1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

Actually, with the way both Joker and Thane were treated... I'd think a few lessons in what exactly "terminally ill" and "handicapped" mean and how to treat those with these conditions might be called for.

[LanceSolous13]

Let's just agree that Bro!Shepard has much more Quantity of LIs over Fem!Shep. Bro!Shep also has high Quality as none of his romances are made completely pointless in ME3.

[HK-90210]

Saberchic wrote...

I guess I just have a different way of looking at Thane's story arc. For me, the message is about really knowing what it means to be alive. He reconnects with his son and finds love with femShep (even if she doesn't romance him, he still calls her Siha-- just never explains it). In essence, he finds meaning where he saw none before.

He comes to terms with it and has accepted the inevitable outcome. He speaks of this when you first meet him at the hospital. He says, "It's freeing to find no requirements placed on me. No responsiblities, no fear. It is a good end to a life." Some might call this a retcon because of the one night he shared with Shep in her cabin where he breaks down and finally admits that he's scared of dying, but I disagree. One vulnerable moment does not mean he completely changed his stance. It simply means he has moments of weakness too.

A friend of mine had a disease and died. Did she want to live? Absolutely. Did I want her to live? You bet. Did wishing this change her fate? No, it did not. So I watched her die. And do you know what we did? We spent time together. While there were a couple of times she did break down and cry, she spent most of the time she did have left enjoying simple things. She did not let the inevitability of her condition stop her from doing that. She talked a lot about what was happenening to her. She said that actually helped her help others come to terms with it as well as herself. She left this earth content with what she did, and Thane's story seems to parallel that.

Often people bring up the genophage and what a miracle cure that is, but in actuality, it's really not. Maleon worked on the genophage with Mordin. He had a much clearer idea of what exactly was going on and what had been done when he decided to try and cure it. That's a major difference than finding a disease and starting from scratch to eradicate it and trying to cure a disease that was made. Mordin was a major contributor to the making of the genophage; he's more intimately knowledgable about that than the hanar scientists are about Kepral's since he helped to create it. Add that to Maleon's data and he is already strides ahead.

I like Thane, and I am glad he found meaningness and happiness in life again. But miraculously curing him (and at this stage in his illness it would be miraculous) would cheapen his storyline. The goal was not to extend his life, but to awaken him to it once again. The focus of Thane is his emotional journey, not beating the disease, and that message is more powerful if he doesn't make it because life is precious. It's one of the things that makes his death so potent.

Fair points, all. And you don't need to convince me that Thane's death, as it occurs in game, isn't heart-wrenchingly, poingnantly beautiful. It hurts, but in a positive way, after a fasion. It reminded me a great deal of my father, who died after a prolonged battle with cancer. He had accepted his death for quite some time, and just wanted to go in peace, enjoying the time he had left.

Even if Thane was provided a chance at a cure, I'm not sure I would take it very often. I know that my primary Thanemancing Shepard wouldn't. Because I like her story as it panned out. I liked that she had to go through losing Thane. Her story became better after his loss(I can give details, but I'd probably go on a bit too long).

But as much as it didn't bother me too much that Thane was unsavable, I also don't have any problem with making it an option to save him. Because for other people, it is pretty big deal. And I can metagame to keep Thane's story the way it is, if I wish. You will never HAVE to save him. My Shep's story is better with him dead. But I'd like to see where it would go if that wasn't the case.

Plus, I'm a Jacob fan. If anybody knows what it's like to get uniformly dumped by Bioware, it's us Jacobmancers. I don't like feeling like that. And I can tell it's how a lot of Thanemancers feel. So through sheer empathy, I'd like to see them get something better than what they got. Even if it is simply more romance dialogue or the chance to vent about it to someone.

[Saberchic]

RShara wrote...
*snipping for space*

And you're right, it probably is perspective.  There are ways to handle him being cured/extended without cheapening him, but Bioware took the easy way out and just shuffled him off to the side, and completely forgot about him.  THAT cheapens him far more than extending his life ever would, imo.

