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Why Saving Thane Would Not "Trivialize" or "Cheapen" His Character - An Essay


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#1
Bluecansam

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One of the most common arguments we see against saving Thane is that doing so would “trivialize” or “cheapen” the character and his storyline. We also often see the argument that Thane was introduced as a terminally ill  character, thus it was inevitable that he would die from his disease. I am here, perhaps not to convince you that  saving Thane is the right option, but hopefully to provide some compelling, logical reasons why these arguments  are fallacious and short-sighted.

You cannot trivialize what has already been made trivial

The first problem with the trivialize/cheapen argument is that, due to how Thane’s final days and death played out, he has already been trivialized. He has already been made unimportant. If we think back on Thane’s character in  Mass Effect 2, we can recall any number of long conversations with him. He told us he was dying of Kepral’s  Syndrome, yes. But there was much more to his character. He talked about religion and philosophy. Of falling in  love for the first time. Of having a family, and what it means when your work takes you away from them. Of his  people’s culture. Of guilt and regret. Even if you didn’t romance him, there is a wealth of detail given in each  conversation, and almost none of it pertains to his illness. If you completed his loyalty mission, he gains his son  back, and attempts to rebuild his relationship with him. Furthermore, if you DID romance Thane, you see that by  the time you go through the Omega 4 Relay, he is no longer at peace with dying. He expresses his fear of dying to  you in your cabin, because despite all that he’s done to prepare for his death, he now has something/someone(s) to live for.

Now, once Mass Effect 3 begins, we see a transformation of his character. You have one conversation with him  before his death. Just one. And he doesn’t speak about religion or culture or family or love. He talks about his illness. No matter what options you choose, no matter whether you romanced him or not, that is the sum total of his appearance before his death. Anything that made him who he truly was – because I hope we can all agree that the terminally ill are considered to be people before we consider them to be sick – has been stripped away. He is no longer a character, but a caricature – a mockery of his former self.

Moreover, as we progress into the fight with Kai Leng, we see further cheapening of Thane’s storyline. The fight was contrived in such a way that Thane is forced to lose. It is simply not believable that Shepard would not even attempt to intervene at any point during the fight, especially considering that s/he has a clear shot at several points during the scene. Also, it seems highly unlikely that the very best assassin in the galaxy – however ill he may be – would make such rookie mistakes as not taking a clear shot when it presented itself, and practically diving toward an opponent armed with a sword, when it’s clear that distance provides the greatest advantage. This fight reduces both Shepard and Thane to rank amateurs when they are supposed to be the very best at what they do.

Finally, the greatest insult to injury is that Thane isn’t even remembered after his death. There is no mourning period for Shepard, which is especially immersion-breaking if she romanced him. Garrus stands right in front of his name on the memorial wall, and talks about how glad he is that they didn’t have to add another name to it. Shepard is propositioned by basically every romanceable character in the game mere moments after leaving Thane’s hospital room, which is – again – especially immersion-breaking if he was romanced. If his sacrifice is so very noble, why does no one remember that he died?

Death does not necessarily make it a more realistic story.

Another argument we often hear in opposition to an option to save Thane is that his dying makes for a more realistic story. Setting aside for the moment the fact that Mass Effect 3 can hardly be considered a realistic game (space magic, anyone?), that simply isn’t a true statement. People die in real life, sure. Every day something terrible and unexpected happens to someone who doesn’t deserve it. But every day, something wonderful and unexpected also happens to someone who does deserve it. Life is not solely a series of hardships, but also moments of good fortune and joy hidden amongst the difficulties. THAT is reality. Thus, to say that Thane HAS TO die in order to add to the realism is a fallacious statement.

