350 réponses à ce sujet

[Galifreya]

Initially I hated Control because it seemed the creepiest option. Now I hate it for the same reason, it's just a bit worse now because of Reaper Sheep's voice, coupled with that horrifyingly ominous music that sounds eerily similar to Saren's theme from ME1. Control is a perversion of Shepard's character. She would hate it.

[Haargel]

I am pro-destroy. But after seeing EDI's name on the wall in the EC I'm having doubts. Also I was a huge fan of L:egion.

I picked control in a second playthrough and was okay with it.

In a way, I think all endings are meant to be good. Haven't tried or seen synthesis yet, not sure if I ever will, the thought alone of merging....

Modifié par Haargel, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[Grimwick]

mango smoothie wrote...

People don't like Control because they don't want to admit that the Illusive Man's idea was right. People need to realize that just because someone wants to do something for one reason doesn't mean that another person would also do it for that same reason. Shepard and TIM are two very different people.

Speak for yourself please. That is most certainly not the main reason I hate control.

[legion999]

Lionel Ou wrote...

legion999 wrote...
Not everything Cerberus does is stupid.

Just their planning and execution of said plans.

Yep.

[ObserverStatus]

Uncle Jo wrote...
And TIM, whose intention was always to control the Reapers (even before he was indoctrinated) and repurpose them to his own advantage thus gaining absolute power, is all but parangon. You're following the same path, using the same means. Parangons don't crave for power, they fear it and its consequences.

I disagree, it is most often Renegades who fear power and its consquences.  Paragon Shepard allowed the Rachni and the Heretic Geth to increase the power of his anti-reaper coalition, while Renegade Shepard destroyed them because he was afraid they would turn on him. Renegade Sherpard sacrifices the Destiny Ascension and its power in order to minimize the chances that Sovereign will complete his work, while Paragon Shepard risks everything to save it.

[BigGuy28]

Mostly for me it's because you are basically saying that it's fine that the reapers have committed trillions of murders and caused thousands of species to go extinct. Shepard dying and his/her personality being used to create a Shepard AI with a god complex is pretty terrible too and I see it eventually starting the cycle again. Overall I see nothing good about control at all.

[Uncle Jo]

bobobo878 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...
And TIM, whose intention was always to control the Reapers (even before he was indoctrinated) and repurpose them to his own advantage thus gaining absolute power, is all but parangon. You're following the same path, using the same means. Parangons don't crave for power, they fear it and its consequences.

I disagree, it is most often Renegades who fear power and its consquences.  Paragon Shepard allowed the Rachni and the Heretic Geth to increase the power of his anti-reaper coalition, while Renegade Shepard destroyed them because he was afraid they would turn on him. Renegade Sherpard sacrifices the Destiny Ascension and its power in order to minimize the chances that Sovereign will complete his work, while Paragon Shepard risks everything to save it.

You missed my point. The parangon is not interested in power. He fears that power could compromise or corrupt what he is and/or that he doesn't live up to the responsabilities that come with it. He never choose it on his own will.

[babymoon]

Control is terrible because the Reapers are still around, and you have no idea what they or Shepard could possibly do in the future. They've taken trillions of lives, personally I don't see how having them around is okay. And I certainly don't see how it's a better option than destroying a race of AIs.

[MegaSovereign]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Mostly for me it's because you are basically saying that it's fine that the reapers have committed trillions of murders and caused thousands of species to go extinct. Shepard dying and his/her personality being used to create a Shepard AI with a god complex is pretty terrible too and I see it eventually starting the cycle again. Overall I see nothing good about control at all.

-Galaxy rebuilds faster
-Geth/EDI don't have to die


The Catalyst came to the conclusion that his Reaper solution won't work. Why would the Shepard AI forget the actions of his predecessor and start up his flawed solution, especially considering the Shepard AI's directives are different than the Catalyst's?

[Gogzilla]

I wanted to pick control, but it seemed a moot point when synthesis was available.

