350 réponses à ce sujet

[Xellith]

bobobo878 wrote...

MikaelNovasun wrote...

Shepard is dead, he or she is not watching over anyone. The 'shepard ai" even says it is based off the memories and morals of shepard. It is devoid of emotion and is following its programming. What is to stop this AI from coming to the same "logical" conclusion the starchild AI did when faced with the same problem in the future....

Because as a fleet of reapers, he will know everything that the Starchild knew, and he would realize that harvesting organics is the wrong solution for the same reason that the Star Child realized it is the wrong solution.

Oh you mean an organic standing in his room?

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

bobobo878 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Doesn't help that you try for the previous 5 minutes in convincing TIM that it is a horrible idea.

That's a problem with the writing in the part where Shepard talks to tIM, not the ending itself.

Well in the end you create an immortal omnipotent dictator who cannot be overthrown, so yea that part kinda sucks.

[ObserverStatus]

Baldavin wrote...
3.Would you trust anyone, including yourself, with virtually unlimited power? Even if your intentions are good, would you not be tempted to use this power to its fullest potential? The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or something like that...

6.Humans generally don't live forever. Can you be sure that you won't go insane sometime in the future, even if it's in the distant future?

Shepard wouldn't have to worry about going insane or doing anything immoral, because as a living god he would DEFINE sanity and morality.

[D24O]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Doesn't help that you try for the previous 5 minutes in convincing TIM that it is a horrible idea.

That's a problem with the writing in the part where Shepard talks to tIM, not the ending itself.

Well in the end you create an immortal omnipotent dictator who cannot be overthrown, so yea that part kinda sucks.

Unless Shepard has no interest in being a dictator, which mine didn't.

Modifié par D24O, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[Baldavin]

bobobo878 wrote...
Shepard wouldn't have to worry about going insane or doing anything immoral, because as a living god he would DEFINE sanity and morality.

Kind of making my point for me.

Modifié par Baldavin, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .

[ElementL09]

I disagree with the Illusive Man, thats why. And I'm a firm believer that you can't control the Reapers and they control you. And shepard dies.

[o Ventus]

D24O wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

Doesn't help that you try for the previous 5 minutes in convincing TIM that it is a horrible idea.

That's a problem with the writing in the part where Shepard talks to tIM, not the ending itself.

Well in the end you create an immortal omnipotent dictator who cannot be overthrown, so yea that part kinda sucks.

Unless Shepard has no interest in being a dictator, which mine didn't.

It isn't Shepard in the end, it's a glorified AI with a personality imprint.

[tonnactus]

HagarIshay wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Its idiotic to think one human mind could control all the reapers(even transferred). Even more funny regarding that shepard maybee convinced the illusive man that he was wrong.

Good thing Shepard won't be a human anymore.

Transferred basicly.His "essence" was uploaded.

[ObserverStatus]

Xellith wrote...
Oh you mean an organic standing in his room?

I didn't really understand that either, but I'm sure it will all make sense to Shepard after he becomes god.

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...
Well in the end you create an immortal omnipotent dictator who cannot be overthrown, so yea that part kinda sucks.

 
That's the beauty of it, the immortal imnipotent dictator is only as despotic as Shepard desires it to be,  and if he realizes that it needs to be overthrown, he can overthrow himself.

[D24O]

o Ventus wrote...

It isn't Shepard in the end, it's a glorified AI with a personality imprint.

Maybe in your interpertation, but the way I see it, he's Shepard's personality uploaded into a computer, not much difference. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot that is up for interpertation, the points people bring up against it, while valid, aren't how I interper this particular ending, so I have more reasons to choose it. I make it better for myself.

[Baldavin]

bobobo878 wrote...
That's the beauty of it, the immortal imnipotent dictator is only as despotic as Shepard desires it to be,  and if he realizes that it needs to be overthrown, he can overthrow himself.

When was the last time a dictator overthrew himself?

[Khemi]

Taboo-XX wrote...

All of the choices are as Paragon or Renegade as you want them to be.

All are tainted by one thing or another.

You should compare Control Paragon and Control Renegade. They're significantly different, almost right from the start.

[SPOILER]

Quoting from memory: "Only now do I understand the extent of his sacrifice." vs. "Only now do I understand the potential inherent in his decision." Brrr.

And hey, you've only got a few million years of memory and rationalization of galactic genocide to draw on. No danger of drowning your, what, 30ish years of humanity, none whatsoever. :-)

[Sil]

I thought Control was the creepiest option, and to me, regardless of whether you take it as a 100% Paragon or 100% Renegade, it looked to me as if the cycle would soon continue.

[MikaelNovasun]

tonnactus wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Its idiotic to think one human mind could control all the reapers(even transferred). Even more funny regarding that shepard maybee convinced the illusive man that he was wrong.

Good thing Shepard won't be a human anymore.

Transferred basicly.His "essence" was uploaded.

 Shepard is dead. How to put this.....his/her memories and morals are digitized and used as a basis for the programming of this new god AI.

[o Ventus]

D24O wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

It isn't Shepard in the end, it's a glorified AI with a personality imprint.

Maybe in your interpertation, but the way I see it, he's Shepard's personality uploaded into a computer, not much difference. The point I'm trying to make is that there is a lot that is up for interpertation, the points people bring up against it, while valid, aren't how I interper this particular ending, so I have more reasons to choose it. I make it better for myself.

That's not my interpretation.

That's what happens. The Catalyst tells you as much. If you tell him you won't pick Control, he syas this-

"And I do not look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it."

Take that quote and the epilogue narration and it is not too large a leap of logic. Shepard AI even refers to pre-ending Shepard as "he" and "him" or "she" and "her".

