202 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathScepter]

I do agree with CSI Spectre in having the option for rejoining Cerberus or not.

[fr33stylez]

Xilizhra wrote...

And that's exactly my point about the game's narrative. Bioware wrote ME2 so that you work with Cerberus. If they were so absoultely evil as you imply, then you must accept that Shepard and the others are either terrorists or incredibly stupid to ever consider to work with them. Bioware obviously didn't make Cerberus clear-cut evil in ME2 for a reason. And this is supported by TIM distancing himself from rogue factions. It doesn't matter if he's ultimately still responsible - the game clearly shows cerberus as not some simple mustache-twirling villain....until ME3.

TIM was always that evil, but Cronus Station shows he pretty much gathered the absolute nicest people in Cerberus he could find and shoved them all onto the Normandy to make Cerberus look good for Shepard.

Besides the fact that if true, that would makes my Shepard seem to have the mindset on an infant, how was TIM able to gather these people? He didn't kidnap them, they came at their own free will.

Didn't anyone who joined Cerberus have a conscience? They were all OK joining a 'clearly evil' organization just because they like flying? Or because they like being in space? Or because they're angry at the Alliance? Isn't that terrorism?

Modifié par fr33stylez, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:54 .

[fr33stylez]

robertthebard wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Can you point me to any dialog options that enable to me to walk away prior to the SM?  Tali isn't working for Cerberus, she's working for you, as is Chakwas.  Joker went because he wanted to fly, and the Alliance grounded him, of course, he explains this to you right after you re-meet him.  But you have two options, play the game, or quit and uninstall.  There is no point in the game until after you have finished the SM that you can tell TIM to take a long walk on a short pier.  Funny you should mention the redeeming act, since you claim he's got nothing to redeem himself for.  He is, afterall, looking out for humanity, right?  So he feels so bad about doing that, his stated mission, that he has to kill himself?

People join terrorist organizations because they want to fly? Or because they 'miss space' as Chakwas says? Seriously?

And that's exactly my point about the game's narrative. Bioware wrote ME2 so that you work with Cerberus. If they were so absoultely evil as you imply, then you must accept that Shepard and the others are either terrorists or incredibly stupid to ever consider to work with them. Bioware obviously didn't make Cerberus clear-cut evil in ME2 for a reason. And this is supported by TIM distancing himself from rogue factions. It doesn't matter if he's ultimately still responsible - the game clearly shows cerberus as not some simple mustache-twirling villain....until ME3.

And try to refrain from using strawman arguments. I've never stated Cerberus or TIM's actions were noble or good at all. My point is simply that it's revisionist history to claim it was obvious Cerberus was written in the plot as absolutely evil all along, otherwise this completely contradicts the main protagonist in the game.

 Why is "huskifying" evil when the Reapers do it, but in the best interest of humanity when TIM does it?  Same result, although at least the Reapers method was more, um, merciful?  Since it used the Dragon's Teeth to do it, while the Cerberus method left the victim fully aware, feeling every bit of the transformation.  Don't take my word for this though, I read it in a codex.  That somebody has to dip to this level of hypocrisy to justify one faction over another kind of points to there being a reason, don't you think?

BTW, I don't have to accept anything SC says to choose Destroy.  I'm not sure where you get the logic of "disregarding Cerberus for what it is means you allow the Reapers to continue".  I would be more inclined to think that anyone that chose to follow TIM in 3 would choose Synthesis, it is, after all, in the best interests of humanity, isn't it?  It's certainly no different than converting living/concious humans into husks.

Again, strawman. I never said Cerberus' actions were OK and the Reapers are not. I said between the two, Cerberus was written more of a morally grey entity than the Reapers ever were. You keep harping on Cerberus being so clearly evil so answer this....Why did Shepard go along with everything they did in ME2? Do you agree that Shepard is indeed a moron then?

You last point I'm not even sure what you're saying but it's nothing I ever said. The point was, the Reapers were evil throughout the entire trilogy, moreso than Cerberus. When you meet the SC, there's no reason based on your logic you should ever consider using any of the options it presents to you, when given the option to refuse. The Reapers are shown to be evil for 99% of the ME trilogy - why would you trust anything the SC says now that you're given the option to refuse (the option you ironically stated ISN'T avialable for you in ME2 against TIM)?

Again, I can answer your whole post with one question:  Where is the option given to just walk away?  It is promised in your very first conversation with TIM, but where is it delivered?  You need only answer this question to determine why anyone playing ME 2 worked with Cerberus.

That  doesn't answer the question. Do you think shepard and cie is dumb for accepting to work with cerberus ?

Just lik how TIM is duumb fo trying t control the reapers and kill everyone ?

Again, where is the option to do anything but work with Cerberus?  You seem to miss the fact that, if you're going to play ME 2, you have no choice.  There is no option, until after the SM to tell Joker to lose the channel.  The ME 1 cast that works with you works with you.  Most, barring Joker, who is bitter from losing the only thing he loves to the Alliance, will tell you exactly that.  The rest, save Mordin and Thane, do it for the money that Cerberus has laid out, or because they work for Cerberus directly.  But again, when can Shepard tell TIM to ****** off?