In my observations, people seem to want to have Shepard live and reunite with the LI. Anything between them and that just seems to be pushed aside. Seriously i am convinced it is just that.

[Uncle Jo]

Gogzilla wrote...

I wanted to pick control, but it seemed a moot point when synthesis was available.

In my observations, people seem to want to have Shepard live and reunite with the LI. Anything between them and that just seems to be pushed aside. Seriously i am convinced it is just that.

Cool story bro.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

I've always felt that choosing Destroy proved that the Catalyst was right.

[CrutchCricket]

Uncle Jo wrote...
You again . Sorry didn't have time till now to answer to your post on your thread. I'll try to do it asap.

Well, since the thread is about why Control is "unpopular",  the criticisms here. even the moral and "short-sighted" have their place.
Shep starting reaping before reaching the "indifference stage" is as plausible as not harming or helping. Or even losing control of the Reapers. Who knows...
The concentration of so much power in the hands of ONE single being is also a legitimate concern, even if it's only a matter of principle.

Yes, well, it would be the place... except I have yet to see an actual moral argument against Control and not just the tired old Acton cliche or shouts of "slavery! lol". And shortsightedness has no place in intelligent discussion, ever. Though, this being the internet, perhaps it's intelligent discussion that is often the odd one out;)

And Shepard reaping is not even remotely plausible. Before the disconnect, the control entity is guided by Shepard's persona and not even the most renegade douchebag thinks that's a good idea (to say nothing of there being no evidence that Shepard even buys the holokid's nonsense, at least not in Control), and after the disconnect, well that's obvious.

[Uncle Jo]

CrutchCricket wrote...


Yes, well, it would be the place... except I have yet to see an actual moral argument against Control and not just the tired old Acton cliche or shouts of "slavery! lol". And shortsightedness has no place in intelligent discussion, ever. Though, this being the internet, perhaps it's intelligent discussion that is often the odd one out;)

And Shepard reaping is not even remotely plausible. Before the disconnect, the control entity is guided by Shepard's persona and not even the most renegade douchebag thinks that's a good idea (to say nothing of there being no evidence that Shepard even buys the holokid's nonsense, at least not in Control), and after the disconnect, well that's obvious.

Reaping before disconnecting ? Why not ? Just for the hell of it, since you have the power to...

More seriously and since you're here, my main concern is exactly this period.

The deeper Shep gets involved in the galactic matters, (and she will, times after such a war really are troubled : resentment, vengeance, retaliations, opportunists, all the usual business Shep will have to deal with, in addition to the reconstruction and repair of the damages. Don't forget also that no one will really trust you. The whole on a galactic scale), the longer it will take to get out of. The greater is also the possibility to be dragged into wars you didn't even want to begin...

Don't forget also Shep is a soldier, not a politician. That's the main problem for me. Most of the time, she was given orders and executed them. I won't deny her diplomatic successes, but it was at war-times, maintaining peace is even more difficult.

The ones who'll accept to collaborate with you, could be considered as traitors by others. Some will definitely reject your help or try to separate you from your new allies. Eventually attack them. Why not ? There are always crazy ones. How are you going to react ? By bombing them ? The others could interpretate it as eventual answer if they someday disagree with you.

Let alone the ones who will never forgive you. The wounds are deep, it'll take millenias to heal (if even possible), that if you never engage yourself in any conflict. Which could also be considered as refusing assistance. More griefs...

The control ending seems cool and all, but it's for me a tragic one. By placing herself in a god-like situation, she irrevocably severed every bond that could tie her to the Galaxy. Ironically, she can't be comprehended anymore. So she'll have to disappear with the Reapers, to disconnect, voluntarily or not. The sooner, the better. For every one.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .

[Urdnot Amenark]

bobobo878 wrote...

I've been reading a few of the polls, and it seems that Control is almost always the least popular ending choice even though it is obviously the best, why is that? I know that everyone wants the Reapers dead after all they've done, but with Shepard in control, couldn't Shepard just destroy fly them all into the sun without murderizing all of Shepard's synthetic friends?  In addition to that, Shepard could have them rebuild the Mass Relays and everything else they destroyed, as seen in EC, and recycle all their Element Zero before sending them to their graves.