Modifié par o Ventus, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[Ageless Face]

tonnactus wrote...
Transferred basicly.His "essence" was uploaded.

Yet it was established Shepard won't be an organic anymore. That means, won't have emotions to corrupt him/her. Shepard's new mind will work based on past emotions and memories, but won't have them now. It will be more like prefrences.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:28 .

[D24O]

o Ventus wrote...

That's not my interpretation.

That's what happens. The Catalyst tells you as much. If you tell him you won't pick Control, he syas this-

"And I do not look forward to being replaced by you, but I would be forced to accept it."

Take that quote and the epilogue narration and it is not too large a leap of logic. Shepard AI even refers to pre-ending Shepard as "he" and "him" or "she" and "her".

I know that the Shepalyst isn't Shepard, but it is derived from his/her persona. To what extent isn't hinted at too strongly, which is why I choose to think that he is very close to who Shepard was while human.

[Volc19]

It's not that people dislike Control a whole lot, it's just that there are more ardent fans of the other endings. Everyone and their grandmother picked Destroy, and everyone who doesn't despise Synthesis loves Syntheisis. Control is the middleground that no one really thinks about too much. It's like Refusal. Some people love it, most don't even notice it.

The notion that Control isn't actually hated my many is the lack of control-hate threads. Every day there is a new "Synthesis is stupid space-magic and turns us all into monsters" thread and a new "Did you forget about the genocide part of your ending?" thread. The only Control threads are the one long-running support thread, and threads like these that beg the question "Want a good ending? Why not Control?"

[ObserverStatus]

Baldavin wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
That's the beauty of it, the immortal imnipotent dictator is only as despotic as Shepard desires it to be,  and if he realizes that it needs to be overthrown, he can overthrow himself.

When was the last time a dictator overthrew himself?

I have no idea, but it really depends on your definition of a dictator.  In my opinion, the tradition of dictators overthrowing themselves began in 1799 when George Washington refrained from seeking a third term in office.

[Arcadian Legend]

 Haha! You got em good Bo, you got em good.

[Tealjaker94]

bobobo878 wrote...

Baldavin wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
That's the beauty of it, the immortal imnipotent dictator is only as despotic as Shepard desires it to be,  and if he realizes that it needs to be overthrown, he can overthrow himself.

When was the last time a dictator overthrew himself?

I have no idea, but it really depends on your definition of a dictator.  In my opinion, the tradition of dictators overthrowing themselves began in 1799 when George Washington refrained from seeking a third term in office.

Yes, because George Washington was obviously a dictator. Oh wait he was elected and had no law making powers. If you're looking for an actual dictator who gave up his power, my first thought is Cincinnatus. And he was also elected by the Roman Senate. Shepard has seized power and shows no intention if giving it up.

Modifié par Tealjaker94, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:38 .

[Phydeaux314]

MikaelNovasun wrote...

Shepard is dead, he or she is not watching over anyone. The 'shepard ai" even says it is based off the memories and morals of shepard. It is devoid of emotion and is following its programming. What is to stop this AI from coming to the same "logical" conclusion the starchild AI did when faced with the same problem in the future....

A few points here.

First: Shepard died, yes. Not going to argue that point, it's laid out pretty clearly. However, the Catalyst also says that Shepard's memories and thoughts will carry on, although in a different form.

There is a concept known as "consistency of thought," which essentially boils down to "it doesn't matter how, but so long as you are continuing to process new information with the same memories, experiences, and constraints any 'death' suffered is largely academic." 

Shepard died, in that his/her organic mind is now ash. Shepard lived, though, in that those thoughts and memories are now shared and hosted by a series of sentient processing engines (reapers) spread across the galaxy and presumably linked via QEC. Did Shepard die? Yes. Did Shepard live? Also yes.

Shepard's died before. The ice crystal formation from water freezing in her brain would have destroyed most of her neurons, necessitating complete regrowth and regeneration. Her entire brain would need to be rebuilt - the same as it was before, yes, with the same memories, the same thought patterns, the same layout, but new cells. Did she die there? Yes. Did she also live? Yes. The memories and morals that made her who she is persisted, and even if they're being written on a "new" brain, they still work together to make the same person. 

Take a hard drive out of a computer and put it in an identical copy without a drive. You'll be able to do exactly what you could before. Reaper!Shepard is Shepard taken from a Pentium 120 and put into a quad-core i7. There will be some time taken to adapt, some new capabilities discovered, but it will still be the same person.

[o Ventus]

bobobo878 wrote...

Baldavin wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
That's the beauty of it, the immortal imnipotent dictator is only as despotic as Shepard desires it to be,  and if he realizes that it needs to be overthrown, he can overthrow himself.

When was the last time a dictator overthrew himself?

I have no idea, but it really depends on your definition of a dictator.  In my opinion, the tradition of dictators overthrowing themselves began in 1799 when George Washington refrained from seeking a third term in office.

U.S. Presidency = dictator now, right?

[Baldavin]

bobobo878 wrote...
I have no idea, but it really depends on your definition of a dictator.  In my opinion, the tradition of dictators overthrowing themselves began in 1799 when George Washington refrained from seeking a third term in office.

So now we are only left with a problem if the Shepard goes rogue and does not realize that it needs to step down.

[Phydeaux314]

Baldavin wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
I have no idea, but it really depends on your definition of a dictator.  In my opinion, the tradition of dictators overthrowing themselves began in 1799 when George Washington refrained from seeking a third term in office.

So now we are only left with a problem if the Shepard goes rogue and does not realize that it needs to step down.

To me, this would be an argument in favor of not separating oneself from the rest of the galaxy. IDK.