If they had to cheapen him, couldn't they have done it so that he lives afterward? lol  (Yes, I would have preferred a cheap cure to a cheap death!)

Yes, they really did neglect his character big time. There should have been more content, for sure. You'll get no argument from me there. Not even a mention of him until Shep kills Kai Leng. Seriously, the writers not only dropped the ball, but they kicked it down the street, spat on it, and then stabbed it with a knife.

I would liked to have seen a scene at the memorial wall for Thane if romanced. I would also have liked others to have commented on his death too, especially if romanced. I find it appauling that characters hit on you after Thane dies. Seriousy, wth?!

Despite those wishes, I still think he shouldn't be cured. (and this is coming from someone who genuinley likes Thane)

wildannie wrote...

 @Saberchic
I am very sorry that you
lost your friend, and am glad that Thane's appearance in ME3 resonated
with you in a positive way.  However, I do not share your viewpoint. 

Thank you.

You
seem to be making assumptions about the feasibility for a cure because
it suits your perspective, but the fact is that their were various
potential treatments that were foreshadowed by bioware that should at
the very least have been explored through conversations but weren't.  If
BW had never given the fans hope with foreshadowed treatments and
online campaigns maybe a valid argument could be made that it would
'cheapen' or 'trivialize' his character but they did and therefore the
argument is weak.  Thane *had* options, they should have been explored
and been successful depending upon his loyalty and LI status.

I agree that there should have been more conversation options. Absolutely. But the fact is that there is not a cure right now. Just because it was mentioned that people were working on it, it doesn't mean it would be ready, nor help Thane at this stage. You say I'm making assumptions, but I don't see it. I think there have been more assumptions made about his cure. 

As for the Cure Campaign, I think that was Bioware's marketing department. The Cure Thane Krios Campaign was a fan movement, and I believe that marketing picked up on it, because let's face it, it's free advertising for them. I did not take that as any sort of implication that Thane would live.

There
is no amount of handwaving that can get me through the Shep Thane
romance in ME3, I shouldn't have to make up a string of excuses about
what must have happened for the story to make sense.

Nor should you have to. They should definitely think about adding more content for Thane because he barely has anything there. It's quite shocking actually. I fully support an add-on for Thane. I really do. I just don't support a cure. The message of his story is more powerful with his death. To make him live would be to cheapen it, IMO.

[RShara]

That's all that we're asking for, an option! Thanks Caston!

And um...sorry no one's going to convince me that Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Tali combined had less content than Kaidan and Garrus.

Plus Kelly, and Diana.....

[Vlk3]

Bluecansam, you summed up everything that was needed to say on this topic, thank you for taking your time to write the essay. I hope it will bring some people to support our cause.

It's sad that people who don't even read the first post keep answering here with their old song
"Thane was ill, so he must die".

Thane's death and character were already trivialized and only an option for cure, an alternative path can fix that for me. I played my another Thanemancer recently and the sadest and most heartbreaking moment was not Thane's death for me. It was the moment, where my Shep acted like he was nothing when she met him. It was the moment when she looked bored and didn't even touch his hand when he was dying. The moment when she turned away fro mhim without looking back, when he was lying bleeding on the floor. No one would treat their friend like that, and no one would treat their lover like that. And the most annoying thing: Garrus talking about Ashley's death, how it was hard and sad that they lost good friend (my Shep shot her) and blablabla. Shep just lost her lover and no one mentions him. Ever. Except Kai Leng and Shep but only when she took her hollow and unmeaningful revenge.

This is trivializing and cheapening the character.

And Thane facing the perspective of longer life than he believed to get would be much more of a good storytelling than going with "He was ill, so let's kill him quickly, so we don't have to think about proper story for him".

This is fact, he was scrapped from game, because of lack of resources. Everyone can kill a character when they don't know what to do with him, but few people have enough talent to tell another story, much more deep and touching, and actually more fitting for a well written character that Thane was in ME2. Another missed opportunity.