Also, aside from the fate of the Synthetics, Control provides the best future for Shepard himself.  Instead of dying of thirst under a pile of rocks or simply ceasing to be like in Synthesis, Shepard gets to be a god.

So now that we know that Indoctrination theory is a hoax, is the reason noone picked it because they don't want to admit that the so called "Cerberus Fanboys" were right all along?  I know that a lot of people hate Cerberus Fans for being so open minded and pragmatic, but can't you just let go of your hate to save Edi and the Geth?

They weren't "right". Cerberus would've abused this power and destroyed themselves and everyone else due to the fact that TIM was indoctrinated. I kind of find it ironic that in your claims to being openminded and "pragmatic" you've casually invalidated this notion by writing off the opinions of those who dissent. I support Cerberus in one of my playthroughs, and I don't think you'll win anyone over to our side without considering their positions appropriately.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I always thought synthesis was the least popular.

[o Ventus]

Arcadian Legend wrote...

JDee3 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Arcadian Legend wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
Last I checked, overloading your brain with electricity fries it, it doesn't "download" it to anything.

Did you miss the space magic?

^

If they can combine synthetics and organics to make a new species.. then I think they could download Shepards brain.. he's already half synthetic anyways remember? and the Crucible is a very powerful device or whatever you wanna call it

Well it's apparent purpose is as a Giant Mother******* Battery.

At this point, who knows what the f**k it is? 

First it's a weapon capable of "unquantifiable levels of destruction", then it's a power source, then I guess it's a weapon again.

[CrutchCricket]

Uncle Jo wrote...
Reaping before disconnecting ? Why not ? Just for the hell of it, since you have the power to...

Because there isn't a Shepard that just kills for the lulz? At worst he's an **** but he's still firmly on the sane side of the border.

More seriously and since you're here, my main concern is exactly this period.

The deeper Shep gets involved in the galactic matters, (and she will, times after such a war really are troubled : resentment, vengeance, retaliations, opportunists, all the usual business Shep will have to deal with, in addition to the reconstruction and repair of the damages. Don't forget also that no one will really trust you. The whole on a galactic scale), the longer it will take to get out of. The greater is also the possibility to be dragged into wars you didn't even want to begin...

I disagree. One perk of having all that power is you can pretty much leave when you want to. Remember Dr. Manhattan teleporting to Mars...

Don't forget also Shep is a soldier, not a politician. That's the main problem for me. Most of the time, she was given orders and executed them. I won't deny her diplomatic successes, but it was at war-times, maintaining peace is even more difficult.

The ones who'll accept to collaborate with you, could be considered as traitors by others. Some will definitely reject your help or try to separate you from your new allies. Eventually attack them. Why not ? There are always crazy ones. How are you going to react ? By bombing them ? The others could interpretate it as eventual answer if they someday disagree with you.

Yes, all this is true. And very much similar to the political situations in Watchmen. Like I replied in my thread, fear and tension will be rampant. Commander will be a glactic deterrent for as long as it sticks around. It's not an ideal situation by far. But I believe it is at least aware of the effect it has on people. So when the inevitable conflicts rise, I doubt it will just send in the Reapers. It could instead work through subtler means. It's there in view as a deterrent but its real power and control are excercised covertly. In this sense it's taking on aspects of Ozymandias. At least until the disconnect.

The control ending seems cool and all, but it's for me a tragic one. By placing herself in a god-like situation, she irrevocably severed every bond that could tie her to the Galaxy. Ironically, she can't be comprehended anymore. So she'll have to disappear with the Reapers, to disconnect, voluntarily or not. The sooner, the better. For every one.

Yes, but look at what you got in return. Sever your ties to the galaxy- to explore the universe.I consider it a fair deal. Others may not.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[MetioricTest]

One big reason I have against control right off the bat is something I have stated quite a few times:

The Catalyst appears before you and tells you he created the Reapers, he controls them and they are his solution.