You're being evasive. There's no option to leave Cerberus, and you work for them the entire game.

Now if you claim Cerberus was presented as unquestionably evil throughout the trilogy, then Bioware wrote a game in where Shepard is either:

A) An imbecile
A terrorist

Which one is it?

[robertthebard]

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Can you point me to any dialog options that enable to me to walk away prior to the SM?  Tali isn't working for Cerberus, she's working for you, as is Chakwas.  Joker went because he wanted to fly, and the Alliance grounded him, of course, he explains this to you right after you re-meet him.  But you have two options, play the game, or quit and uninstall.  There is no point in the game until after you have finished the SM that you can tell TIM to take a long walk on a short pier.  Funny you should mention the redeeming act, since you claim he's got nothing to redeem himself for.  He is, afterall, looking out for humanity, right?  So he feels so bad about doing that, his stated mission, that he has to kill himself?

People join terrorist organizations because they want to fly? Or because they 'miss space' as Chakwas says? Seriously?

And that's exactly my point about the game's narrative. Bioware wrote ME2 so that you work with Cerberus. If they were so absoultely evil as you imply, then you must accept that Shepard and the others are either terrorists or incredibly stupid to ever consider to work with them. Bioware obviously didn't make Cerberus clear-cut evil in ME2 for a reason. And this is supported by TIM distancing himself from rogue factions. It doesn't matter if he's ultimately still responsible - the game clearly shows cerberus as not some simple mustache-twirling villain....until ME3.

And try to refrain from using strawman arguments. I've never stated Cerberus or TIM's actions were noble or good at all. My point is simply that it's revisionist history to claim it was obvious Cerberus was written in the plot as absolutely evil all along, otherwise this completely contradicts the main protagonist in the game.

 Why is "huskifying" evil when the Reapers do it, but in the best interest of humanity when TIM does it?  Same result, although at least the Reapers method was more, um, merciful?  Since it used the Dragon's Teeth to do it, while the Cerberus method left the victim fully aware, feeling every bit of the transformation.  Don't take my word for this though, I read it in a codex.  That somebody has to dip to this level of hypocrisy to justify one faction over another kind of points to there being a reason, don't you think?

BTW, I don't have to accept anything SC says to choose Destroy.  I'm not sure where you get the logic of "disregarding Cerberus for what it is means you allow the Reapers to continue".  I would be more inclined to think that anyone that chose to follow TIM in 3 would choose Synthesis, it is, after all, in the best interests of humanity, isn't it?  It's certainly no different than converting living/concious humans into husks.

Again, strawman. I never said Cerberus' actions were OK and the Reapers are not. I said between the two, Cerberus was written more of a morally grey entity than the Reapers ever were. You keep harping on Cerberus being so clearly evil so answer this....Why did Shepard go along with everything they did in ME2? Do you agree that Shepard is indeed a moron then?

You last point I'm not even sure what you're saying but it's nothing I ever said. The point was, the Reapers were evil throughout the entire trilogy, moreso than Cerberus. When you meet the SC, there's no reason based on your logic you should ever consider using any of the options it presents to you, when given the option to refuse. The Reapers are shown to be evil for 99% of the ME trilogy - why would you trust anything the SC says now that you're given the option to refuse (the option you ironically stated ISN'T avialable for you in ME2 against TIM)?

Again, I can answer your whole post with one question:  Where is the option given to just walk away?  It is promised in your very first conversation with TIM, but where is it delivered?  You need only answer this question to determine why anyone playing ME 2 worked with Cerberus.

That  doesn't answer the question. Do you think shepard and cie is dumb for accepting to work with cerberus ?

Just lik how TIM is duumb fo trying t control the reapers and kill everyone ?

Again, where is the option to do anything but work with Cerberus?  You seem to miss the fact that, if you're going to play ME 2, you have no choice.  There is no option, until after the SM to tell Joker to lose the channel.  The ME 1 cast that works with you works with you.  Most, barring Joker, who is bitter from losing the only thing he loves to the Alliance, will tell you exactly that.  The rest, save Mordin and Thane, do it for the money that Cerberus has laid out, or because they work for Cerberus directly.  But again, when can Shepard tell TIM to ****** off?

You're being evasive. There's no option to leave Cerberus, and you work for them the entire game.

Now if you claim Cerberus was presented as unquestionably evil throughout the trilogy, then Bioware wrote a game in where Shepard is either:

A) An imbecile
A terrorist

Which one is it?

So your question is the ultimate strawman?  Since it's either play, or don't, and you have no option to opt out of Cerberus service.  Since it's impossible to leave, what difference does it make what your opinion is, you have two options, play the game, or don't.  You can't say "I don't like you, and I'm not working for you" and make it stick, because you can say it, you just can't ever do it, and you can be as snarky with TIM as you want, but if you're going to play ME2, you're railroaded into Cerberus service.  In my opinion, they are terrorists, and since I wanted to play ME2, I had no choice but to work with them until the end of the SM, where I could tell him to take a long walk and a short pier, take his billions of investment, and walk.  I also get the satisfaction of hearing "you're costing me money and resources" to which I wish I could have said "You're the one that wanted me brought back exactly like I am, and I despise you, if shooting your hologram would hurt you in the least, I'd do it right now".