Edit: If there was an option, one of my Shepard, but not my canon, would let Thane die. I can separate one playthrough from another, and effect would still be great. I felt very bad when I killed all quarians on purpose. I could easily save them. It was a choice and still It was heartbreaking. I'm glad that I saved both geth and quarians in another playthrough though. It didn't feel cheap or trivial, believe me.

Modifié par Vlk3, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:00 .

[wildannie]

@Saberchic Thane being a viable transplant candidate is the stand out option I would have wanted to see explored.
Thane and Kolyat should have been on Kahje praying for the chance rather than on the citadel. Actually that would have worked well for me, Thane only contacting by email while waiting/hoping for a transplant on Kahje, depending upon shepards actions (hanar diplomat etc) Thane gets cure or dies when Kahje falls. Shep could then meet up with him before priority earth. Something like this would have given my Shepard hope and drive rather than leaving her broken and lost as the story does now.

edit : that's an internalized 'broken and lost' externally she doesn't seem to give a **** <_<

Modifié par wildannie, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .

[Saberchic]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Plus, I'm a Jacob fan. If anybody knows what it's like to get uniformly dumped by Bioware, it's us Jacobmancers. I don't like feeling like that. And I can tell it's how a lot of Thanemancers feel. So through sheer empathy, I'd like to see them get something better than what they got. Even if it is simply more romance dialogue or the chance to vent about it to someone.

My condolences on the Jacobmancing. It wasn't unitl I played manShep that I actually could appreciate Jacob as a character. After that, he was cool in my book. It wasn't right how they handled the Jacob/femShep romance.

I also would like to see Thanemancers get better treatment in ME3. I actually did romance him in ME2 (Julie Shepard loves her drell!<3). I hope Bioware does listen and give more content. I actually took part in the letter writing campaign and addressed Thane's situation (as well as Jacob's and Vega's). I mean, it's nice that Bioware wants to add more DLC like Leviathan, but I would not say no to them adding more content to already existing scenarios.

[HK-90210]

RShara wrote...

That's all that we're asking for, an option! Thanks Caston!

No problem. It's an option you should have, IMO. More options never hurt anyone. Plus, us Jacob/Thane fans need to stick together. With luck, a romance DLC will arrive at some point, if all the campaignign we're doing pays off. Hopefully it can fix enough issues that we can feel a little better about all this. It's nice to have another fanbase that feels similar to you. Both romances had player agency taken out of them, and that's a bad trend.

RShara wrote...
And um...sorry no one's going to convince me that Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Tali combined had less content than Kaidan and Garrus.

Plus Kelly, and Diana.....

Well, especially Tali. She has two flirtation scenes in the first mission with her, all the romance lines in the last mission of the Geth/Quarian arc, two cabin scenes, plus the content in the EC. Sorry, Tali has a LOT of content, romance-wise.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:07 .

[FahRENheit06]

Frankly, I felt AFTER Thane's death cheapened his character more than anything else.

I'm one of those weird people who's cool with beloved characters dying if it's done in an epic way. Mordin was a decent hero who died for something he believed in. Thane, while not getting quite the epic assassin showdown that merited his awesomeness, still died a fighter rather than sick in a hospital bed which was okay with me.

But both him and Mordin were sort of sad in the moment, then immediately forgotten for the latest trouble of the day. Then Thane is randomly remembered when you kill Kai Leng (who I renegade kill every. single. time. because breaking that stupid sword could not be more satisfying). I feel that if you don't jump into another romance, there should be an acknowledgement of FemShep's pain (which, admittedly, is probably hard to convey with the whole dialogue engine Bioware implemented).

- Ren

[wildannie]

FahRENheit06 wrote...

Frankly, I felt AFTER Thane's death cheapened his character more than anything else.

I'm one of those weird people who's cool with beloved characters dying if it's done in an epic way. Mordin was a decent hero who died for something he believed in. Thane, while not getting quite the epic assassin showdown that merited his awesomeness, still died a fighter rather than sick in a hospital bed which was okay with me.