Then he tells you that his solution is flawed and won't work. And to fix the solution he will let you do 3 options with the crucible. Two of which are Destroy and Control. He tells you all 3 options will kill you and that Destroy will also kill all synthetic life. (Ignore the fact Shepard can survive destroy, it's not relevant for this point)

Now stop for a moment... What did he JUST tell you? That HE controls the Reapers and that they don't work as a solution.... Then he tells you that the solution doesn't work anymore and he is happy for you to control or kill the Reapers.....But you have to die.

This is curious and dubious. Why can't Shepard say "Okay here is exactly what I would do if I controlled the Reapers. Repair the Mass Relays/major damage you have caused, download all the information you have into my computer on the Normandy, then blow yourselves up in a way that leaves no wreckage."

That way destroy/control happens with no negative consequences at all.

But no, this is not an option, you can't ask for it and you can't ask why The Catalyst can't do this. Then if you do pick control, the ending it presets doesn't do what I just said. Which is what my Shepard would do.

This is one problem I have with the control ending. It's very existence means that the Catalyst is either hiding something the Machine will do to you, lying about controlling the Reapers or a complete idiot.

The actual truth is that All 3 of those possibilities are wrong because really the ending/Catalyst is badly made. But nevermind that, within the story it shines a very negative light on all the endings apart from Refuse.

But anyway, you might ask "Why does that make control bad but not destroy." and the reason is that in destroy, you do at least actually destroy. In control, the actual ending itself doesn't show Shepard controlling anything. It creates an AI using Shepard's mind as a blueprint... An AI that says it understands the Reapers more and keeps them alive as guardians. Which basically means it's not Shepard in control at all, it's an AI. All you've done is create a new Catalyst. Which is no solution at all and we're given so little information about what it is or how it thinks/functions that it's impossible to speculate what this AI can/will do without going into baseless assumption fanfiction where we make guesses.

And if we're going into baseless assumption fanfiction where we make guesses.... That's not only terrible for an ending to a game, it's also a boring scenario for such fanfiction. I'd rather speculate baseless assumption fanfiction over the blooming relationship between Samara and Jack and the prodigy biotic child they produce. That's more interesting and fun than "How will an AI based on Shepard's mind that doesn't actually do what Shepard would do operate exactly?"

Problem #3: The Reapers live.

Now whether for primal "Kill the baddies" or the "following the theme of the series" or whatever, Shepard's goal is to defeat the Reapers due to the harm they have inflicted on others. The fact the Reapers live in control and synthesis is not a good feeling. It largely feels like you ultimately failed your mission.

Pretend ME3 didn't exist. You've just finished M2 and the Reapers are coming. If I told you the ending of ME3 was that the Reapers survive and infact flourish under the control of a brand new impossible to predict AI, would you consider that a victory?

And to end of, problem #4, everybody's favorite: We just said control was bad!

Throughout parts of ME1, all of ME2 and most of ME3 it's repeatedly shown and demonstrated that almost all the problems in the series are caused by people trying to control power. The Turians and The Illusive Man don't share knowledge about the Reaper artifact pre ME1 because it's an edge no one else has, The Asari keep the Prothean Beacon secret, the Salarians modify the Genophage to control the Krogan. Udina plans a coup with Ceberus. Quarians tried to control Geth. Everyone is after power. And it always ends badly for everybody.

Then back to direct Reaper control, it's revealed that the Protheans also had a split group try to control the Reapers that eventually caused their downfall. Cerberus tries to control the Reapers and fails miserably.

In the entire series both "trying to control power for your own gain." as a metaphor and "Trying to control the large aliens called the Reapers" are repeatedly displayed as bad, arrogant choices that result in miserable failure and harm to innocents.

Literally 4 minutes before you speak to the Catalyst you just had a passionate argument with TIM
over this very subject where you told him control was impossible and that he is Indoctrinated for considering it...but you change your tune because the Catalyst says so?...Erm...ok.