[Kamfrenchie]

robertthebard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Can you point me to any dialog options that enable to me to walk away prior to the SM?  Tali isn't working for Cerberus, she's working for you, as is Chakwas.  Joker went because he wanted to fly, and the Alliance grounded him, of course, he explains this to you right after you re-meet him.  But you have two options, play the game, or quit and uninstall.  There is no point in the game until after you have finished the SM that you can tell TIM to take a long walk on a short pier.  Funny you should mention the redeeming act, since you claim he's got nothing to redeem himself for.  He is, afterall, looking out for humanity, right?  So he feels so bad about doing that, his stated mission, that he has to kill himself?

People join terrorist organizations because they want to fly? Or because they 'miss space' as Chakwas says? Seriously?

And that's exactly my point about the game's narrative. Bioware wrote ME2 so that you work with Cerberus. If they were so absoultely evil as you imply, then you must accept that Shepard and the others are either terrorists or incredibly stupid to ever consider to work with them. Bioware obviously didn't make Cerberus clear-cut evil in ME2 for a reason. And this is supported by TIM distancing himself from rogue factions. It doesn't matter if he's ultimately still responsible - the game clearly shows cerberus as not some simple mustache-twirling villain....until ME3.

And try to refrain from using strawman arguments. I've never stated Cerberus or TIM's actions were noble or good at all. My point is simply that it's revisionist history to claim it was obvious Cerberus was written in the plot as absolutely evil all along, otherwise this completely contradicts the main protagonist in the game.

 Why is "huskifying" evil when the Reapers do it, but in the best interest of humanity when TIM does it?  Same result, although at least the Reapers method was more, um, merciful?  Since it used the Dragon's Teeth to do it, while the Cerberus method left the victim fully aware, feeling every bit of the transformation.  Don't take my word for this though, I read it in a codex.  That somebody has to dip to this level of hypocrisy to justify one faction over another kind of points to there being a reason, don't you think?

BTW, I don't have to accept anything SC says to choose Destroy.  I'm not sure where you get the logic of "disregarding Cerberus for what it is means you allow the Reapers to continue".  I would be more inclined to think that anyone that chose to follow TIM in 3 would choose Synthesis, it is, after all, in the best interests of humanity, isn't it?  It's certainly no different than converting living/concious humans into husks.

Again, strawman. I never said Cerberus' actions were OK and the Reapers are not. I said between the two, Cerberus was written more of a morally grey entity than the Reapers ever were. You keep harping on Cerberus being so clearly evil so answer this....Why did Shepard go along with everything they did in ME2? Do you agree that Shepard is indeed a moron then?

You last point I'm not even sure what you're saying but it's nothing I ever said. The point was, the Reapers were evil throughout the entire trilogy, moreso than Cerberus. When you meet the SC, there's no reason based on your logic you should ever consider using any of the options it presents to you, when given the option to refuse. The Reapers are shown to be evil for 99% of the ME trilogy - why would you trust anything the SC says now that you're given the option to refuse (the option you ironically stated ISN'T avialable for you in ME2 against TIM)?

Again, I can answer your whole post with one question:  Where is the option given to just walk away?  It is promised in your very first conversation with TIM, but where is it delivered?  You need only answer this question to determine why anyone playing ME 2 worked with Cerberus.

That  doesn't answer the question. Do you think shepard and cie is dumb for accepting to work with cerberus ?

Just lik how TIM is duumb fo trying t control the reapers and kill everyone ?

Again, where is the option to do anything but work with Cerberus?  You seem to miss the fact that, if you're going to play ME 2, you have no choice.  There is no option, until after the SM to tell Joker to lose the channel.  The ME 1 cast that works with you works with you.  Most, barring Joker, who is bitter from losing the only thing he loves to the Alliance, will tell you exactly that.  The rest, save Mordin and Thane, do it for the money that Cerberus has laid out, or because they work for Cerberus directly.  But again, when can Shepard tell TIM to ****** off?

You're being evasive. There's no option to leave Cerberus, and you work for them the entire game.

Now if you claim Cerberus was presented as unquestionably evil throughout the trilogy, then Bioware wrote a game in where Shepard is either:

A) An imbecile
A terrorist

Which one is it?

