33]

TriggerHappy64 wrote...

Duckman33 wrote...
Something to remember, your condition: "attack an enemy attacking the main character" tells the AI to attack whatever mob is attacking the games MAIN Character, not the CONTROLLED character. So, logically what happens when your character dies? No more mobs are attacking him, thus your AI character stands there like an idiot. The rest of your AI characters will do the same thing if you set them up that way. Why? Because, if no more mobs are attacking the MAIN Character (because he's dead), they have no target to attack!

Ugh... If you look at the aggressive behavior and hover your mouse over it, it says "if none of the conditions apply (as in those listed in the tactics) your character will perform a default attack routine."  This was not happening.  I was not controlling the character in question who was supposed to be doing a default attack routine once my main character died.  On aggressive, a non controlled character should be attacking an enemy in sight and not standing still, even when the listed tactics do not apply.

The rest of your post was helpful though, thank you.

You are welcome.

Ugh? I have read the decriptions on the behaviors. From what you just described above, again it's the behavior that doesn't seem to be working properly. Which I said in my original reply, which you didn't include in this reply. I don't know why it's not working for you that way. If i set a guy to aggressive, he will attack any nearest mob if the player I'm controlling does not have a target currently.

The main reason I set the tactics to have the AI attack any enemy that is the target of the controlled player is so the AI ALWAYS has the target I'm going after no matter which character I take control of. This ensures quick and efficient fights because the AI isn't off attacking some random target dragging the fight on, and possibly getting the entire party killed because we are not focusing our energy on one target, dropping enemies fast. If you play MMO's, then you know this is "basic party tactics 101".

[Duckman33]

MOTpoetryION wrote...

ALL the tactics function is so we can pause the game to fix there crap AI. It alows us to pause before and during a fight to fix it They are just trying to hide it behind a so called new feature period end of story . But they do need to make a good modern day AI one of these day because the one they have is garbage. But hey look how many they have fooled already with it .

Fooled? If you think the tactics system doesnt work in this game then the only fool is you. As many have said, if you know and understand the tacts system, it works just as expected.

[MOTpoetryION]

OK i try not to post two times in their same post. I never said i don't understand anything obviously i understand more then you do. And build our own AI ? We already pretty much pay them to beta test their games on release. But now we have to make our own Ai well sh*t . Then what are we
paying them for . lol


and one like "nearest enemy  DESTROY  " default action would of been nice

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 26 décembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[Kal Choedan]

First I'd like to emphasise a post someone else made earlier. The Advanced Tactics mod - found right here on the Bioware site - is phenomenal. It fixes many of the problems with the Tactics system and should be a must-have for anyone who makes more than very trivial use of it.



Secondly my own very small contribution You can improve a lot of your tactics setups - particularly for custom target/attack routines by "clever" use of goto commands. I will give an example but the general idea is to have a tactics setup like this:



1. Priority abilites at the top - e.g. healing

2. Critical conditionals next - openers like sleep on cluster, shatter combos etc

3. Next up is toggle activation

4. Target selection -> goto combat routine

5. Wait/attack something

6. Combat Routine



The target selection goes through targets in priority order and gives a jump command into the combat routine. The combat routine then contains conditionals for your actual clicky attacks. The wait/attack command is a failsafe to prevent the script from just flowing straight down into the next section without a target being picked. Most characters will want an Enemy: Nearest or Enemy: Lowest HP, though Enemy: Any is probably the best catchall. If you don't want a character to attack at this point you can instead use a wait command like "Enemy: Any - Wait".



An example of those two sections to make this a bit more clear, using an early game Leliana and using the PC as main assist:



1 Enemy: using magic attack - goto 5

2 Enemy: target of main character - goto 5

3 Enemy: Attacking Leliana - goto 5

4 Enemy: Lowest health - goto 5



5 Enemy Health < 10% - goto 11

6 Enemy Elite or higher - goto 8

7 Enemy Health < 25% - goto 11

8 Enemy Armor med/high - shattering

9 Enemy attacking melee or ranged - crippling

10 Enemy attacking melee - pinning

11 Enemy any: attack



I'm sure there are plenty of other examples and tons of room for improvement here too.

