202 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

Master Che wrote...

My God...

Read the first 3 books and you'll know how irrelevant this complaint is.

Cerberus was on this path from the moment jack Harper was exposed to the reaper artifact on Shanxi.

Jack Harper is TIM right. I haven't read the comics

[dreman9999]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Having them in a grey morality woud be too "video gamey" or too realistic actually.

Looks like someone drank the "We're a grey organization" koolia TIM was serving in ME2.

[xsdob]

What kind of pro-human group kills mostly humans and than shrugs it off as nothing?

Space na.zi's, that's who.

[dreman9999]

MisterJB wrote...

Tigerman123 wrote...

Kahoku was going to ruin experiments that could have produced expendable shock troops for high risk missions which would save the lives of many marines.
His death was unfortunate but necessary.

hahahahahah..........You didn't play the rechni sub quest, didn't you.  The rachni could not be controled. Play ME1 again.

[NM_Che56]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

My God...

Read the first 3 books and you'll know how irrelevant this complaint is.

Cerberus was on this path from the moment jack Harper was exposed to the reaper artifact on Shanxi.

Jack Harper is TIM right. I haven't read the comics

Yep.  If you were going to get any then get those 4 about him. 

[Binary_Helix 1]

Agreed. I liked Cerberus and shared their goals for human supremacy.

If you were a renegade and gave them the Collector base an alternative storyline should have opened up.

[Binary_Helix 1]

garrusfan1 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

My God...

Read the first 3 books and you'll know how irrelevant this complaint is.

Cerberus was on this path from the moment jack Harper was exposed to the reaper artifact on Shanxi.

Jack Harper is TIM right. I haven't read the comics

He should have been Armistan Banes because we still have no idea who that person was.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[xsdob]

Anyone who supports cerberus supports shadowy dictatorships who use assassination and covert ops to manipulate goverment and public events and racism, nuff said.

They killed the original leader of terra firma becasue he wasn't pro-murdering aliens, they killed an admiral after setting up another thresher maw attack for his men, they killed thousands of people to make human biotics by setting up the accidents that casue ezero exposure, they almost destroyed the quarian flotilla by trying to blow up a henma class crusier, and the things they did to the grayson family were inexcusible.

They desere to die, and in my view any argument for them is from zealots and should not be taken into consideration, the cost of having them around far outwieghted the benefits long ago.

Modifié par xsdob, 14 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[CSI_Spectre]

Letting you rejoin Cerberus? That would have meant that Bioware would have to make ME3 more diverse and show that your past choices actually mattered. Apparently, that's not what they were going for.

I too liked the idea of joining Cerberus. I hated that ME3 FORCED you against TIM; even if you made it clear that you didn't want anything to do with the council (by getting them killed or telling the council to stick it when they offer you a chance for Spectre status). In my Shepard's story, Cerberus got stuff done. The politicians on the council didn't. TIM spends a fortune and brings you back and then he wants to be your enemy because.....? It was pretty weak.

What I would have liked to have seen is for you to get Cerberus and Alliance to work together against the reapers. Yes that would change the theme and alter story arcs, but I think it would have been much better.

You would convince TIM and the council to put aside differences and focus on the bigger threat: The Reapers. It would be somewhat similar to what you did with the Krogans/Turians and Geth/Quarians. You would work for both of them and unite them together to stand against the reapers.

Right now, I feel like uniting the galaxy against the reapers is irrelevant even after EC. Whether you got races to work together or not, who you kept alive or recruited, all it changes is your EMS; that's all your decisions mount to. The choices made no differnce in the ending cause you still have the option to up to 4 endings that everyone can get. It doesn't give you a huge variation.

In my "ME3" I would have uniting the galaxy mean something. Groups of people from different races and different organizations would come together and fight for a common cause. Asari, Turian, Salarian, Geth, Krogan, Humans, Drell, Rachni, etc.... Organizations like STG, Aria's Blood Pact and Blue Suns, Spectres, Cerberus, Zhu's Hope, etc... That would all matter and mean something.

I just think it would have been a much better route to go than destroying TIM's character. He goes from being a mysterious unknown to a Cobra Commander villan. I think it's strange that he seems like the main antagonist when he's clearly not associated with the Reapers.

[Master Xanthan]

Emzamination wrote...

Cerberus was a beautiful human centric group committed to the advancement of humanity by any and all means possible.I came to believe strongly in their Ideals/goals while playing Me2 and went out of my way to let characters know I was working 'for' them everytime the opprotunity presented itself.By me2's conclusion I thought I'd be able to continue my budding career as a valued cerberus operative in me3 but alas to my great disappointment, I was forced to rejoin the 'good' alliance and kowtow to that aging relic hackett.If that wasn't bad enough, you took my boss The illusive man and forced him into being my enemy.I cringed everytime I heard my shepard auto dialogue about taking down cerberus by any means necessary.