In fact, I argue that Thane’s death – as it was written in the game – detracts from the story’s realism. As I pointed out earlier, during Thane’s fight with Kai Leng, it is simply not believable that 1)Thane would make the rookie mistakes he did, and 2) that Shepard and her/his companions would just stand around without helping. Furthermore, when you talk to the doctor before Thane passes away, you get a strong sense of how truly contrived
his death is. Was he badly wounded? “We patched him up nicely, but he lost a lot of blood and we – the best hospital on the biggest space station in the galaxy – inexplicably don’t have enough drell blood available.” Can I go get more blood with my super fast and stealthy ship? “No, the blood thing is actually irrelevant because he’s suddenly in the final stages of Kepral’s Syndrome.” Rather than immersing the player into the story by developing a natural, inevitable end to Thane’s character, the writers make themselves quite visible here. You can almost see the writers thinking, “Oh, but if we say there isn’t enough blood, the players will want to go get more blood… We’ll just say it’s impossible and let him die of his disease anyway.” It seems that no matter what actions you should be able to take, the game bars you from taking those actions.

Moreover, Thane should not have been so close to dying as it is. The fact that he dies without attempting any of the treatments mentioned in ME2 or hinted at in the interim between ME2 and ME3 is highly suspect. The LotSB DLC mentioned that Thane was eligible for a lung transplant. Cerberus Daily News spoke of a Eupulmos Device that cured respiratory diseases by releasing medicine and micro-surgery devices directly into the lungs. With this information at Shepard’s disposal, there is no reason why s/he would have kept this to her/himself. As a friend and/or lover, s/he would not have hesitated to speak to Thane about seeking treatment. It is unrealistic that Shepard would simply allow Thane to sit around and wait to die when there were things he could have been doing then and there to extend his life by years.

What makes Thane’s lack of treatment even more unrealistic is the fact that there are treatments TODAY that could have helped him prolong his life by years. Considering that Kepral’s Syndrome is based off of the very real disease Cystic Fibrosis, there is no reason why Thane was given such a strict death sentence in ME3. It is simply unbelievable that, even though there are drug, exercise, and lung clearing therapies to treat CF (in addition to lung transplantation), none of these treatments are explored to help Thane live a longer life. It is simply unrealistic that these treatments aren’t available to him over 150 years in the future.

Saving Thane does not have to equal a “miracle cure” to Kepral’s Syndrome.

When people say that they think allowing Thane to live would “trivialize” or “cheapen” his story, I think they imagine some mildly elaborate fetch quest / MacGuffin where Shepard and Thane battle a dungeon of monsters to get deep inside a cave where a single, mystical flower grows that happens to be the ONLY CURE for Kepral’s Syndrome. To which I say, “And that’s different from the rest of ME3… how exactly?” The game is riddled with contrived quests designed to keep Shepard busy, from the random eavesdropping fetch quests to the giant motherlode of MacGuffins, the Crucible.

However, such a quest isn’t the only way to cure Thane. In fact, it could be as simple as having a conversation with Thane where Shepard either fails or succeeds in convincing him to get one of the already existing treatments (as mentioned above). In this way, it need not even be a quest at all, merely a reputation or relationship check to determine how convincing you are. Actions taken in the past could weigh heavily here, such as whether you gained Thane’s loyalty or not in ME2, whether you romanced him or not, and whether you’re a Paragon or Renegade. I personally feel prolonging Thane’s life should be difficult, so maybe only one combination of choices would result in his survival of Kai Leng’s attack. For example, a Paragon who gained Thane’s loyalty with very high reputation (for this point in the game) would result in successful treatment, with a higher chance of success if romanced, whereas any other combination would result in his eventual death. This scenario for prolonging Thane’s life would be the most realistic – far more realistic than the death scenario we were given – as it is a scenario that does in fact happen all the time in real life. A terminally ill patient refuses treatment, resigns himself
to his fate, and/or begins to define himself by his disease. But when a loved one or very good friend comes along to say “I want you to get treatment”, the strength of their relationship determines whether he has the will to see it through.