But both him and Mordin were sort of sad in the moment, then immediately forgotten for the latest trouble of the day. Then Thane is randomly remembered when you kill Kai Leng (who I renegade kill every. single. time. because breaking that stupid sword could not be more satisfying). I feel that if you don't jump into another romance, there should be an acknowledgement of FemShep's pain (which, admittedly, is probably hard to convey with the whole dialogue engine Bioware implemented).

- Ren

It was is the final insult for me, but I would agree it is the most stark trivialization of Thane by BW, that and him not even warranting a codex entry.  

Conveying the loss of a loved one well, would have needed more than a little reaction, and we got next to nothing and absolutely nothing that was romance exclusive.  Adding any conversations to the aftermath would be too little too late for me, it would not make me pick up the game again.

Mordin's death was one of the only highlights in the game for me, very poignant, and the fact that its avoidable (even if doing so is a bit evil) makes it all the better... If only there were other reasons to replay... but alas.

Modifié par wildannie, 16 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[spamhead80]

Ghost1017 wrote...


"Straight female shepard has less options and poorer treatment in the LI department"

1. Yeah... like I said before having more content with Kaidan or Garrus alone than Ash, Miranda, Jack, and maybe even Tali is poorer treatment?

2. You look at the numbers for FemShep VS MaleShep rather than the content of each particular romance.

3. You can romance Kaidan without an import save.

4. I do agree that what they did to Jacob was "poor treatment".

Regarding 2., did you actually go through and count lines of dialogue or something? Can you make me up a really pretty graph proving your point?

Regarding 3., you can romance Ashley without an import save too. What is your point here?

[RShara]

And don't forget that Liara is a straight option for MShep.  She probably did get more content than Garrus and Kaidan combined lol.

Modifié par RShara, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[Ghost]

spamhead80 wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...


"Straight female shepard has less options and poorer treatment in the LI department"

1. Yeah... like I said before having more content with Kaidan or Garrus alone than Ash, Miranda, Jack, and maybe even Tali is poorer treatment?

2. You look at the numbers for FemShep VS MaleShep rather than the content of each particular romance.

3. You can romance Kaidan without an import save.

4. I do agree that what they did to Jacob was "poor treatment".

Regarding 2., did you actually go through and count lines of dialogue or something? Can you make me up a really pretty graph proving your point?

Regarding 3., you can romance Ashley without an import save too. What is your point here?

2. Ash-Kaidan has more dialogue and Ash never wanders the ship.
    Jack-You get one scene at the bar with her and that's it.
    Miranda-You meet her a couple times via in person or hologram and on sanctuary.
    Tali- I said maybe Tali just as point to show little these other three romance options got.

3.Other person said you need an imported save to romance Kaidan.

[Ghost]

RShara wrote...

That's all that we're asking for, an option! Thanks Caston!

And um...sorry no one's going to convince me that Ashley, Miranda, Jack, Tali combined had less content than Kaidan and Garrus.

Plus Kelly, and Diana.....

I said maybe Tali as a point and I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just stating facts whether or not you want to listen to them is your choice.

[Ghost]

RShara wrote...

And don't forget that Liara is a straight option for MShep.  She probably did get more content than Garrus and Kaidan combined lol.

She probably got more content than the whole damn squad. 

[RShara]

If we're comparing apples to apples here, again:

Ash/Kaidan: Kaidan has a bit more content, yes and wanders the ship.
Garrus/Tali: Tali has way more
Miranda/Jacob: There is no romance with Jacob
Jack/Thane: There is no romance with Thane, other than a questionable make out scene

So of the ones that you listed, by your own arguments, ONE has more, the others have less, or none.

You can't convince me because the facts say otherwise.

Plus Liara, and Kelly and Diana, sparse as they are...and well it makes it very clear, doesn't it?

[Xeyska]

Ghost1017 wrote...

