1198 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

The message isn't talking about the coup. It's talking about when Garrus is standing in front of the memorial wall, and Shepard walks up and talks to him.

He says how great it is to see the VS. No mention of Shepard having lost a friend or lover. Then he sends that text. And conveniently forgets that a name was JUST added, that he was JUST looking at.

Both times, he suffered uncontrollable Bioware Amnesia.

it's stupid.

[AresKeith]

I guess they did it because "new players" wouldn't have Thane and was too lazy to change the dialogue

[Ghost]

I could add this to my list.

[Elobart]

@Bluecansam
I completely agree.
Thane was my best friend in ME2, and I hate how the writing disrespects and trivializes him in ME3.

[coldwetn0se]

Elobart wrote...

@Bluecansam
I completely agree.
Thane was my best friend in ME2, and I hate how the writing disrespects and trivializes him in ME3.

I'm not bluecansam, but I thank you for your Thane support.....a worthy character of such. 

[Bluecansam]

Renmiri1 wrote...

OK, this picture, taken from the dialog on Normandy right after Thane dies is proof that Bioware cheapened Thane and made him irrelevant, with his "redshirt death".

Thane has just been added to the wall, what does Garrus say about it ?

Oh, hey! Strangely enough, that's my picture! I took that on my phone! It's just popping up everywhere!

[Bluecansam]

Elobart wrote...

@Bluecansam
I completely agree.
Thane was my best friend in ME2, and I hate how the writing disrespects and trivializes him in ME3.

Thank you so much for your support! And thank you for taking the time to read!

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Yet this is all based on semantics based on how the character arcs in ME2 continued with ME3.  Thane didn't want to be cured whether you romanced him or befriended him because he still wanted to die based on his bad past deeds .  

This has been bothering me for days, but I didn't want to say anything at first. But since you won't leave...

"Semantics". You're using it wrong. You obviously have no idea what it means. Semantics is the perceived meaning of a word, sign, or sentence. When you "argue over semantics", you're arguing over what words mean. Like when former President Clinton said "It depends on what your definition of "is" is." That's semantics.

We are not arguing semantics. We are presenting in-game facts. Whether you want to accept it or not, writing is not all that subjective. There are rules and conventions that writers must follow for it to be considered "good" writing. (I have an English degree. I know this stuff.) One of them is consistent character development. Thane's character, as established in ME2, does not follow a consistent path of character development in ME3. No matter whether that's BioWare's wishes for the character, no matter that this is ultimately BioWare's story, the writers MUST follow this convention in order for their work to be considered good quality. They did not. Another is Chekhov's Gun, as mentioned previously. If an element was mentioned in the story, it MUST have a purpose, or at least be addressed. Possible cures/treatments were addressed in-game. Hanar cure development, lung transplant. These were not used, not addressed. Therefore, it's bad writing. Not subjective. There are rules to writing. The ME3 writers broke them.

Also, you keep saying we're not providing constructive criticism. Um, I wrote a 5 page essay about it. It's in the OP. That's kinda why we're here. Go read it.

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

I'll gladly accept facts if you post any with a link

Yet you choos to ignore Bioware, which means you aren't interested in hearing the facts.

Roxy wrote...

Lance I think he's trying to get a rise out of you..everybody..just ignore him!

If thats the case then you shouldn't be doing the same to Bioware then. 

RShara wrote...

I love how he's claiming that Thane's original writer's edit on wikia is just an opinion.

God, my sides hurt.

Yet wikia and the supporters would be the opinion while Bioware would be the facts. Either way its Bioware's decision not a decision up to a very small group of "fans". 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:30 .

[Blueprotoss]

Emeraldfern wrote...

Oh but you do know Chris L'Etoile was a part of Mass Effect 2 don't you?
He wrote alot in that game; Legion, Thane, Ashley, the ME2 banter on the citadel, Noveria in Mass Effect 1.

Hmmm maybe this is then:

http://stormwaltz.gamerdna.com/bio/


http://stormwaltz.ga...ect-dev-diaries


http://stormwaltz.ga...t-it-used-to-be

(Look there's a link in his first paragraph...now where does it lead? Curiosity!)

http://stormwaltz.ga...-upon-the-stars

I loved how you missed the obvious as Bioware has the power to do what they whether you agree or oppose of that, which means you shouldn't be nipping at their heels based on your personal nippicks.  Haters gonna hate.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:34 .

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Yet this is all based on semantics based on how the character arcs in ME2 continued with ME3.  Thane didn't want to be cured whether you romanced him or befriended him because he still wanted to die based on his bad past deeds .  

This has been bothering me for days, but I didn't want to say anything at first. But since you won't leave...

