202 réponses à ce sujet

[Little Princess Peach]

Op I have to agree with you I hated the fact that shepard joined the Aliance and why the heck did she go back to Earth nothing was forcing her to do so no just blooming story line >.>

[corporal doody]

i dont wanna hear chants of...

HUMANITY FIRST,
HUMANITY FOREVER!

[flanny]

yeah, the writers really dropped the ball, i though get Cerberus and the council to join forces would have been a major theme in ME3. sadly cerberus became 1-dimensional cartoon villains who couldn't be taken seriously.

shame, I would actually of liked to have used TIM's vision when fighting the reapers rather then that moron hackett.

[Humakt83]

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

Modifié par Humakt83, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .

[dbkkk]

Yeah they really botched Cerberus in ME3. It makes an insult of playing ME2 working for TIM with all the heinous stuff in ME3. Not to mention they go from a well funded terrorist and R&D organization to an entity that is almost competitive in size and scope with the Earth Alliance forces. Wah? Maybe less fleet but a ton of commandos, special ops, ground forces, advanded tech, biotics, etc. They moved right in and almost took over the Citadel for pity's sake just to aid Udina in his coup. Might as well have modeled them after a Saturday morning cartoon show with a master villain organization. They lost any "grey" they had and are suddenly your opponents in almost half the missions or more. Again, wah? Though the Reapers were the main antagonists.

[tonnactus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Seriously. If anything, there should have been an option to shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight at the start of ME2.

Exactly.

[Chewin]

Shows that BW can't write sh*t when it comes to things like this.

Modifié par Chewin3, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:02 .

[flanny]

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

no cerberus = no shepard, no normandy SR2 and no reunion of the greatest fighting team in the universe. Cerberus was never 'evil' it was gray, TIM was a utilitarian, but that was the only was anyone was going to beat the beat reapers. 

[nitefyre410]

Chewin3 wrote...

Shows that BW can't write sh*t when it comes to things like this.

 

^  Exactly this. 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Geralt of Relays]

I’m afraid I’ve not been shot in the head enough times to think anything Cerberus does is a good idea. They are evil, pure and simple. They’re not about humanity at all costs, they are all about TIM at all costs, even if the price is the human soul. TIM confirms this by both wilfully indoctrinating himself with the Reaper implants, and wanting to use the Reaper tech by effectively indoctrinating his own followers who take the implants to soon only hear “our voice”. The whole “humanity above all others” mantra is merely to reel followers in, nothing more, nothing less. What is said in the comics/books is completely irrelevant, you can only get credit for what is put in the game.

TIM didn’t give you the SR2 and old friends out of the goodness of his heart. ME3 itself confirms on the vid logs he merely wanted you “invested”, so you could be more easily bended to suit his agenda. (This was to gain as much power & control as possible.) If your character had pro-Cerberus qualities, this didn’t make you his buddy or agent, it just simply made TIM’s life much easier and saved him doing a whole song & dance to convince you to work with him.

This is also why I detest the plot of ME2, particularly when I’m full Paragon. The last conversation you have with TIM in ME2, should have been the first conversation instead and have Miranda & Jacob arrested/killed by Shepard. Instead we’re railroaded no matter what to work with Cerberus, just like we’re railroaded to be their enemy no matter what in ME3. It just smells of bad writing on Bioware’s part and heavily intimates they didn’t write anything for ME2 or 3 while the first was getting made. They wrote them all separately and that was a very big mistake. It would have been unrealistic for them to have every detail thought out, but they could have had at least the basics fleshed out so not to screw things up down the line. It would have for example, been very interesting if you could have chosen to work with Alliance/Cerberus in ME2 & ME3. Though due to the much reduced production times in both games, anything like that just couldn’t be made possible and Mass Effect is left weaker overall as a result.

[robertthebard]

flanny wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

no cerberus = no shepard, no normandy SR2 and no reunion of the greatest fighting team in the universe. Cerberus was never 'evil' it was gray, TIM was a utilitarian, but that was the only was anyone was going to beat the beat reapers. 

So what you're saying is, w/out Cerberus, we could do away with having to die in order to play ME 2?  After all, the only reason I'm working with Cerberus in ME 2 is that I'm forced to, despite the claim that "you always have a choice, Shepard".  Lazarus Project, pfft.

Depending on your outlook, we could have chosen to work for either the Alliance, with side missions from the Council, if we let the old Council die in ME 1, or we could work for the Council, with side missions from the Alliance, if we saved the original Council.  After all, we are the first human spectre, shouldn't that be more useful than a Renegade option in an interrogation?  Either one of these would make me less likely to pull the trigger on Ash/Kaidan, since ME 2 made me feel like a terrorist most of the way through the opening of ME 3, since which ever squad mate you have, you have to either placate or shut them down to get them to let it go.

The Get over it option should have said:  Get over it, while you were sitting on your thumbs, or sticking your fingers in your ears going la la la, I can't hear anything about the Collectors, I was doing something about them, even if I didn't like the organization I had to work with to do it.  Instead, it's "yes, I was a terrorist, because I had to be"...

