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[Renmiri1]

schalafi wrote...

The only things I liked about the Awakening Anders were his love of Ser Pouncealot, and his comment about knicker weasels.

DA2 Anders was just kind of funny and nice in the first act, but after the second act he just started a downhill slide into depression and fanaticism, (Justice's influence I think), and although I romanced him and didn't kill him, I was disappointed in how little relationship with Hawke he had.

Act 3 and Act 1 barely have any but Act 2 has some cool stuff. Also both DLCs have nice romance dialogue.

[Carmen_Willow]

I didn't much care for Anders in Awakenings and knew that my first impression that he was a really angry guy underneath all that sarcasm was correct when the big building went "boom"!

I always knew that he was a guy who was sitting on a whole big bag of whoop-a** that he was getting ready to let loose on the world. It amazed me how many people thought he was funny when all I heard was the really pissed off guy venting.

If they had high powered rifles in Thedas, I would have expected to find him on top of a tower one day taking pot shots at one and all, but mad bomber fits his profile as well. What I didn't understand was why they had to drag Justice into it.

Anders' rage was enough to set him off all on his own, but I guess being able to say that the "spirit or demon" made him do it was Bioware's out for him.

He always made me nervous.

[Renmiri1]

Carmen_Willow wrote...


Anders' rage was enough to set him off all on his own, but I guess being able to say that the "spirit or demon" made him do it was Bioware's out for him.

He always made me nervous.

It could be said it is just the opposite: Anders  rage was the one what corrupted Justice into Vengeance and made the spirit "do it".

He always made me hot 

My poor Hawke had no chance against him 

[themikefest]

I never liked anders I turned him over to the templars the first opportunity I got in awakening

in da2 I found him to be a piece of crap(merging with a spirit) willing to kill anyone and everyone to save one bloody mage I wish there was a better option to kill him instead of stabbing him

[Renmiri1]

There is.. Side with templars and let him go. You get to kill him with a blaze of fire on the gallows later. And you break his heart.

[MissRedZelda]

Despite how I feel about Anders, I refuse to side with the Templars. I've always been 100% pro-mage, but I DON'T support killing and destruction in order to achieve. it. That's why I don't like DA2 Anders. It's because of him that Justice became Vengeance. Anders corrupted him, not the other way around.

Awakening Anders may have been angry, but at least he balanced it out with a charming personality (and not to mentioned a very sexy northern accent). DA2 Anders what just a broken record of whining and complaining.

[smallwhippet]

MissRedZelda wrote...


Awakening Anders may have been angry, but at least he balanced it out with a charming personality (and not to mentioned a very sexy northern accent). DA2 Anders what just a broken record of whining and complaining.

Now this is curious. I read this assertion in another post a while ago (perhaps even on this thread) and it surprised me because it didn't fit with my recollection of DA:A Anders. It surprises me even more now, having just finished another play through of Awakenings where I was particularly listening out for it. 

I know (because I've just looked it up!) that Greg Ellis was born in Wigan, and IRL has a northern accent, albeit not particularly pronounced, but this was certainly not in evidence in the game. To my ear, there was no consistent regional accent employed in his performance. There was one phrase in one bit of dialogue which had what could be construed as a northern twang, and seemed out of place as such, but that was the extent of it.

I'm certainly thankful that there wasn't any sort of generic 'ee-bah-goom' ersatz awfulness.

What struck me about his performance was that he sounded as though he was affecting a speech mode - perhaps a notch or two above his normal pitch? - which didn't quite sound comfortable. It gave the impression that he was 'putting on' a voice. His smooth RP as Cullen sounds much more 'natural', by contrast. The result, for me, was that the character felt contrived.

I rather prefer Adam Howden's performance as DA2 Anders, and find the character himself more interesting. 

Modifié par smallwhippet, 09 août 2012 - 09:27 .

[esper]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I didn't much care for Anders in Awakenings and knew that my first impression that he was a really angry guy underneath all that sarcasm was correct when the big building went "boom"!

I always knew that he was a guy who was sitting on a whole big bag of whoop-a** that he was getting ready to let loose on the world. It amazed me how many people thought he was funny when all I heard was the really pissed off guy venting.