I should've been allowed to assist cerberus in killing the council and leaving udina with sole power which would've been a titanic boost to war assets considering the citadel fleet and human superiority.Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't eradicating the council and putting a human in power an alternate point of me1's conclusion? The worst part of it all was the destruction of the cerberus base along with the entire organization.When I destroyed that base I couldn't help but feel it was not only a waste of resources but a waste of story potential.My shepard could've taken over cerberus as the new head, purged the reaper tech and restructured it back into the human centric group I came to love.It's not fair the Asari got to keep their commandos and the salarians got to keep stg but human's had to lose their special forces branch.I shall never forgive you for what you did to Cerberus or TIM, Alien lovers.

It would have been pretty interesting if you could team up with Cerberus in ME3. It would be perfect for a Renegade Shepard. I remember in my renegade playthrough in ME1, I also killed the council and chose to have a human council made, and yet in ME3 you have a council that is almost the same as the council in ME1.

[Obadiah]

Even if the Illusive Man turned out to be crazy and indoctrinated at the end, it still would have been a good story for Shepard, the rogue Spectre, to ally with them to control the Reapers.

It would have been a bit of a nutso plot though, and probably would require another couple of discs (Omega begin the new hub and all).

[robertthebard]

Prosarian wrote...

It would have involved too much work to provide an alternate storyline with Shepard working for Cerberus, I suppose they just ran out of time. Simpler to turn them into pure evil.

Did you play ME 1?

Yes, luring an Alliance squad to their deaths with a fake distress beacon is looking out for the good of humanity.

How about ME 2?

Jacob:  They've been called terrorists, and with good reason.

I guess Jack was really an alien, we just didn't know because they altered her so much.

TIM:  Cerberus isn't as evil as you think.  Kind of implies something there, doesn't it?

It's a good thing for the game that I didn't meet him face to face in the initial meeting, and that there wasn't a renegade option to shoot him in the face, because I'd have taken it.

[robertthebard]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. I liked Cerberus and shared their goals for human supremacy.

If you were a renegade and gave them the Collector base an alternative storyline should have opened up.

It did.  You get to fight a whole lot of semi-husks every where you go, wearing Cerberus uniforms.  Of course, this seems to happen even if you destroy the base, so they were already researching ways to make Humanity more amenable to their means to an end approach.

[kolibri_]

Emzamination wrote...

and the rachni were bugs

Bugs? Let me guess... you always killed the Rachni on your playthroughs? Otherwise you should have found out, that those "bugs" are actually highly intelligent creatures. Able to work on the crucible and stuff, you know. How ignorant can one be to call the Rachni mere bugs? And use them as cannon fodder? But well... kinda fits the whole Cerberus mentality.

Modifié par kolibri_, 14 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .

[Roamingmachine]

Oh come on OP, TIM was an obvious moustache twirler from the start. Neither the man nor the organization had any redeeming qualities and going completely nuts in ME3 was a logical conclusion to their career of incompetence and unfettered evil.

[Renmiri1]

Roamingmachine wrote...

Oh come on OP, TIM was an obvious moustache twirler from the start. Neither the man nor the organization had any redeeming qualities and going completely nuts in ME3 was a logical conclusion to their career of incompetence and unfettered evil.

Not really.. I satrted playing ME on ME2 and to me TIM was just like the CEO of my Fortune 500 company. You know they can be evil and they certainly are not squeamish about doing bad stuff to get what they want, but they do try to stay on the "straight and narrow" good path, if they can.

TIM made a team for Sheppard with mostly good guys. Jacob, Joker, Chawkes, Ken and Gabi... He gave Sheppard 100% liberty to hire and do what she deemed best. He helped her find Garrus and Tali. The Cerberus of ME2 had it's evil research and members but we were shown that TIM was being lied to by the people at Jack's lab and the other evil cells.

ME3 twirling moustache evil TIM was a big shock to me. Indocrination explains it somewhat, but still.. was way out of character for ME2 Cerberus and TIM.

After playing ME1 though I wonder why didn't Sheppard shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight. ME1 Cerberus was evil. 

[NS Wizdum]

Emzamination wrote...