[UniversalCypher]

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

^^this

[fr33stylez]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They didn't. You evidently didn't engage your brain in ME1 and ME2. Seriously. If anything, there should have been an option to shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight at the start of ME2.

But there wasn't. You spend the entire game saying "DUH, OK" to everything Cerberus amd TIM says without even needing any convincing. Shepard in ME2 seriously reminds me of that kid in Thanes' loyalty who you scream "RUN! IT'S GONNA BLOW!" and he starts running without any further ado.

If they weren't trying to make Cerberus into a morally grey organization in ME2, and they were indeed so obviously evil throughout, then it's confirmed that Shepard was the biggest idiot in the entire ME trilogy.

[robertthebard]

fr33stylez wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They didn't. You evidently didn't engage your brain in ME1 and ME2. Seriously. If anything, there should have been an option to shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight at the start of ME2.

But there wasn't. You spend the entire game saying "DUH, OK" to everything Cerberus amd TIM says without even needing any convincing. Shepard in ME2 seriously reminds me of that kid in Thanes' loyalty who you scream "RUN! IT'S GONNA BLOW!" and he starts running without any further ado.

If they weren't trying to make Cerberus into a morally grey organization in ME2, and they were indeed so obviously evil throughout, then it's confirmed that Shepard was the biggest idiot in the entire ME trilogy.

I always come away feeling exactly that way.  It's sad that the default ending for a new ME3 game says I gave them the Collector ship, because I never do.  Sorry, but maybe the project working on Jack went "too far" according to TIM, but they started out testing with his approval.  This happens before/during the events of ME 1.  So, since all the knowledge I have of Cerberus comes from the games, they are a terrorist organization that claims to have the best intentions for humanity, all the while doing what ever it takes to make sure they have all the best advantages, even if they have no intention of sharing them with humanity, barring using humans to make sure their stuff works, of course.

[MassStorm]

I think that the people that just rush here to say that Cerberus was bad missed the point of OP which is that it would have been a good story potential if Shepard could have joined Cerberus at the beginning of ME3....independently if said organization was good or bad according to your personal judgement. Because values are a relative thing.

Maybe a player want to be evil, maybe a player want to be indoctrinated.....why not giving the possibility?? Time and resources i think but also the dumb mentality of the average player that see things in black and white...life is different tonality of grey and never black and white. Who thinks to divide the world in good vs evil...is either stupid or incredibly naive

[robertthebard]

MassStorm wrote...

I think that the people that just rush here to say that Cerberus was bad missed the point of OP which is that it would have been a good story potential if Shepard could have joined Cerberus at the beginning of ME3....independently if said organization was good or bad according to your personal judgement. Because values are a relative thing.

Maybe a player want to be evil, maybe a player want to be indoctrinated.....why not giving the possibility?? Time and resources i think but also the dumb mentality of the average player that see things in black and white...life is different tonality of grey and never black and white. Who thinks to divide the world in good vs evil...is either stupid or incredibly naive

I don't see anything grey about killing children to build a better biotic, but if you do, that's cool.  Of course, with Cerberus' stated goal of advancing humanity, killing children to do it seems a bit counterproductive.  I didn't want to work for an organization that spent just as much time trying to kill me as I spent trying to figure out what the hell the Conduit was, and why Saren wanted it.  Ok, maybe not just as much time, but they didn't exactly say "Hey, the Reapers are a threat, we'll dedicate our resources to helping you stop Saren" either.

Isn't it odd that TIM knows the Collectors are behind the colonies, but didn't send some anonymous messages to the Alliance command structure to try to help them figure out a way to stop them?  No, it's not odd in the slightest bit, because his goal was always to get the tech, even when he wasn't exactly sure what that tech was.  Need proof of that, look no further than EDI.  Reaper tech at work on the Normandy.  Guess the point is, if you want to play evil, that's fine, just don't tell me that Cerberus isn't evil to justify it, just play evil.  You should need no justification other than "I want to be".  I let the Council die a lot, want to know why?  Every time I went to them for help, they just deflected me.  I don't need any other justification for that than "When I needed help, they were too busy sticking their heads in the sand to pretend there wasn't a problem, why should I now stick my resources' necks out to save them"?  That's all I need, I'm perfectly comfortable with allowing them to get blown the hell up.

[fr33stylez]

robertthebard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They didn't. You evidently didn't engage your brain in ME1 and ME2. Seriously. If anything, there should have been an option to shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight at the start of ME2.

But there wasn't. You spend the entire game saying "DUH, OK" to everything Cerberus amd TIM says without even needing any convincing. Shepard in ME2 seriously reminds me of that kid in Thanes' loyalty who you scream "RUN! IT'S GONNA BLOW!" and he starts running without any further ado.

If they weren't trying to make Cerberus into a morally grey organization in ME2, and they were indeed so obviously evil throughout, then it's confirmed that Shepard was the biggest idiot in the entire ME trilogy.