If they had high powered rifles in Thedas, I would have expected to find him on top of a tower one day taking pot shots at one and all, but mad bomber fits his profile as well. What I didn't understand was why they had to drag Justice into it.

Anders' rage was enough to set him off all on his own, but I guess being able to say that the "spirit or demon" made him do it was Bioware's out for him.

He always made me nervous.

I agree with much off what you say expect the last bit. Anders never had the spine to do it without Justice, because no matter what the da:a Anders what a comforist and a runner. He would never had stayed in Kirkwall long enought to get as desperate as he does in da2.

Anyway, Justice only makes Anders do it in rivalry. In friendship Anders assumes responsibility for it.

On the final note Justice always was a spirit of Vengaence, just as I don'¨t understand that people think that Anders was happy in da.a I don't understand that they think Justice was benevolent. He fights the baroness to avange the souls of the dead, not to save them, he joins the wardens to avenge Kristoff and he is the only one who has a bad reason for not wanting to side with the architecht.

[Renmiri1]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Despite how I feel about Anders, I refuse to side with the Templars. I've always been 100% pro-mage, but I DON'T support killing and destruction in order to achieve. it. That's why I don't like DA2 Anders. It's because of him that Justice became Vengeance. Anders corrupted him, not the other way around.

Awakening Anders may have been angry, but at least he balanced it out with a charming personality (and not to mentioned a very sexy northern accent). DA2 Anders what just a broken record of whining and complaining.

DA2 Anders can be quite charming but you need to change companions a lot to see all his funny / charming dialogs. Also he is great in Legacy and MotA DLCs. He also doesn't whine as much in Act 2. You can see some of my favorite banter here 

I sided with mages in all but one of my playthroughs. It felt soo wrong to side with Templars!  I did it to see how it would go. Even then I could not kill Anders in cold blood. Was worse, wish I had just stabbed him. Anders follows you to the Gallows and tries to stop you and gets heartbroken to see what his violence made you do to mages. And then you have to kill him in battle. Ouch! For me it was torture but I imagine Anders haters would really enjoy the opportunity to break the man and everything he cares about, added to being able to kill him in a blaze of fire. 

Of course I don't approve of his bombing in game, let alone IRL bombers. But I see it as despair and madness, like Orcino later. Meredith had already sent for the right of Annulment and he knew it. He knew all mages on the Kirkwall tower were going to be put to death soon. He just tried to buy them time to defend themselves, by acting first instead of waiting for them to be slaughtered. He should have killed templars not Elthina and chantry priests though. Killing non combatants is wrong.

[Sylvanpyxie]

On the final note Justice always was a spirit of Vengaence

This is wildly off-topic, sorry, but...
Justice was never, has never been, a spirit of Vengeance. Not in Awakening and not in Dragon Age 2.

If a Man murders a Man, there should be retribution of equal measure. The guilty deserve to be punished, as long as that punishment is justified. The innocent have nothing to fear, for they deserve no retribution.

That is pretty much what Justice was in Awakening.. Justice, in it's purest form, is brutal, uncompromising and morally questionable by today's society. It certainly isn't benevolent, i can agree, but it's still justice.

In Dragon Age 2 he didn't become Vengeance, he just went utterly wacko. He was crazy, plain and simple. Utterly off his rocker.

He perceived *everyone* as guilty. There's no Vengeance, there's no Justice, there's just delusion. He saw nothing but corruption, he saw injustice, he saw guilt. He saw the guilty and they all needed to be punished. Except, of course, not all of them were guilty.

It didn't matter if they had committed a crime, and if they had, it didn't matter if it was bloody murder or political scandal. It didn't matter because he believed that, regardless of what they had currently done with their lives, they would commit crime and it was his job to stop it.

That isn't Justice or Vengeance, that is sheer, utter, complete and total insanity.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 09 août 2012 - 07:30 .