2. Ash-Kaidan has more dialogue and Ash never wanders the ship.
    Jack-You get one scene at the bar with her and that's it.
    Miranda-You meet her a couple times via in person or hologram and on sanctuary.
    Tali- I said maybe Tali just as point to show little these other three romance options got.

3.Other person said you need an imported save to romance Kaidan.

While Jack and Miranda got the boot on romances for MaleShep, they're still counted as romances. It just doesn't compare to FemShep having two straight romances. Freaking two (or no straight options left if Kaidan is dead and Garrus wasn't romanced in ME2). Total count for Femshep romances is five, while MaleShep has seven.

On point three, you do not need an imported save to romance Kaidan. You just need to have him alive and pick the right dialogue options to start the romance.

Modifié par Xeyska, 17 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[coldwetn0se]

@Ghost1017 - I do believe Ash and Jack were shafted in content (those two and Samara are my favorite ladies, with your "avatar" not far behind...*grin*), and I would love to see them...well, get some love. Maybe a better way to look at this is from the "worst case" scenario:

Male Shep - If Ashley was killed on Virmire. Jack, Miranda, and Tali are dead/not romanced in ME2, and Kelly is dead/not flirted with, then the following LI's are available:
1) Liara
2) Kaidan
3) Cortez
4) Allers

Female Shepard - If Kaidan is "Virmired", if Thane/Jacob are chosen as LI's/not chosen/dead, if Garrus was not chose as LI/dead, and if Kelly is dead/not flirted with then the following LI's are available:
1) Liara
2)Traynor
3) Allers

Even though that is only one extra LI for M!Shep, there are two choices that are female for straight man!Shep, but no LI's available for straight fem!Shep.

As for the poster that was made, that we have all been referring to; I would consider that the best outcome list, and sadly straight Fem!Shep is lacking again.

I say more LOVE for all!!

[Ghost]

RShara wrote...

If we're comparing apples to apples here, again:

Ash/Kaidan: Kaidan has a bit more content, yes and wanders the ship.
Garrus/Tali: Tali has way more
Miranda/Jacob: There is no romance with Jacob
Jack/Thane: There is no romance with Thane, other than a questionable make out scene

So of the ones that you listed, by your own arguments, ONE has more, the others have less, or none.

You can't convince me because the facts say otherwise.

Plus Liara, and Kelly and Diana, sparse as they are...and well it makes it very clear, doesn't it?

1. You still add Tali even though I said I was just using it as emphasis.
2. Did you read my ealier post where I said Jacob has poor treatment?
3. Jack's romance is almost nonexistent.
4. I never listed Liara.
5. Liara is a romance option for both Sheps so your point there is invalid.
6. If you consider Kelly and Allers as LIs you might as well do the same with Vega and Samara.

[Ghost]

Xeyska wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

2. Ash-Kaidan has more dialogue and Ash never wanders the ship.
    Jack-You get one scene at the bar with her and that's it.
    Miranda-You meet her a couple times via in person or hologram and on sanctuary.
    Tali- I said maybe Tali just as point to show little these other three romance options got.

3.Other person said you need an imported save to romance Kaidan.

While Jack and Miranda got the boot on romances for MaleShep, they're still counted as romances. It just doesn't compare to FemShep having two straight romances. Freaking two (or no straight options left if Kaidan is dead and Garrus wasn't romanced in ME2). Total count for Femshep romances is five, while MaleShep has seven.

On point three, you do not need an imported save to romance Kaidan. You just need to have him alive and pick the right dialogue options to start the romance.

I'm just saying if Jack is counted as a romance so does Thane. Also, it's the same thing in ME3 where you can't romance Tali,Jack, and Miranda unless you did it in ME2. I believe the total count is six for FemShep and Seven for MaleShep but considering what they did to Jacob you are right.

Femshep
Liara
Traynor
Thane
Jacob
Kaidan 
Garrus

MaleShep
Cortez
Liara
Miranda
Jack
Kaidan
Tali
Ashley

[Ghost]

coldwetn0se wrote...