So your question is the ultimate strawman?  Since it's either play, or don't, and you have no option to opt out of Cerberus service.  Since it's impossible to leave, what difference does it make what your opinion is, you have two options, play the game, or don't.  You can't say "I don't like you, and I'm not working for you" and make it stick, because you can say it, you just can't ever do it, and you can be as snarky with TIM as you want, but if you're going to play ME2, you're railroaded into Cerberus service.  In my opinion, they are terrorists, and since I wanted to play ME2, I had no choice but to work with them until the end of the SM, where I could tell him to take a long walk and a short pier, take his billions of investment, and walk.  I also get the satisfaction of hearing "you're costing me money and resources" to which I wish I could have said "You're the one that wanted me brought back exactly like I am, and I despise you, if shooting your hologram would hurt you in the least, I'd do it right now".

Your point is moot. Do i get to tell the council or the alliance I'm not working for them anymore and I'm tired of their incompetence ? And that I'm goin to spend the rest of my time in th night club ? I don't.  And their incompetencce is so obvious it hurts.


Besides, you do get to tell TIM to f.. off by blowing up the station.

TIM basicly offers you a brand new ship and don't really ask for anything in return until the end. What do you do that benefits him besides keeping the station if you want it ? Nothing that I can remember.

[OmegaXI]

Cerberus wasn't what you thought them to be, during the Ceberus base mission you hear how they wanted to put friendly faces around Shepard.

But if they may at one time want to support the Advancement of humanity but they fell to indocturnation, that why so many of the cerberus Ops and science teams rebelled againist TIM.

[Sajuro]

Emzamination wrote...

Cerberus was a beautiful human centric group committed to the advancement of humanity by any and all means possible.I came to believe strongly in their Ideals/goals while playing Me2 and went out of my way to let characters know I was working 'for' them everytime the opprotunity presented itself.By me2's conclusion I thought I'd be able to continue my budding career as a valued cerberus operative in me3 but alas to my great disappointment, I was forced to rejoin the 'good' alliance and kowtow to that aging relic hackett.If that wasn't bad enough, you took my boss The illusive man and forced him into being my enemy.I cringed everytime I heard my shepard auto dialogue about taking down cerberus by any means necessary.

I should've been allowed to assist cerberus in killing the council and leaving udina with sole power which would've been a titanic boost to war assets considering the citadel fleet and human superiority.Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't eradicating the council and putting a human in power an alternate point of me1's conclusion? The worst part of it all was the destruction of the cerberus base along with the entire organization.When I destroyed that base I couldn't help but feel it was not only a waste of resources but a waste of story potential.My shepard could've taken over cerberus as the new head, purged the reaper tech and restructured it back into the human centric group I came to love.It's not fair the Asari got to keep their commandos and the salarians got to keep stg but human's had to lose their special forces branch.I shall never forgive you for what you did to Cerberus or TIM, Alien lovers.

They knew the risks when they started putting lightbulbs into their operatives' heads.

[CSI_Spectre]

robertthebard wrote...

Really?  Choices didn't matter?  Wonder how it is that I met Jack at Grissom then.  Maybe it's because I chose to do her loyalty mission?  No, that can't be it, because my choices didn't matter. Hmm, wonder how it worked then.

I wonder why Tali is an admiral, instead of exiled.  Hey, Jacob found out his father was a dbag, and got to survive the SM too.  You know, Nassana(sp?) actually remembered me, from ME 1, I wonder how that happened.  My buddy Wrex is large and in charge on Tuchanka, wonder why?  Because I chose to not kill him on Virmire, but tried to talk him down instead, and it worked.  Funny that none of my choices mattered, but I can see results of all those choices, and more, from ME 1 up, all through the game.

If I had been given the choice to talk to TIM face to face at the beginning of the game, I'd pray for a Renegade shoot him in the face.

I undestand where you are coming from.  I do partially agree with you.  However, not ALL your choices are seen throughout the game as you proclaimed. 

There were big choices that you made that didn't matter at all.  The Collector's Base, The Council, Udina/Anderson, The Rachni Queen, The Vermire Survivor is basically a character swap; nothing more, and Legion's loyalty mission with the Geth were major decisions that did had negligible impact.  They definitely were not nearly as significant as they should have.

I still believe the player should have had the option to join or reject Cerberus; depending on the choices that he/she has made.  Not even giving you the option takes away choice from the player.

If one player wanted to oppose Cerberus and join the alliance and gain Spectre status and kill them, that's perfectly fine.  That's a player choice.

If a different player decided to forget about the alliance and the council and decided to rejoin Cerberus to fight the Reapers, that's also fine.  It's a preference.  That's the point I was trying to make.

[fr33stylez]

robertthebard wrote...

So your question is the ultimate strawman?  Since it's either play, or don't, and you have no option to opt out of Cerberus service.  Since it's impossible to leave, what difference does it make what your opinion is, you have two options, play the game, or don't.  You can't say "I don't like you, and I'm not working for you" and make it stick, because you can say it, you just can't ever do it, and you can be as snarky with TIM as you want, but if you're going to play ME2, you're railroaded into Cerberus service.  In my opinion, they are terrorists, and since I wanted to play ME2, I had no choice but to work with them until the end of the SM, where I could tell him to take a long walk and a short pier, take his billions of investment, and walk.  I also get the satisfaction of hearing "you're costing me money and resources" to which I wish I could have said "You're the one that wanted me brought back exactly like I am, and I despise you, if shooting your hologram would hurt you in the least, I'd do it right now".