So tl;dr

Not clear why you can't just tell the Catalyst what you want to do, Control is always stated to be bad, Shepard doesn't actually control anybody and the Reapers continue to live.

[Jzargo]

If you listenned to vendetta(thessia vi),Cerberus was an idea,a group that thought reaper control was possible.
This idea of control was also in the prevoius cycles but they failed,cerberus also failed so why is shepard excepted from the rule?
I just don't like synthesis either because you are basically submitting to the reapers agenda.

[AndreasShepard]

bobobo878 wrote...

AndreasShepard wrote...

Control would be a pretty lame fate for Commander Shepard. He can't communicate with his loved ones, and has to live on after they all die (even Liara will die in another 900 years or so). Then all he'd have left to do is play policeman/enforcer to an entire galaxy that he has no emotional attachment to. It'd be like you're stuck playing civilization the game for all eternity with no friends or end goal. I guess you could throw all the reapers into the sun but even then you're still losing.

Why couldn't he communicate with his loved ones?  I don't remember Sovereign or Harbinger having any trouble communicating with Shepard.

The catalyst said you wouldn't be able to, all you'd have are your memories.

[AresKeith]

AndreasShepard wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

AndreasShepard wrote...

Control would be a pretty lame fate for Commander Shepard. He can't communicate with his loved ones, and has to live on after they all die (even Liara will die in another 900 years or so). Then all he'd have left to do is play policeman/enforcer to an entire galaxy that he has no emotional attachment to. It'd be like you're stuck playing civilization the game for all eternity with no friends or end goal. I guess you could throw all the reapers into the sun but even then you're still losing.

Why couldn't he communicate with his loved ones?  I don't remember Sovereign or Harbinger having any trouble communicating with Shepard.

The catalyst said you wouldn't be able to, all you'd have are your memories.

doesn't him and the Starbrat combine too?

[Cyricsservant101]

D24O wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

It isn't Shepard in the end, it's a glorified AI with a personality imprint.

Maybe in your interpertation, but the way I see it, he's Shepard's personality uploaded into a computer, not much difference. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot that is up for interpertation, the points people bring up against it, while valid, aren't how I interper this particular ending, so I have more reasons to choose it. I make it better for myself.

Exactly.

This touches on the old philosophical debate about what makes you "you".  For some people, AI Shepard is still Shepard, just in a different form.  For others, the "real" Shepard has been dead and gone since the start of ME2.  

For me, AI Shepard is still the real Shepard.  He's a benevolent peacekeeper who's willing to engage the Galaxy in a dialogue about how he should use his new-found powers for the betterment of all.  Of course, before you're allowed to make your pitch, you have to do the Shepard shuffle for five minutes straight.  That's my Paragod AI Shep's only rule.  :innocent:

Modifié par Cyricsservant101, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:16 .

[Cyricsservant101]

AndreasShepard wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

AndreasShepard wrote...

Control would be a pretty lame fate for Commander Shepard. He can't communicate with his loved ones, and has to live on after they all die (even Liara will die in another 900 years or so). Then all he'd have left to do is play policeman/enforcer to an entire galaxy that he has no emotional attachment to. It'd be like you're stuck playing civilization the game for all eternity with no friends or end goal. I guess you could throw all the reapers into the sun but even then you're still losing.

Why couldn't he communicate with his loved ones?  I don't remember Sovereign or Harbinger having any trouble communicating with Shepard.

The catalyst said you wouldn't be able to, all you'd have are your memories.

Starbrat says a lot of things. 

"Synthesis isn't something that can be forced on organics... so you should totally force it on them!"

I'd take anything he says with a grain of salt.

[Aggie Punbot]

After watching Control with the Extended Cut ending, it clearly changes Shepard . . . and not for the better, in my opinion. S/he sounds like the Reapers themselves, so convinced that the ends justify the means. In fact, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the cycle does indeed continue in another 50,000 years, and we have no way of knowing if there will be another being like Shepard around to stop them that time.

Destroy is the only ending that is guaranteed to end the Reaper threat, once and for all.