[Arthur Cousland]

I just didn't like how the funny/goofball mage in Awakening went all terrorist in DA2. Anders in DA2 feels like a completely different person, as if Bioware knew that they wanted a "freedom fighter mage" in DA2, and put Anders' face on the character as a bit of fan service. The Anders short story was only written after DA2 came out, along with the backlash.

Anders was one of the more popular characters in Origins/Awakening, and they went and made him into a character who many were only able to tolerate because he was the only option for a healer mage. If you didn't support his views on the chantry/templars, then you were an enemy of his. Even if you have maxed friendship with him when he asks you to help him collect the ingredients for his "potion", he'll accuse your support of his cause to be all talk if you ask questions. After he blows up the chantry, I can't help but feel used by him.

The Awakening Anders never would have the backbone to blow up a chantry. All he wanted was to be free of the templars, to have a pretty girl and the right to shoot lightning at fools.  This Anders hardly seemed like someone who would allow a spirit to merge with him and share control over his body.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 09 août 2012 - 07:40 .

[esper]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

On the final note Justice always was a spirit of Vengaence

This is wildly off-topic, sorry, but...
Justice was never, has never been, a spirit of Vengeance. Not in Awakening and not in Dragon Age 2.

If a Man murders a Man, there should be retribution of equal measure. The guilty deserve to be punished, as long as that punishment is justified. The innocent have nothing to fear, for they deserve no retribution.

That is pretty much what Justice was in Awakening.. Justice, in it's purest form, is brutal, uncompromising and morally questionable by today's society. It certainly isn't benevolent, i can agree, but it's still justice.

In Dragon Age 2 he didn't become Vengeance, he just went utterly wacko. He was crazy, plain and simple. Utterly off his rocker.

He perceived *everyone* as guilty. There's no Vengeance, there's no Justice, there's just delusion. He saw nothing but corruption, he saw injustice, he saw guilt. He saw the guilty and they all needed to be punished. Except, of course, not all of them were guilty.

It didn't matter if they had committed a crime, and if they had, it didn't matter if it was bloody murder or political scandal. It didn't matter because he believed that, regardless of what they had currently done with their lives, they would commit crime and it was his job to stop it.

That isn't Justice or Vengeance, that is sheer, utter, complete and total insanity.

No it is black and white mentallity. He already decided in da:a that templars are evil, then you add Anders bitterness and you get that. Anyway this is also personally why I think spirits are more dangerous than demons and why I agree with Merrill in that there are no such thing as a good spirit.

ANd I will repeat again. Play da:a and listen to the spirit, everytime he is talking about his ideal he is talking about avenging people. Now I am not surprised that Justice = Vengance in Thedas and thus also the Fade, because in a country (and that is basically all countries in Thedas) where the law only work at random and differently for high and poor and races and social groups, the closet form of justice that all can agree on is an eye for an eye, but that kind of justice is vengaence.

[Sylvanpyxie]

He already decided in da:a that templars are evil

I never said he didn't, i know for a fact that Justice considered the Templars to be wrong in Awakening. That isn't anything that i denied. What i'm saying is that in Dragon Age 2 Justice has lost his grip on reality.

He isn't punishing the guilty or avenging the innocent. He no longer cares who is guilty and who is innocent. In his eyes, anyone that stands idle is guilty and deserves punishment.

He is seeing crimes that have never been committed.
He is seeing innocent, defenseless, people as a threat to his cause.
He even sees his allies as enemies.

Since his merge with Anders, Justice has been nothing but a Spirit of Delusion and Paranoia.

[esper]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He already decided in da:a that templars are evil

I never said he didn't, i know for a fact that Justice considered the Templars to be wrong in Awakening. That isn't anything that i denied. What i'm saying is that in Dragon Age 2 Justice has lost his grip on reality.

He isn't punishing the guilty or avenging the innocent. He no longer cares who is guilty and who is innocent. In his eyes, anyone that stands idle is guilty and deserves punishment.

He is seeing crimes that have never been committed.
He is seeing innocent, defenseless, people as a threat to his cause.
He even sees his allies as enemies.

Since his merge with Anders, Justice has been nothing but a Spirit of Delusion and Paranoia.