Cerberus was a beautiful human centric group committed to the advancement of humanity by any and all means possible.I came to believe strongly in their Ideals/goals while playing Me2 and went out of my way to let characters know I was working 'for' them everytime the opprotunity presented itself.By me2's conclusion I thought I'd be able to continue my budding career as a valued cerberus operative in me3 but alas to my great disappointment, I was forced to rejoin the 'good' alliance and kowtow to that aging relic hackett.If that wasn't bad enough, you took my boss The illusive man and forced him into being my enemy.I cringed everytime I heard my shepard auto dialogue about taking down cerberus by any means necessary.

I should've been allowed to assist cerberus in killing the council and leaving udina with sole power which would've been a titanic boost to war assets considering the citadel fleet and human superiority.Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't eradicating the council and putting a human in power an alternate point of me1's conclusion? The worst part of it all was the destruction of the cerberus base along with the entire organization.When I destroyed that base I couldn't help but feel it was not only a waste of resources but a waste of story potential.My shepard could've taken over cerberus as the new head, purged the reaper tech and restructured it back into the human centric group I came to love.It's not fair the Asari got to keep their commandos and the salarians got to keep stg but human's had to lose their special forces branch.I shall never forgive you for what you did to Cerberus or TIM, Alien lovers.

Cerberus is a terrorist organization dedicated to the advancement of Cerberus. With their "any means necessary" tactics, it was evevitable that they would either go the way of the ****'s and lose their humanity, or go the way of the KKK and become totally irrelavent.

"If a system of death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen in **** Germany, one would be able to find sufficient personnel for those camps in any medium-sized American town." - Stanley Milgram

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[N7Gold]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. I liked Cerberus and shared their goals for human supremacy.

If you were a renegade and gave them the Collector base an alternative storyline should have opened up.

But back then you believed TIM would use the Collector Base to learn the Reapers weakness and destroy them, when that was never how he wanted to defeat the Reapers from the beginning. If you knew since ME2 that he wanted to control the Reapers, not destroy them, you would likely be against him anyway, because he wants to harness the threat's power, not kill it. Power is what most villains want.

[grey_wind]

The writing that went into Cerberus in ME2 was brilliant. TIM was awesomely intriguing and Cerberur's actions and morality were always muddled up in so many shades of grey.
The Cerberus of ME3 was a joke. Rather than being the mysterious powers that worked behind the scenes for goals you could never be too sure of, they were turned into a generic army of mooks and evil space overlords. I'd have been ok with working for the Alliance and opposing Cerberus if it hadn't been turned into "Cerberus is indoctrinated and pure evulz, lulz", while everybody seemed to act like TIM was the Devil's own spawn and Shepard was forced to have an erection every time someone mentioned the Alliance.

[Blitzhawk65]

N7Gold wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. I liked Cerberus and shared their goals for human supremacy.

If you were a renegade and gave them the Collector base an alternative storyline should have opened up.

But back then you believed TIM would use the Collector Base to learn the Reapers weakness and destroy them, when that was never how he wanted to defeat the Reapers from the beginning. If you knew since ME2 that he wanted to control the Reapers, not destroy them, you would likely be against him anyway, because he wants to harness the threat's power, not kill it. Power is what most villains want.

TIM wanted power so that he could help humanity.  His goals were always for good intentions, but his motives were extreme, unethical, and subjectively "evil".  The problem is that ME3 Cerberus does not appear tostand for that motive.  There is not any good reason for Cerberus to be on Sur'Kesh, Tuchanka, the Citadel (during Udina's coup), Noveria, etc. other than to derp around and be evil.  Logically TIM would want to control the reapers, but not at the cost of potentially losing the entirety of the human population.  The galaxy uniting and destroying the reapers is a more favorable alternative outcome than the reapers winning.  TIM never previously seemed to be the type of villain that would say "If I can't have it, then nobody will!"  He was the type that adapted to the situation and did whatever it would take to assure the optimal outcome for humanity.  ME3 Cerberus is comically evil and appears to follow completely selfish motivations.  Cerberus could have still been an enemy and still could have conflicted with Shepard (ex: getting info from Mars and Vendetta, conducting experiments on Horizon, etc.), but there was no reason for them to be trying to kill krogan females, bomb krogans, try to take over the citadel, etc.

[Quackjack]

I mostly agree, minus insulting me for liking aliens and saying killing the council is a good idea.

[robertthebard]

Blitzhawk65 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Agreed. I liked Cerberus and shared their goals for human supremacy.

If you were a renegade and gave them the Collector base an alternative storyline should have opened up.

But back then you believed TIM would use the Collector Base to learn the Reapers weakness and destroy them, when that was never how he wanted to defeat the Reapers from the beginning. If you knew since ME2 that he wanted to control the Reapers, not destroy them, you would likely be against him anyway, because he wants to harness the threat's power, not kill it. Power is what most villains want.