"Semantics". You're using it wrong. You obviously have no idea what it means. Semantics is the perceived meaning of a word, sign, or sentence. When you "argue over semantics", you're arguing over what words mean. Like when former President Clinton said "It depends on what your definition of "is" is." That's semantics.

We are not arguing semantics. We are presenting in-game facts. Whether you want to accept it or not, writing is not all that subjective. There are rules and conventions that writers must follow for it to be considered "good" writing. (I have an English degree. I know this stuff.) One of them is consistent character development. Thane's character, as established in ME2, does not follow a consistent path of character development in ME3. No matter whether that's BioWare's wishes for the character, no matter that this is ultimately BioWare's story, the writers MUST follow this convention in order for their work to be considered good quality. They did not. Another is Chekhov's Gun, as mentioned previously. If an element was mentioned in the story, it MUST have a purpose, or at least be addressed. Possible cures/treatments were addressed in-game. Hanar cure development, lung transplant. These were not used, not addressed. Therefore, it's bad writing. Not subjective. There are rules to writing. The ME3 writers broke them.

Also, you keep saying we're not providing constructive criticism. Um, I wrote a 5 page essay about it. It's in the OP. That's kinda why we're here. Go read it.

It is all about semantics and it will be easier for you to move on with that thinking based on how ME is made by Bioware and they own the Developing rights to ME.

[Bluecansam]

In what way is it "all about semantics", then?

Also, of course BW owns Mass Effect. That's why we're asking them for a change to the game. Otherwise I'd do it myself. They expanded the ending, so they're willing to make changes to the game. So, what's your point?

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

In what way is it "all about semantics", then?

An example of semantics is complaining about an alteration in the script about a "cure" for Thane. 

Bluecansam wrote...

Also, of course BW owns Mass Effect. That's why we're asking them for a change to the game. Otherwise I'd do it myself. They expanded the ending, so they're willing to make changes to the game. So, what's your point?

If you really knew that Bioware owns ME then you wouldn't be making such demands with just one ME2 character and you shouldnt contradict yourself on the EC since it was in production before ME3's launch.  The point is that there's room for contructive feedback like how the Lair of the Shadow Broker did with Liara and Project  Overlord did with the Hammerhead.  Another point is that ME3 hasn't shown its potentional just like how ME1 and ME2 before their amounts of SP DLC add-ons.

[AresKeith]

where's your proof that it was in production before ME3's launch?

[LanceSolous13]

Is there honestly a way to get a mod to clear the troll out of here? It's giving me a headache.

[krukow]

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

How would potentially curing or treating Thane invaldiate his character arc?

[krukow]

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

How would potentially curing or treating Thane invaldiate his character arc?

Because none of that stuff really mattered.  It wasn't important that he resolve these things before he dies.  Because he won't be dying for a long, long time.

I mean, I wouldn't have been opposed if there'd been a way to cure him.  Heck, he's one of my favorite squaddies, so I'm sure I'd have done it in every playthrough.  I just think his impending mortality adds an extra weight to the things he does.

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

How would potentially curing or treating Thane invaldiate his character arc?

Because none of that stuff really mattered.  It wasn't important that he resolve these things before he dies.  Because he won't be dying for a long, long time.

I mean, I wouldn't have been opposed if there'd been a way to cure him.  Heck, he's one of my favorite squaddies, so I'm sure I'd have done it in every playthrough.  I just think his impending mortality adds an extra weight to the things he does.

There are at least 3 mentions to a potential treatment or cure in ME2 (Never played a FemShep to romance him, so I'm not sure if more are mentioned during the romance), plus Thane's mention of his doctors being wrong with their prognosis in ME3.

At this point, it's just drama for the sake of having drama, especially since it makes Thane look either stupid or irresponsible in the process.

Modifié par o Ventus, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:52 .

[krukow]

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

How would potentially curing or treating Thane invaldiate his character arc?

Because none of that stuff really mattered.  It wasn't important that he resolve these things before he dies.  Because he won't be dying for a long, long time.

I mean, I wouldn't have been opposed if there'd been a way to cure him.  Heck, he's one of my favorite squaddies, so I'm sure I'd have done it in every playthrough.  I just think his impending mortality adds an extra weight to the things he does.

There are at least 3 mentions to a potential treatment or cure in ME2, plus Thane's mention of his doctors being wrong with their prognosis in ME3.

At this point, it's just drama for the sake of having drama, especially since it makes Thane look either stupid or irresponsible in the process.

Well, there's a difference between being wrong in how long someone has to live, and being wrong about what disease they have(cancer patients outlive their prognosis all the time, it doesn't mean they don't have cancer).  And literally, his first or second line after you meet him is that he's dying, so I don't think it's just for the sake of drama.