Furthermore, even if we were to cure Thane through a quest, it need not be a fetch quest / MacGuffin, and to think so is quite short-sighted. Thane is, in fact, the only ME2 squadmate without a dedicated quest (the coup attempt doesn’t count, as it has nothing to do with his personal story, and you only see him once during the KL fight). He could have a quest to help his son, Kolyat, who has gotten himself into trouble, either while working for C-Sec or running from C-Sec, depending on whether you saved him from a life of assassining or not. Like the other ME2 squadmate quests, Thane helps and you can talk to him, but he mostly works on his own on the sidelines or behind the scenes. Depending on how successful you are in the mission, Kolyat can live or die. If he lives, and if you have a high enough reputation (with a higher chance of success if Thane was romanced), you can choose to convince Kolyat to help his father seek treatment. If Kolyat dies, or your reputation is too low, Thane remains resigned to his death. Such a quest would kill two proverbial birds with one stone – it gives Thane equal treatment as a squadmate and allows for an option to save his life.

In either of these two scenarios, there is not a “miracle cure” for Kepral’s Syndrome, but rather ways to talk Thane into seeking already existing treatments that would extend his life by several years.

Dying does not make it a more meaningful / less contrived story.

Still another point of contention for the Trivialize His Character folks is the question of “why introduce a terminally ill character if he will not eventually die?”. Indeed, if you have a character with an incurable disease, it is naturally expected that he will die during the course of the story. However, I would argue that the aim of a writer is to do something unexpected or unique with the character. Therefore, BECAUSE it is expected that the terminally ill character will die, there is additional pressure on the writers to make an especially interesting or meaningful death for the character. As I’ve addressed above, I feel the writers failed in this regard, as Thane’s death was full of plot holes, and simply was not related to his personal story. (I’d also like to point out that while the prayer Thane spoke at his death was poignant and beautiful, that is not the same as saying that his death itself was meaningful.)

There are two courses for a terminally ill character to take: Living or Dying. By now, either of these scenarios is almost equally expected of the character, though “living” is perhaps slightly less expected. If Thane’s death was to be inevitable, that is not and should not be the same as being railroaded into dying. There should be struggle – a journey that leaves no other conclusion besides than his death. A contemporary example of this would be -----SPOILERS FOR HARRY POTTER 6 & 7 ------ Dumbledore in Harry Potter. Here, his cursed hand acts in a way similar to a terminal disease – Dumbledore expects to die slowly and painfully over the course of about a year. Throughout Book 6, Dumbledore downplays his importance versus Harry’s, with his shriveled hand providing a constant source of foreboding. This is further compounded after Dumbledore and Harry search for the locket Horcrux, and Dumbledore is weakened to a sickly state. Though you don’t quite understand it at the time, Snape killing Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower is a mercy, and a necessity – a sacrifice to save Draco’s soul. Throughout Book 6, and confirmed through Book 7, the reader is led along a path – not by pulling them along, but by gentle prodding – such that when all is revealed, the reader comes to the same conclusion that the author has come to: that Dumbledore’s death, though heartbreaking, was completely unavoidable. More than that, it was necessary and meaningful. -----End HP Spoilers -----

The player was not led on such a journey with Thane’s death. On the contrary, rather than the player being left with a sense that Thane’s death was inevitable, s/he is left with the sense that there was so much s/he could have done to prevent it. Why wasn’t it possible to talk to Thane about seeking treatment? Why isn’t Shepard allowed to intervene in the fight? How does Thane dying equal the Salarian councilor’s survival? (It’s not like Thane jumped in front of a sword or bullet meant for her.) Why was he the only one fighting Kai Leng in the first place? Thane’s death isn’t necessary and meaningful. It should have been avoidable, because there were no concrete reasons why it was unavoidable. The player isn’t taken on a journey, but rather dumped into a situation that was purposefully constructed to end in Thane’s death.

Living does not necessarily make it a boring/contrived/less meaningful story.