Not a strawman at all. I've accepted the fact that there's no option to refuse Cerberus in ME2, and moved on based on that. I'm not sure why you're still using this point.

I simply want your perspective. How do you reconcile the fact that you say Cereberus was unquestionably and so obviously evil throughout the trilogy, with Shepard's (and Joker, Chakwas, etc) willingness to work with them? I personally believe the writers were indeed intending to make Cerberus morally ambiguous in ME2.

If you say that wasn't their intention, and the Cerberus was written so obviously evil throughout, then you either beleive BW decided Shepard was still brain dead after the Lazarus Project, or that BW wrote Shepard to be a terrorist.

What do you think?

[Zkyire]

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

1) Treaty of Farixen - specifically limiting the number of Dreadnought-class ships civilisations can build with relation to the Council, specifically allowing the Turians to build the most. This shows the Council (specifically the Turians) looking out for themselves. The Humans getting an embassy on the Citadel meant they had to sign it. Think about that. The Council intentionally made the Humans sign a treaty that intentionally limited their military capabilities.

2) Asari had a Prothean Beacon and hid it from everyone else. Why is this a problem? Because Council law dictates that witholding prothean technology is tantamount to treason. Yet they did it to keep themselves on top technologically.

3) The Salarians keeping the genophage ongoing through Mordin's original mission with the STG.

They're all in it for themselves.

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

Modifié par Zkyire, 15 juillet 2012 - 09:35 .

[franerr]

Cerberus sucks balls! Could not wait to stop working for them in ME2 and break TIM's face. Especially when he ****ed me over with the Collector ship mission! Had to deal with terrorist organization to defeat the Reapers but that's it. With no Reapers around I would got rid of the whole organization. Any means nesessary.

[Urdnot Amenark]

Zkyire wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

1) Treaty of Farixen - specifically limiting the number of Dreadnought-class ships civilisations can build with relation to the Council, specifically allowing the Turians to build the most. This shows the Council (specifically the Turians) looking out for themselves. The Humans getting an embassy on the Citadel meant they had to sign it. Think about that. The Council intentionally made the Humans sign a treaty that intentionally limited their military capabilities.

2) Asari had a Prothean Beacon and hid it from everyone else. Why is this a problem? Because Council law dictates that witholding prothean technology is tantamount to treason. Yet they did it to keep themselves on top technologically.

3) The Salarians keeping the genophage ongoing through Mordin's original mission with the STG.

They're all in it for themselves.

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

Cerberus was originally perfectly fine as an Alliance Black Ops organization until they went entirely rogue and started all the ridiculous experiments, etc. so even the Alliance ended up hating them. Besides, we still have Binary Helix and Exogeni for that.

[HopHazzard]

Zkyire wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

1) Treaty of Farixen - specifically limiting the number of Dreadnought-class ships civilisations can build with relation to the Council, specifically allowing the Turians to build the most. This shows the Council (specifically the Turians) looking out for themselves. The Humans getting an embassy on the Citadel meant they had to sign it. Think about that. The Council intentionally made the Humans sign a treaty that intentionally limited their military capabilities.

2) Asari had a Prothean Beacon and hid it from everyone else. Why is this a problem? Because Council law dictates that witholding prothean technology is tantamount to treason. Yet they did it to keep themselves on top technologically.

3) The Salarians keeping the genophage ongoing through Mordin's original mission with the STG.

They're all in it for themselves.

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

You do realize that the Treaty of Farixen is based on a real life naval treaty? And that the Alliance got around it the same way the signatories of the Washington Naval Treaty did, by building carriers instead? And what is so wrong with the council saying "Hey, if you want to join our club, you have to play by our rules"?

Also, as has been pointed out many times before the difference between Cerberus and all the other black ops groups run by aliens is that Cerberus isn't accountable to anyone. They're not acting on behalf of a government. They're acting on behalf of TIM and his whims.

[mauro2222]

Zkyire wrote...

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

And if everyone does it, is it moral?

Hiding behind others actions is a coward and unethical act.

[2Shepards]

my bad...

Modifié par 2Shepards, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:12 .

[2Shepards]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Roamingmachine wrote...

Oh come on OP, TIM was an obvious moustache twirler from the start. Neither the man nor the organization had any redeeming qualities and going completely nuts in ME3 was a logical conclusion to their career of incompetence and unfettered evil.

Not really.. I satrted playing ME on ME2 and to me TIM was just like the CEO of my Fortune 500 company. You know they can be evil and they certainly are not squeamish about doing bad stuff to get what they want, but they do try to stay on the "straight and narrow" good path, if they can.

TIM made a team for Sheppard with mostly good guys. Jacob, Joker, Chawkes, Ken and Gabi... He gave Sheppard 100% liberty to hire and do what she deemed best. He helped her find Garrus and Tali. The Cerberus of ME2 had it's evil research and members but we were shown that TIM was being lied to by the people at Jack's lab and the other evil cells.