It was just such a central part of his character in the second game that changing it now seems to me to be more a move for fanservice, and less a natural progression of his arc.

Just my two cents though, people are allowed to disagree with me.

[o Ventus]

krukow wrote...

Well, there's a difference between being wrong in how long someone has to live, and being wrong about what disease they have(cancer patients outlive their prognosis all the time, it doesn't mean they don't have cancer).  And literally, his first or second line after you meet him is that he's dying, so I don't think it's just for the sake of drama.

It was just such a central part of his character in the second game that changing it now seems to me to be more a move for fanservice, and less a natural progression of his arc.

Just my two cents though, people are allowed to disagree with me.

The forced drama coming from how much it's emphasized "Oh yeah, I'm going to die. I mean, there are quite a couple things I could do to treat my terminal illness, but naw, it's cool."

You know what happens when a character resolves a part of their arc? They focus on the other aspects. See: Miranda and her father after Sanctuary, or Garrus and C-Sec, Wrex and the genophage. If a cure or treatment were to exist, make it loyalty-exclusive (Hell, romance exclusive) so that Thane still has to reconcile with Kolyat.

[LanceSolous13]

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

Well, there's a difference between being wrong in how long someone has to live, and being wrong about what disease they have(cancer patients outlive their prognosis all the time, it doesn't mean they don't have cancer).  And literally, his first or second line after you meet him is that he's dying, so I don't think it's just for the sake of drama.

It was just such a central part of his character in the second game that changing it now seems to me to be more a move for fanservice, and less a natural progression of his arc.

Just my two cents though, people are allowed to disagree with me.

The forced drama coming from how much it's emphasized "Oh yeah, I'm going to die. I mean, there are quite a couple things I could do to treat my terminal illness, but naw, it's cool."

You know what happens when a character resolves a part of their arc? They focus on the other aspects. See: Miranda and her father after Sanctuary, or Garrus and C-Sec, Wrex and the genophage. If a cure or treatment were to exist, make it loyalty-exclusive (Hell, romance exclusive) so that Thane still has to reconcile with Kolyat.

Loyalty Exclusive plz. My Bro!Shepard was best friends with Thane!

[Twilight_Princess]

The same could be said for his development in the romance arc (very different to brothane’s). Why have him FEAR death and be AFRAID of dying if he’s going to die no matter what in 3??? How cruel and bizarre. Didn’t the character change matter? It renders the romance arc in ME2 pointless. Why have a character undergo such a significant change in attitude and not expand on that change in the sequel? The central arc around a romanced thane is to wake him up again, to make him want to live for something again . We think THAT should have mattered.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[RShara]

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

krukow wrote...

I don't know, doesn't that invalidate his entire character arc? Last minute reconciliaton with his son? HAHA, no, he had years to do that! Attempting to atone for his past. PShaw, it's not like he's going anywhere...

I get why lots of Thane fans want him to survive (I would be pretty angry if Ashley had to die, instead of just being allowed to die every ten minutes), but from an overall character arc, I just think it would diminish his gravitas.

My two cents.

How would potentially curing or treating Thane invaldiate his character arc?

Because none of that stuff really mattered.  It wasn't important that he resolve these things before he dies.  Because he won't be dying for a long, long time.

I mean, I wouldn't have been opposed if there'd been a way to cure him.  Heck, he's one of my favorite squaddies, so I'm sure I'd have done it in every playthrough.  I just think his impending mortality adds an extra weight to the things he does.

There are at least 3 mentions to a potential treatment or cure in ME2, plus Thane's mention of his doctors being wrong with their prognosis in ME3.

At this point, it's just drama for the sake of having drama, especially since it makes Thane look either stupid or irresponsible in the process.

Well, there's a difference between being wrong in how long someone has to live, and being wrong about what disease they have(cancer patients outlive their prognosis all the time, it doesn't mean they don't have cancer).  And literally, his first or second line after you meet him is that he's dying, so I don't think it's just for the sake of drama.

It was just such a central part of his character in the second game that changing it now seems to me to be more a move for fanservice, and less a natural progression of his arc.

Just my two cents though, people are allowed to disagree with me.

The thing is, just because you find out that you're not dying after doing all of these things, doesn't make the experience any less poignant or less of a life experience.

You don't unlearn or reverse yourself just because your impending death isn't as impending as you thought.  The person he becomes after dealing with so many major things is still going to be the person that he is, even if he's not about to die.

[Ghost]

Bluecansam wrote...

In what way is it "all about semantics", then?

Also, of course BW owns Mass Effect. That's why we're asking them for a change to the game. Otherwise I'd do it myself. They expanded the ending, so they're willing to make changes to the game. So, what's your point?

I believe EA owns the IP.