If we look at Thane’s story from the perspective of him surviving, you may wonder what possible stories there could be to make it an interesting story. Just as you have to make it meaningful for a character to die, you must also make it meaningful for a character to live. The people who wish to Save Thane – again – are not expecting a “miracle cure” where Thane just goes back to business as usual. His survival should make sense within the context of the story. And it can.

If you think about a terminally ill character such as Thane, or perhaps towards sick people you may know within your own lives, they may come to define themselves by their disease, as we see Thane does in ME3. If he is suddenly thrust into the prospect of living, how does he come to terms with it? How does he learn to redefine himself? What does he do with his life now that he knows he has more time, especially when he hadn’t planned on anything beyond the next few weeks? How do his relationships grow and change? How does he seek redemption if it isn’t conveniently found at the end of a blade? How does he deal with the fact that he has gained years to his life when the galaxy is on the brink of annihilation? These questions are particularly interesting when coupled with Shepard’s death / disappearance at the end of the game, and still even more so if he had been romanced. Their relationship was built on the knowledge that she would outlive him. How does he deal with the very real possibility that he has outlived her?

There are so many interesting, compelling stories that can be told, with Thane alive and dealing with time he didn’t think he had and a friend/lover he may yet lose. The possibilities are near endless, given enough time and creativity to see it through. There is nothing trivial or cheap about these stories, and it is a shame that they weren’t explored.

I hope that, though this essay, I have illuminated a number of reasons why an option to save Thane would not be trivial or cheap. Rather, such an option could potentially be a truly brilliant piece of storytelling, given the right circumstances. The fact that we supporters of Thane are asking this of BioWare speaks to the fact that, even though we believe Thane was poorly treated in ME3, we believe BioWare’s writers have the ability to fix this if given the time and resources. We do not believe that this option should supersede anyone else’s choice to allow Thane to die, nor do we believe this should be an easy, “miracle cure” choice. Instead, we want the option to save Thane so that his story might better suit his character and end with both realism and dignity.

(Edited to fix copy-paste/formatting fail - I really apologize for how this initially was posted!)

Użytkownik Bluecansam edytował ten post 14 lipiec 2012 - 11:59


#2
Conniving_Eagle

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You need to edit this before anyone is going to seriously read it.

#3
David7204

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I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used 'realism' as a catch-all word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 

Użytkownik David7204 edytował ten post 14 lipiec 2012 - 11:46


#4
Pantanplan

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You make good points OP. I always play as maleShep, so I didn't romance Thane, and neither does it interest me, but I liked Thane as a character. His death was very artificial and contrived, and with him finding a new thing to live for (Kolyat), it makes zero sense for him not at least attempt to cure his disease. Especially when said cure is mentioned in ME2. What you said, pretty much.

#5
Pantanplan

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David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap.

The essay itself or the formatting?

#6
Bluecansam

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You need to edit this before anyone is going to seriously read it.


I know. That's what I've been doing for the past 10 or so minutes. I copied and pasted from Word.

#7
Bluecansam

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David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used a 'realism' as a convienent word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 


I'm sorry you think that, but I do know what I'm talking about. If you'd like to actually read through it, and not blindly assume that I don't know anything about storytelling, and call me out on what you think I'm making up, please feel free to do so, so that we might actually have an intelligent conversation.

#8
Renmiri1

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David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used 'realism' as a catch-all word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 


Can you type a straight sentence without using ad hominenm ? 

#9
David7204

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You're arguing that his death was 'unrealistic' because there might have been a viable cure. And it might have been avaliable in the middle of the war. And it might have been viable at his stage of illness. And it might have taken hold. And even if it did work, that he might survive despite the extensive and possibly irreversable damage. It's twenty mights stacked on top of each other. And you're telling us it's 'unrealistic' because those mights aren't an automatic yes?

Użytkownik David7204 edytował ten post 14 lipiec 2012 - 11:59


#10
Bluecansam

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David7204 wrote...