ME3 twirling moustache evil TIM was a big shock to me. Indocrination explains it somewhat, but still.. was way out of character for ME2 Cerberus and TIM.

After playing ME1 though I wonder why didn't Sheppard shoot Jacob and Miranda on sight. ME1 Cerberus was evil. 

Exactly, but unlike the coporate psycopath/sociopath that will press a button and have 1000's fired from theri jobs, or sells off mortages to banks that will hike interest rates, TIM presses button, 1000's die.

Modifié par 2Shepards, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:12 .

[Gernbuster]

If you read the books, comics, codex, entries and listened to everything about Cerberus from the games, you will see that even in ME3 Cerberus isn t the evil at all. TIM is the secret renegade hero of the ME universe. Without him the galaxy would have failed against the Reapers. TIM is a Reaper expert. He studied them since Shanxi. He knew it is nearly impossible to stop them. Thats why he found Cerberus. He recognized that humanity has better chances against the Reapers. Thats why he always tried to get humanity as the leading species. He sacrificed his own moral to do cruel experiments to find a way to defeat the Reapers. He knew he can t ressist against the indoctrination. So he brought back Shepard without a control chip. He knew maybe he needs to get stoped and the only one who could do this is Commander Shepard.
As we know his research was very effective. Do you believe bringing dead people back to live is easy? Either he did research on many poor victims or he used Reaper-tech.
He understood very early that its possible to control the Reapers and that it might give humanity a great reward after the times of suffering.
even when he was indoctrinated Cerberus was still doing research, which became that dangerous to the Reapers, that they atacked and destroyed it.
You might think Cerberus is a ****/theorist group of stupid idiots. But for sure without them and the things they have done. The cycle would still continue.

[silentassassin264]

 This particularly was the biggest problem I had with ME3.  A lot of people complained about the ending but my biggest problem was the prologue and everything that sprouted from it.  First of all, out of my six pc Shepards (I didn't get ME3 for the Xbox so they don't count) only one of them would have surrendered to the Alliance after Arrival and that is because she is roleplayed to be a traumatized tykebomb who does whatever she is told to do.  Not even my paragons would willingly sit themselves out of the preparations for the Reapers coming.  My renegades sure as heck would never sideline themselves when they had a good thing going with Cerberus (aside my Infiltrator tykebomb).  The whole reason I had no problem whatsoever handing the Collector base over to TIM was I was expecting to stay in Cerberus and be an operative handling our preparations against the Reapers.  Autodialogue on Mars then says you cut ties with Cerberus after giving them the base.  That is asinine.  If you choose to give TIM the base you do not leave Cerberus.  You only leave Cerberus if you blow up the base.  

From there on out it just gets stupider and stupider.  We get dumb missions like Benning that make no sense.  We get Sur'Kesh which makes no sense.  We get the bomb on Tuchanka and Cerberus assault on Tuchanka which also make no darn sense.  Cerberus had absolutely nothing strategic to gain by any of that.  The assault on the Citadel could only end in failure.  What happens if Udina had succeeded?  If acknowledges Cerberus and gives them the Citadel, everyone on the Citadel tries to kill them and they drag Asari into the war even if they didn't want to be before.  All they would do was unite everyone faster than Shepard could and since they were to darn stupid to shut the arms, that would just mean hordes of commandos, stg, etc. would swarm in and kill them.  If Udina disavows Cerberus officially and Cerberus "retreats" from Udina led counterattack, everyone in the galaxy would still be against Cerberus and unite against them and Udina would not be able to use Cerberus connections again nor would he even try to because you just gave him the entire Citadel.  At best if Udina is actually inidoctrinated you would have an actually logical way of explaining how the Citadel was gifted to the Reapers at the end of the game but considering TIM magically gives it to them somehow anyway, logic wasn't really high on the priority list.  

Cerberus turned from shady organization the was trying to do the right thing at any cost to saturday morning cartoon villains.  They were just doing evil for the sake of doing evil.  That annoys me.  Instead of allowing my Renegade Shepard refuge by having an actual renegade organization to back me up, I get streamlined back into the alliance because they are all sparkly clean and paragon because we apparently forgot about Lord Darius, using an AI for training that we have to call a spectre to kill before anyone finds out it was not just a VI, etc.  

[fr33stylez]

silentassassin264 wrote...

 This particularly was the biggest problem I had with ME3.  A lot of people complained about the ending but my biggest problem was the prologue and everything that sprouted from it.  First of all, out of my six pc Shepards (I didn't get ME3 for the Xbox so they don't count) only one of them would have surrendered to the Alliance after Arrival and that is because she is roleplayed to be a traumatized tykebomb who does whatever she is told to do.  Not even my paragons would willingly sit themselves out of the preparations for the Reapers coming.  My renegades sure as heck would never sideline themselves when they had a good thing going with Cerberus (aside my Infiltrator tykebomb).  The whole reason I had no problem whatsoever handing the Collector base over to TIM was I was expecting to stay in Cerberus and be an operative handling our preparations against the Reapers.  Autodialogue on Mars then says you cut ties with Cerberus after giving them the base.  That is asinine.  If you choose to give TIM the base you do not leave Cerberus.  You only leave Cerberus if you blow up the base.  