I always come away feeling exactly that way.  It's sad that the default ending for a new ME3 game says I gave them the Collector ship, because I never do.  Sorry, but maybe the project working on Jack went "too far" according to TIM, but they started out testing with his approval.  This happens before/during the events of ME 1.  So, since all the knowledge I have of Cerberus comes from the games, they are a terrorist organization that claims to have the best intentions for humanity, all the while doing what ever it takes to make sure they have all the best advantages, even if they have no intention of sharing them with humanity, barring using humans to make sure their stuff works, of course.

Well, TIM at least offers you an explanation for his actions, and at least makes some effort to distance himself form 'rogue factions' in Cerberus. Evidently, this was enough for Shepard to be in Cerberus the entire game. This was enough for several members of the Alliance and Normandy SR1 to defect to Cerberus. So either Cerberus wasn't as clearly evil as people say, or Shepard, Joker, Chakwas etc. are unbeliveably stupid.

And the last scene with TIM in ME3 would suggest that TIM is not completely evil. He honestly think he's helping the goals of humanity. He can even apologize and kills himself as a 'redeeming act'.

And I'd like to see how people view the Reapers if they believe Cerberus was always 100% evil. The Reapers were presented 100X worse than Cerberus throughout the trilogy. They made no attempt to explain their actions and unlike TIM, didn't even bother saying they were trying to 'help us'. The Reapers used evil and diabolic means to indoctrinate, huskify and instigate galatic conflicts throughout the games. Even their 'harvesting' process is depicted as repulsive and an abomination...

...Then suddenly you meet the King of the Reapers in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy and he says he was helping organics all along? Everyone who believes it's so obvious Cereberus was evil all along must've chosen 'Refusal' for their last choice. Because there's no way you should be able to accept ANYTHING the Catalyst says.

[Joeybsmooth4]

ForThessia wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

what are you talking about, with holding prothean tech is not terrorism, it wasnt hurting anyone. actually it would have been worse if another species found the prothean beacon instead of the asari (picture the krogan finding it)

STG updating the genophage was necessary because the krogan would be a menace if they overcame the genophage on their own. they would have no gratitude towards anyone and would attack 

cerberus was sloppy and what they did became public knowledge, and once again they are terrorist, the other groups are parts of the military with rules

They withheld the Tech to secure the superiority and advancement of their own race above all others, despite their claims of universal unity.Every non asari species could see that as terrorism but galactic law is very clear that it's an act of treason, punishable with the harshest penalties.

I don't agree, having a hundred thousand krogan shock troops would've saved alot of worlds and shepard alot of running around.They didn't help, they provided an unnecessary hinderance to the war effort over a millenia old argument.If the krogan got upity again, we could just re-release the genophage, not hard seeing as they have no fighter patrols.I see you didn't acknowlege STG kidnapping other species for genetic alteration to use in war scenerios, interesting.

Every species is looking out for it's own and cereberus was our answer to that.You may not like their methods but their goals are respectable.

im so sorry i diddnt think i needed to adress the fact that STG was taking rabid animals for testing. are you going to storm the gates of every lab that has used mice for testing too?

and i see you diddnt acknowlege what would happen if a species other than the Asari found that beacon, interesting

Wow just best they are not advance does not make the races they did test on animals. These groups can think and reason and even talk.

[Chewin]

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

You're obviously one of them then.

[Chewin]

fr33stylez wrote...
(...) Shepard was the biggest idiot in the entire ME trilogy.

Well he was.

[ATLAS1192]

Oransel wrote...

Kohaku was a traitor of his race.

Do you even know who Kahoku WAS? He was just an Alliance Admiral trying to find out what happened to his marine squad. And just for FINDING OUT it was Cerberus, they KIDNAPPED him and KILLED him. He was NOT a traitor, and you should be publically disemboweled for your belief that he is, you indoctrinated son of a ****.

[Quackjack]

MassStorm wrote...


Isn't it odd that TIM knows the Collectors are behind the colonies, but didn't send some anonymous messages to the Alliance command structure to try to help them figure out a way to stop them?

He did, after Horizon

[Quackjack]

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Kohaku was a traitor of his race.

Do you even know who Kahoku WAS? He was just an Alliance Admiral trying to find out what happened to his marine squad. And just for FINDING OUT it was Cerberus, they KIDNAPPED him and KILLED him. He was NOT a traitor, and you should be publically disemboweled for your belief that he is, you indoctrinated son of a ****.

He was dealing the Shadow Broker, he should've not that always ends up bad

Not excusing anyone just saying

[DriftingMustang]

Yeah, Cerberus was a bag of dicks from the begining, your shep wanted to take over cerberous, my shep went from paragon in me1 to often renegade in me2 not because of anything other just being pissed off he's dealing with this racist ******. unfortunatley no one can acount for an absurd amount of possibilities because if so my shepard would have left creberous when he saw ash.