You're arguing that his death was 'unrealistic' because there might have been a viable cure. And it might have been avaliable in the middle of the war. And it might have been viable at his stage of illness. And it might have taken hold. And even if it did work, that he might survive despite the extensive and possibly irreversable damage. It's twenty mights stacked on top of each other. And you're telling us it's 'unrealistic' because those mights aren't an automatic yes?


No. I'm saying it's unrealistic because there ARE treatments NOW that could have helped Thane's condition as well as existing treatments in-game and in-universe that were available to him. He didn't have to get a "miracle cure". Which you might have gotten, had you actually read the section titled "Saving Thane does not have to equal a 'miracle cure' for Kepral's Syndrome". Please read the whole essay before trying to argue its points.

#11
Rombomm

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I read through your entire post, and pretty much your ONLY legitimate argument is that Thane was poorly treated in the writing - one conversation, nobody remembers him.

However, that is not reason enough to let him live. While it should certainly be fixed (though it is highly unlikely that will happen) it was quite clear from the start that this romance would only end in tragedy, and you should have realised that.

Also, Thane didn't "suddenly" enter the final stages of Kepral's syndrome - he'd been in the final stages for months. When you meet him in ME3, he'd already lived a few months past his 'expiration date'... if you get a stab would when you're in the final stages of a condition that shuts down all your organs, you won't be living too much longer.

Generally, you can't get cured of a disease that is in it's final stages, either. That's why everyone is calling it a "miracle cure"

Użytkownik Rombomm edytował ten post 15 lipiec 2012 - 12:06


#12
Bluecansam

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Pantanplan wrote...

You make good points OP. I always play as maleShep, so I didn't romance Thane, and neither does it interest me, but I liked Thane as a character. His death was very artificial and contrived, and with him finding a new thing to live for (Kolyat), it makes zero sense for him not at least attempt to cure his disease. Especially when said cure is mentioned in ME2. What you said, pretty much.


Thanks!

#13
David7204

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No. Things always could have been different in any situation. You want all the benefits of a miracle cure but none of the consequences. You can't have it both ways. If it's a miracle cure, then it isn't going to be good storytelling. If it isn't a miracle cure, then it's completely realistic that things turn out badly. 

#14
Ghost

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Have I seen this thread before?

#15
Bluecansam

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Rombomm wrote...

I read through your entire post, and pretty much your ONLY legitimate argument is that Thane was poorly treated in the writing - one conversation, nobody remembers him.

However, that is not reason enough to let him live. While it should certainly be fixed (though it is highly unlikely that will happen) it was quite clear from the start that this romance would only end in tragedy, and you should have realised that.

Also, Thane didn't "suddenly" enter the final stages of Kepral's syndrome - he'd been in the final stages for months. When you meet him in ME3, he'd already lived a few months past his 'expiration date'... if you get a stab would when you're in the final stages of a condition that shuts down all your organs, you won't be living too much longer.

Generally, you can't get cured of a disease that is in it's final stages, either. That's why everyone is calling it a "miracle cure"


Thank you for reading the entire post. Much appreciated! :)

Unfortunately, the timeline of the progression of Thane's disease had been retconned. While I understand that he says his "favorite doctor gave [him] three months to live... nine months ago", in ME2, he tells Shepard that he has 8-12 months before he is incapacitated. Even if it's been a couple months from the time you meet Thane to the end of ME2, he would either JUST be getting too sick to help Shepard or not quite there yet. Not well past his expiration date like he would have you believe in ME3.

#16
Bluecansam

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Ghost1017 wrote...

Have I seen this thread before?


I only finished this essay this morning, so you can't have.

#17
David7204

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A more sensible explanation is that Thane went to multiple doctors and only told Shepard about the most dire diagnosis to make a wry joke.

#18
Bluecansam

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David7204 wrote...

No. Things always could have been different in any situation. You want all the benefits of a miracle cure but none of the consequences. You can't have it both ways. If it's a miracle cure, then it isn't going to be good storytelling. If it isn't a miracle cure, then it's completely realistic that things turn out badly. 