@Ghost1017 - I do believe Ash and Jack were shafted in content (those two and Samara are my favorite ladies, with your "avatar" not far behind...*grin*), and I would love to see them...well, get some love. Maybe a better way to look at this is from the "worst case" scenario:

Male Shep - If Ashley was killed on Virmire. Jack, Miranda, and Tali are dead/not romanced in ME2, and Kelly is dead/not flirted with, then the following LI's are available:
1) Liara
2) Kaidan
3) Cortez
4) Allers

Female Shepard - If Kaidan is "Virmired", if Thane/Jacob are chosen as LI's/not chosen/dead, if Garrus was not chose as LI/dead, and if Kelly is dead/not flirted with then the following LI's are available:
1) Liara
2)Traynor
3) Allers

Even though that is only one extra LI for M!Shep, there are two choices that are female for straight man!Shep, but no LI's available for straight fem!Shep.

As for the poster that was made, that we have all been referring to; I would consider that the best outcome list, and sadly straight Fem!Shep is lacking again.

I say more LOVE for all!!

They could...
Add Vega as a romance option.
Fix Jacob's.

Modifié par Ghost1017, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:05 .

[RShara]

Weren't we talking about straight options? Sorry, but Liara is obviously more female than male...

And yes, all of the ME2 romances were shafted. I thought Ash got an okay amount, Kaidan really didn't get that much more, iirc. But 2 of the 4 straight options for FemShep were removed completely. None is generally less than some

I know you said you weren't counting Tali, but she really needs to be in there to be fair across the board. Otherwise I could say, Well we shouldn't count Garrus because he got an extra date in there!

ALL LI should have equal treatment. It's just that FemShep got fewer LI's, even the small amount that the other ME2 romances got weren't available.

[spamhead80]

Ghost1017 wrote...

I'm just saying if Jack is counted as a romance so does Thane. Also, it's the same thing in ME3 where you can't romance Tali,Jack, and Miranda unless you did it in ME2. I believe the total count is six for FemShep and Seven for MaleShep but considering what they did to Jacob you are right.

Femshep
Liara
Traynor
Thane
Jacob
Kaidan 
Garrus

MaleShep
Cortez
Liara
Miranda
Jack
Kaidan
Tali
Ashley

Thane has to be knocked off of the Fem Shep list as well because he doesn't count as a romance achievement in game. If you "continue" on with him in ME3, you do not get credit for the romance (achievement on Xbox, trophy on PS3 and whatever it is on the pc). Bioware does NOT count him as a valid LI in ME3.

[Blueprotoss]

Steel Dancer wrote...

Right... I'll break this down in an easy to read and understand format shall I?

I see you start with a petty yet useless insult.

Steel Dancer wrote... 

When we first meet Thane, he's accepting of his own death. He has come to terms with his mortality and is doing his best to make things better. This is what's meant by "he was prepared for death". He sinks deeper into this state if Kolyat is lost to him.

Ironically Thane never denounnced his death especially when he knows that everyone is mortal.

Steel Dancer wrote... 

After he's romanced (and this means he will have reconnected with Kolyat) he is now afraid of dying, because of what he would lose: both his son and Shepard. He is no longer accepting of his own mortality and wishes to live and fight anew. He has awoken, once again, from the battle-sleep that he lapsed back towards after the death of his wife.

Yet you assume he's not going to die and you're going to marry him.  Thane accepted his fate way before you recruited him in ME2.

Steel Dancer wrote... 

A romanced Thane should neither want nor accept his own death. He has more than enough reasons to keep living and BioWare dropped the ball on this.


If anything Thane not surviving as an LI hurt's his character: it implies that everything that happens between Thane and Shepard has little to no effect on him. And that, romanced or not, is not true to the Thane I saw in ME2. He was someone who felt things deeply.

Yet you just contradicted Thane's entire character based on your opinion and Bioware stuck to his characterization. 

RShara wrote...
It's fine, I've said my piece now. *relaxes* 

It doesn't matter even when you ignored the facts because you're not interested in ME's overall story.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 juillet 2012 - 04:28 .