[Sacrificial Bias]

Duckman33 wrote...

MOTpoetryION wrote...

ALL the tactics function is so we can pause the game to fix there crap AI. It alows us to pause before and during a fight to fix it They are just trying to hide it behind a so called new feature period end of story . But they do need to make a good modern day AI one of these day because the one they have is garbage. But hey look how many they have fooled already with it .

Fooled? If you think the tactics system doesnt work in this game then the only fool is you. As many have said, if you know and understand the tacts system, it works just as expected.

Perhaps it's because I play a console version(PS3), but I'm also quite familiar with the FFXII Gambit system and I have to say that DA:O Tactics can't hold a candle to it, though combat is admittedly much more complicated.  The fact that there IS a mod for the PC version, to me, suggests that the problem CAN be fixed, and that it ought to be an expected patch for the console versions in the near future.

I sometimes find that setting Self:Any = Activate Mode won't work.  The conditions also seem a tad limited, with the most obvious being that there's no way to set your healer to automatically revive a dead character because of a lack of Status=Dead parameter.  I've also yet to find a way to have Shale switch in and out of Stone Aura mode because I haven't found a parameter to deactivate Stone Aura once combat ends.  

And unless I'm very much mistaken, there's no way to have the tactics active on your controlled character(unlike FFXII).  While that may sound like a small complaint, I still think it would be convenient to have that feature if my PC is the healer and I'm having a hard time paying attention to 4 barely visible health bars, or if I don't want to constantly reactivate Berserk once combat ends(seems unnecessarily tedious there).

Sure, "micromanage your party", you say.  Quite frankly, I thought the whole POINT of the tactics system was that you DIDN'T have to manually oversee each and every aspect of combat.  And that those who cleverly set their tactics are rewarded by having the AI play the game for you.  While that sounds stupid, so long as there are people who do that and that the alternative(not using the tactics system) is always available, I don't see why not.

[Eshme]

Hmm nicely said, and i am not really using the automated tactics. Made me think that it could be handy ,if there were conditions not there currently. For example "Attacked by: nothing or anything". Or distance to nearest or current enemy smaller or greater than ***

[ResoluteOne]

Most of the problems in this thread are because people don't seem to understand how they are supposed to work, not because they are broken.

First of all, the Behavior function controlls where the character locates themselves.  Do they charge enemies, run away, stay close to the controlled character, do they stay in damaging area of effects or run away.  That is what you use behavior for.  It has no effect on what skills they use or who or if they attack.  People posting it is broken because the character is not attacking with it on aggressive are really not seeing the point of how this works at all.   You use the behavior on top of what action you tell them to do on the tactics menu, not expect the behavior makes them automatically do things.  It is more like the behavior is a modifier which effects every other thing you put in the tactics list.  Choosing to use a skill on the nearest enemy while on aggressive might have a totally different result then the exact same tactic when used on passive.  On one they might charge up and use the skill, on the other they might run away and use it when someone approaches.

Second, the character tries to activate the tactics in the exact order you list them in if they have the abilty to meet the condition.  If you dont carefully put the tactics in the correct order then yes they will do useless or wrong things and not ever activate the tactics down the list.  This is not a bug.  This is the player not planning out the tactics in order.

I played the whole game through on hard just controlling the PC in battle and letting the tactics work.  Here is an example with Wynne from memory.

1)self mana < 10% activate blood magic
2self health < 50% deactivate blood magic
3) ally health < 90% regenerate
4) ally health < 75%  heal
5 ally health < 50% group heal
6)self mana < 50% spellbloom
7self mana < 25% group rejuvinate
8) enemy attacking wynne Petrify
9)closest enemy stonefist
10)enemy melee against wynne glyph of repulsion
11)enemy attacking wynne with ranged gyph of paralysis
12)closest enemy insect swarm

She heals the group, disables any enemies attacking her,  destroys weak enemies attacking her and regenerates mana.  Only bosses would pose a threat.  Why would I ever need to activate her manually?  There are no more skills I can click on faster or better then what she will already do.  If she is in trouble, the best action is to use my PC to help her, not take her over and try some micromangement.  The tactics work great and are complex.

Modifié par ResoluteOne, 27 décembre 2009 - 10:52 .