Ha... I don't disagree. Black and white view have a tendency to develop to that when in a impossible conflict. I am just point out that already in da:a he was not spefically benevolent. He just thought himself to be.

[Renmiri1]

esper wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

He already decided in da:a that templars are evil

I never said he didn't, i know for a fact that Justice considered the Templars to be wrong in Awakening. That isn't anything that i denied. What i'm saying is that in Dragon Age 2 Justice has lost his grip on reality.

He isn't punishing the guilty or avenging the innocent. He no longer cares who is guilty and who is innocent. In his eyes, anyone that stands idle is guilty and deserves punishment.

He is seeing crimes that have never been committed.
He is seeing innocent, defenseless, people as a threat to his cause.
He even sees his allies as enemies.

Since his merge with Anders, Justice has been nothing but a Spirit of Delusion and Paranoia.

Ha... I don't disagree. Black and white view have a tendency to develop to that when in a impossible conflict. I am just point out that already in da:a he was not spefically benevolent. He just thought himself to be.

Anders says several times that the Fade spirits deal in emotion and can not tell when it is the right time to act, or other nuances. Justice gets into a "with me or against me" mode as we can see with the mage girl he almost kills. I get the impression that in the spirit's view, templars and anyone that does not fight templars should be punished. And Anders life is to be spent avenging unjustice to mages. No romance or levity for Anders.

Did Anders corrupt Justice or did Justice corrupt Anders ? I don't think the answer is simple. I can see both spinning out of control, making their failings bigger and reducing / killing their redeeming qualities. In Act 3  you see Anders stops joking with Varric and pushes Hawke away (if she is his LI). And Justice intervenes if Hawke manages to convince Anders to give up his mad plans.

What they do is murderous and bad but if you look at it in context, when most of your friends are being lobotomized and you know that all mages in the tower will be executed soon.. Is despair and radical measures really so out of character ? Unlike Orcino they would never ally themselves with a demon. So they did the next worst thing. 

[ThePhoenixKing]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I just didn't like how the funny/goofball mage in Awakening went all terrorist in DA2. Anders in DA2 feels like a completely different person, as if Bioware knew that they wanted a "freedom fighter mage" in DA2, and put Anders' face on the character as a bit of fan service. The Anders short story was only written after DA2 came out, along with the backlash.

Anders was one of the more popular characters in Origins/Awakening, and they went and made him into a character who many were only able to tolerate because he was the only option for a healer mage. If you didn't support his views on the chantry/templars, then you were an enemy of his. Even if you have maxed friendship with him when he asks you to help him collect the ingredients for his "potion", he'll accuse your support of his cause to be all talk if you ask questions. After he blows up the chantry, I can't help but feel used by him.

The Awakening Anders never would have the backbone to blow up a chantry. All he wanted was to be free of the templars, to have a pretty girl and the right to shoot lightning at fools.  This Anders hardly seemed like someone who would allow a spirit to merge with him and share control over his body.

That's basically my thoughts about Anders in DA2 in a nutshell. I get why they wanted to have Anders blow up the Chantry from a storytelling perspective as opposed to some random mage, but it was ultimately executed so poorly that I can't help but feel resentful (this includes the short story, it just brings up more plot holes than it solves, really). Awakening!Anders was a quirky and interesting character, and while not my favourite (that would be either Sigrun or Nathaniel), I thought he was okay.

DA2!Anders was a terrorist jerk who lied to and used Hawke, murdered innocent people, sacrificed the entire Kirkwall Circle just to prove how unjust the Templars are, and was mean to Merrill . Even for pro-mage, "kiss my rear end, you Templar scum" me, he gets murder-knifed every time.

[Renmiri1]

Not all the mages in the Kirkwall Circle died. Some of them survived. Also, Meredith had already requested - and obtained - authorization for the Right of Annulment, before Anders even looked for the bomb ingredients.

The circle mages were doomed one way or the other. Anders' attack gave them the element of surprise and allowed some to survive. Was that justification enough to kill the Grand Cleric and the innocent people on the Chantry ? No but despair is a powerful motivator, if lousy guide for action. And the person who drove mages to despair was Meredith.