Sure, it could turn out badly. Which is why it would be an option. Unless you talk to him / finish his quest under very specific circumstances - X amount of reputation by X time, with loyalty/romance, Kolyat alive - he dies. You could even add a randomized checkpoint where he dies 50% of the time even if you get the right combination of factors. That's realistic to me. Just so long as there's a possibility of him living, because it's completely realistic that a sick person with a fatal disease could survive - given the right circumstances, a strong will, and a lot of luck. And you can't tell me that doesn't happen in real life because I know a few cancer survivors who would tell you otherwise.

#19
Bluecansam

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David7204 wrote...

A more sensible explanation is that Thane went to multiple doctors and only told Shepard about the most dire diagnosis to make a wry joke.


If that's what you tell yourself in your head-canon, sure. I'm taking things at face value, however.

#20
Rover Captain

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The damage to Thane's lungs because of the syndrome, would make any cure ineffective. He would need a Lazarus Project with new lungs added to him. The Syndrome may be able to be cured, but the damage is irreparable.

#21
David7204

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The fact that it could have turned out well doesn't matter. In Harry Potter, just about every death could have avoided if things had worked out a little differently. Just like violent deaths in real life. But that's not the story being told. In this story, Thane dies.

#22
Renmiri1

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Rombomm wrote...

I read through your entire post, and pretty much your ONLY legitimate argument is that Thane was poorly treated in the writing - one conversation, nobody remembers him.

However, that is not reason enough to let him live. While it should certainly be fixed (though it is highly unlikely that will happen) it was quite clear from the start that this romance would only end in tragedy, and you should have realised that.

Also, Thane didn't "suddenly" enter the final stages of Kepral's syndrome - he'd been in the final stages for months. When you meet him in ME3, he'd already lived a few months past his 'expiration date'... if you get a stab would when you're in the final stages of a condition that shuts down all your organs, you won't be living too much longer.

Generally, you can't get cured of a disease that is in it's final stages, either. That's why everyone is calling it a "miracle cure"


I love it how people who don't pay attention to Thane get to teach us Thane fans "the facts".

1) ME3 retconned Thane's death date. On ME2 he assures Sheppard he will be fit for combat for the next 8-12 months. Tha is not ALIVE, that is healthy enough to kick ass just as much as the rest of the crew. ME3 takes place 6 months after ME2 so it has been barely 8 months he can't be dying as he is on ME3. That sentence about a doctor giving him 3 months to live is pure retcon.

2) Miracle cure on a palce where Genphage gets cured years before a cure should exist ? Where Sheppard gets back from the dead ? I guess green aliens are unable to use space magic in your vision of ME then :wizard:

3) No we were told on ME2 that Thane no longer wished to die, we were also told that there were medigel, lung transplants and Hanar research "years away from the cure" (just like genophage). Bioware also posted about cure Thane on twitter and facebook http://twitpic.com/3tck7p


We have proof. You have badly researched misinformed opinions. Care to try again ?

Użytkownik Renmiri1 edytował ten post 15 lipiec 2012 - 12:36


#23
Bluecansam

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Rover Captain wrote...

The damage to Thane's lungs because of the syndrome, would make any cure ineffective. He would need a Lazarus Project with new lungs added to him. The Syndrome may be able to be cured, but the damage is irreparable.


But isn't that what a lung transplant would do? You know, you take out the crappy lungs, put in nicely working lungs...

#24
David7204

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That is not a retcon.

#25
Renmiri1

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The bottom line is that Thane's death at the hands of #worstninjaever got him to feel "epic" when his Sheppard killed Kai Lame. So Thane must die or he feels inferior.

David7204 wrote...

That is not a retcon.

 
Your powers of reasoning and logic astonish me

Użytkownik Renmiri1 edytował ten post 15 lipiec 2012 - 12:39