TIM wanted power so that he could help humanity.  His goals were always for good intentions, but his motives were extreme, unethical, and subjectively "evil".  The problem is that ME3 Cerberus does not appear tostand for that motive.  There is not any good reason for Cerberus to be on Sur'Kesh, Tuchanka, the Citadel (during Udina's coup), Noveria, etc. other than to derp around and be evil.  Logically TIM would want to control the reapers, but not at the cost of potentially losing the entirety of the human population.  The galaxy uniting and destroying the reapers is a more favorable alternative outcome than the reapers winning.  TIM never previously seemed to be the type of villain that would say "If I can't have it, then nobody will!"  He was the type that adapted to the situation and did whatever it would take to assure the optimal outcome for humanity.  ME3 Cerberus is comically evil and appears to follow completely selfish motivations.  Cerberus could have still been an enemy and still could have conflicted with Shepard (ex: getting info from Mars and Vendetta, conducting experiments on Horizon, etc.), but there was no reason for them to be trying to kill krogan females, bomb krogans, try to take over the citadel, etc.

I came away with the "selfishly evil" position on them in ME 1, let alone some of the stuff that was going on in ME 2, or that we learn about there, with or without his approval.  I don't just look at TIM and go; this is Cerberus in a nutshell, although he's probably the chief nut in the shell.

[Blitzhawk65]

robertthebard wrote...
I came away with the "selfishly evil" position on them in ME 1, let alone some of the stuff that was going on in ME 2, or that we learn about there, with or without his approval.  I don't just look at TIM and go; this is Cerberus in a nutshell, although he's probably the chief nut in the shell.

The players do not get much back-story on Cerberus in ME1.  All we know at that point is that they are a former Alliance Black-Ops organization that went rogue and is into doing some crazy science experiments on rachni, thresher maws and thorian creeps.  We also know that they killed off Admiral Kahoku when he got too close to figuring them out.  One would have to figure that there was a reason for doing what they were doing.  Surely they weren't experimenting on rachni, maws, etc. just for the hell of it and there had to be some benefit to be gained.  Killing off Kahoku makes sense to protect the benefit and experimenting on Toombs, the marines, etc. makes sense since they were looking to study the effects of the thresher poison on the humans.

In the books and in ME2 TIM is introduced and presents Cerberus as a machiavellian pro-human organization.  The means are justified as long as the end goal of advancing the interests of humanity is reached.  This coincided with the Cerberus of ME1 (even though ME2 greatly expanded the scale of the Cerberus organization).  TIM seems like an untrustworthy and unethical person, but it is still believable that he is looking out for humanity and that he believes that he is the best person to do it because he will make the decisions that others will not.  If he was truly self-serving, then what was the point of spending a fortune on bringing Shepard back to stop the collectors?  It was because he believed that Shepard was the best-suited for the job and because the alternative of the collectors/reapers winning was much worse for humanity.  It makes no sense that he would do it "to get his hands on the collector base," because nobody knew what was beyond the relay.  It was likely that the chance to gain control of the base was something that TIM saw as an opportunity when the chance presented itself.

Then we have ME3.  Cerberus basically becomes a comically evil empire with an endless supply of mooks, and TIM becomes someone who appears to stop at no costs to stop the galaxy from uniting if he cannot get his own way (i.e. if he can't win, then nobody can).  What I found to be an interesting character in ME2 and an interesting organization in both ME1 and ME2 became a lame, comic book definition of pure evil.

For comparison, consider the infamous **** scientist Josef Mengele.  By all accounts he presented himself as an intelligent and articulate person who was kind to everyone he met (including his eventual victims).  He then proceeded to perform monstrous experiments on his victims until they died.  He didn't perform those experiements just to be "evil," he performed them to solve scientific/genetic mysteries that still elude researchers today.  He thought that his works would produce a greater good, but his methods were absolutely deplorable.  That is why he is an interesting figure to study and not some forgettable **** mook.  If his research is ever recovered and it is found to potentially lead to breakthroughs in genetic research (which could lead to things such as cures for diseases), then should we burn it because of how it was gained or should we use it?  It's probably an easier question after the fact, but it is an ethical dillema none the less.  Mengele is my comparison to ME2 TIM, both are "evil" by many definitions, but they are at least interesting and there is logical reasoning behind their acts.  To me, it would have been much more satisfying to have the option to kill a Mengele-like TIM (which I probably would have taken), then to have the unrealistic comic-book villain forced upon me and then be forced to kill him.

Modifié par Blitzhawk65, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[iamweaver]

I have to admit, this is one of the more successful troll threads that I have seen in a while. Kudos to the OP.