From there on out it just gets stupider and stupider.  We get dumb missions like Benning that make no sense.  We get Sur'Kesh which makes no sense.  We get the bomb on Tuchanka and Cerberus assault on Tuchanka which also make no darn sense.  Cerberus had absolutely nothing strategic to gain by any of that.  The assault on the Citadel could only end in failure.  What happens if Udina had succeeded?  If acknowledges Cerberus and gives them the Citadel, everyone on the Citadel tries to kill them and they drag Asari into the war even if they didn't want to be before.  All they would do was unite everyone faster than Shepard could and since they were to darn stupid to shut the arms, that would just mean hordes of commandos, stg, etc. would swarm in and kill them.  If Udina disavows Cerberus officially and Cerberus "retreats" from Udina led counterattack, everyone in the galaxy would still be against Cerberus and unite against them and Udina would not be able to use Cerberus connections again nor would he even try to because you just gave him the entire Citadel.  At best if Udina is actually inidoctrinated you would have an actually logical way of explaining how the Citadel was gifted to the Reapers at the end of the game but considering TIM magically gives it to them somehow anyway, logic wasn't really high on the priority list.  

Cerberus turned from shady organization the was trying to do the right thing at any cost to saturday morning cartoon villains.  They were just doing evil for the sake of doing evil.  That annoys me.  Instead of allowing my Renegade Shepard refuge by having an actual renegade organization to back me up, I get streamlined back into the alliance because they are all sparkly clean and paragon because we apparently forgot about Lord Darius, using an AI for training that we have to call a spectre to kill before anyone finds out it was not just a VI, etc.  

Amen.

Cerberus was presented as much more than moustache-twirling villains in ME2. And as I've said, it makes sense considering the protagonist of the story agrees to work with them. Then ME3 came along and everything Cerberus did was idiotic and without motive.

Don't even get me started at the beginning of ME3. Sitting on Earth for 6 months doing nothing? If you played Arrival, the Reapers were within minutes of entering the relay....and the first thing Shepard does after stopping them is...going back to Earth to let them fly to the next Relay? What was the point?

Modifié par fr33stylez, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .

[Kamfrenchie]

silentassassin264 wrote...

 This particularly was the biggest problem I had with ME3.  A lot of people complained about the ending but my biggest problem was the prologue and everything that sprouted from it.  First of all, out of my six pc Shepards (I didn't get ME3 for the Xbox so they don't count) only one of them would have surrendered to the Alliance after Arrival and that is because she is roleplayed to be a traumatized tykebomb who does whatever she is told to do.  Not even my paragons would willingly sit themselves out of the preparations for the Reapers coming.  My renegades sure as heck would never sideline themselves when they had a good thing going with Cerberus (aside my Infiltrator tykebomb).  The whole reason I had no problem whatsoever handing the Collector base over to TIM was I was expecting to stay in Cerberus and be an operative handling our preparations against the Reapers.  Autodialogue on Mars then says you cut ties with Cerberus after giving them the base.  That is asinine.  If you choose to give TIM the base you do not leave Cerberus.  You only leave Cerberus if you blow up the base.  

From there on out it just gets stupider and stupider.  We get dumb missions like Benning that make no sense.  We get Sur'Kesh which makes no sense.  We get the bomb on Tuchanka and Cerberus assault on Tuchanka which also make no darn sense.  Cerberus had absolutely nothing strategic to gain by any of that.  The assault on the Citadel could only end in failure.  What happens if Udina had succeeded?  If acknowledges Cerberus and gives them the Citadel, everyone on the Citadel tries to kill them and they drag Asari into the war even if they didn't want to be before.  All they would do was unite everyone faster than Shepard could and since they were to darn stupid to shut the arms, that would just mean hordes of commandos, stg, etc. would swarm in and kill them.  If Udina disavows Cerberus officially and Cerberus "retreats" from Udina led counterattack, everyone in the galaxy would still be against Cerberus and unite against them and Udina would not be able to use Cerberus connections again nor would he even try to because you just gave him the entire Citadel.  At best if Udina is actually inidoctrinated you would have an actually logical way of explaining how the Citadel was gifted to the Reapers at the end of the game but considering TIM magically gives it to them somehow anyway, logic wasn't really high on the priority list.  

Cerberus turned from shady organization the was trying to do the right thing at any cost to saturday morning cartoon villains.  They were just doing evil for the sake of doing evil.  That annoys me.  Instead of allowing my Renegade Shepard refuge by having an actual renegade organization to back me up, I get streamlined back into the alliance because they are all sparkly clean and paragon because we apparently forgot about Lord Darius, using an AI for training that we have to call a spectre to kill before anyone finds out it was not just a VI, etc.  

this. And it als make no sense TIM would become so dumb and be suc a jerk toward Shepar if he gave him the collector base

[Irockz]

There should have been a mission early on in the game where you're ordered to go undercover and work for Cerberus, eventually being led to a moment where you're forced to steal Alliance data and bring it to, say, Kai Leng. If you did this then you would follow a different path, working under the command of Cerberus, until the end where you are commanded to shoot Anderson. You have the option of doing so or retaliating and firing at TIM. This would come with advantages, such as being able to save Thane and Mordin by ordering Kai Leng to stand down and not stab Thane and sending Cerberus troops to escort Mordin, respectively.

[Quackjack]

Zkyire wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

Cerberus was a terrorist organization. Plain and simple. Outlawed by both Alliance and Council.

Anyone who believes otherwise, didn't pay any attention to details in any of the games in the trilogy.

1) Treaty of Farixen - specifically limiting the number of Dreadnought-class ships civilisations can build with relation to the Council, specifically allowing the Turians to build the most. This shows the Council (specifically the Turians) looking out for themselves. The Humans getting an embassy on the Citadel meant they had to sign it. Think about that. The Council intentionally made the Humans sign a treaty that intentionally limited their military capabilities.

2) Asari had a Prothean Beacon and hid it from everyone else. Why is this a problem? Because Council law dictates that witholding prothean technology is tantamount to treason. Yet they did it to keep themselves on top technologically.

3) The Salarians keeping the genophage ongoing through Mordin's original mission with the STG.

They're all in it for themselves.

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

True, true, and true

Modifié par Quackjack, 15 juillet 2012 - 11:47 .

[Quackjack]

mauro2222 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

And if everyone does it, is it moral?

Hiding behind others actions is a coward and unethical act.

Let me quote Javik here
"Ask the dead if "honor" matters. Their silence is your answer."

[Gernbuster]

Quackjack wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Why shouldn't Humans have some shady **** going on to help them? All the aliens do it. Or is it only immoral for us?

And if everyone does it, is it moral?

Hiding behind others actions is a coward and unethical act.

Let me quote Javik here
"Ask the dead if "honor" matters. Their silence is your answer."

best answer ever.
/sign

[robertthebard]

fr33stylez wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So your question is the ultimate strawman?  Since it's either play, or don't, and you have no option to opt out of Cerberus service.  Since it's impossible to leave, what difference does it make what your opinion is, you have two options, play the game, or don't.  You can't say "I don't like you, and I'm not working for you" and make it stick, because you can say it, you just can't ever do it, and you can be as snarky with TIM as you want, but if you're going to play ME2, you're railroaded into Cerberus service.  In my opinion, they are terrorists, and since I wanted to play ME2, I had no choice but to work with them until the end of the SM, where I could tell him to take a long walk and a short pier, take his billions of investment, and walk.  I also get the satisfaction of hearing "you're costing me money and resources" to which I wish I could have said "You're the one that wanted me brought back exactly like I am, and I despise you, if shooting your hologram would hurt you in the least, I'd do it right now".

Not a strawman at all. I've accepted the fact that there's no option to refuse Cerberus in ME2, and moved on based on that. I'm not sure why you're still using this point.

I simply want your perspective. How do you reconcile the fact that you say Cereberus was unquestionably and so obviously evil throughout the trilogy, with Shepard's (and Joker, Chakwas, etc) willingness to work with them? I personally believe the writers were indeed intending to make Cerberus morally ambiguous in ME2.

If you say that wasn't their intention, and the Cerberus was written so obviously evil throughout, then you either beleive BW decided Shepard was still brain dead after the Lazarus Project, or that BW wrote Shepard to be a terrorist.

What do you think?

Shepard in the briefing room just before the start of the SM:  Not one more.

TIM in the holo just before the big bang that destroys his potential new toy:  Imagine how many people we can convert to husks to improve Cerberus' lot in the Galaxy, er, I mean, just think what we can do with that technology.

You do realize, that, in my first playthrough, considering events in ME 1 and 2, that's exactly why I blew the station?

Then there's posts like this one:

fr33stylez wrote...
Amen.

Cerberus was presented as much more than moustache-twirling villains in ME2. And as I've said, it makes sense considering the protagonist of the story agrees to work with them. Then ME3 came along and everything Cerberus did was idiotic and without motive.

Don't even get me started at the beginning of ME3. Sitting on Earth for 6 months doing nothing? If you played Arrival, the Reapers were within minutes of entering the relay....and the first thing Shepard does after stopping them is...going back to Earth to let them fly to the next Relay? What was the point?

So which is it, we agreed to do it, or we had no choice, since you've just said both?  Once more, from the cheap seats, if you're going to play ME 2, you have no choice.  It doesn't matter how you feel about them as an organization.  It doesn't matter if you'd rather shoot him in the face than spit on him, you're either going to work for him, or you're going to have to uninstall the game.  Do not confuse the two, they are not the same.  It's not like they can start out ME 3 asking you:  Did you choose to not play ME 2 because you couldn't refuse to work for Cerberus?