1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghost]

Bluecansam wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

Have I seen this thread before?

I only finished this essay this morning, so you can't have.

It is either A. I can see the future. or B. There are other threads saying the same thing.

Modifié par Ghost1017, 15 juillet 2012 - 12:42 .

[David7204]

They ought to, if this is how you smart you are. There's a completely simple, plausible, and realistic explanation behind Thane's dialogue. If you don't want to believe it because your hand wasn't held, that's your choice.

[Bluecansam]

David7204 wrote...

The fact that it could have turned out well doesn't matter. In Harry Potter, just about every death could have avoided if things had worked out a little differently. Just like violent deaths in real life. But that's not the story being told. In this story, Thane dies.

Then if that's the story they wanted to tell, they should have done it well. If he had to die, it should have been 1) not immersion-breakingly unbelievable, and 2) written in such a way that the player also comes to the same conclusion that the character had to die. Like Dumbledore. Or Mordin or Legion.

Also, in a book, the author doesn't have to worry about the readers as much as game writers should about players. Players have a large role in how the story plays out, such that the story in my game is not the same as what might have happened in your game. Not so with books. Thane's death COULD be a malleable event, just as Mordin's was, because this is a game where players make choices and they supposedly matter.

[Bluecansam]

Ghost1017 wrote...

It is either A. I can see the future. or B. There are other threads saying the same thing.

Maybe they are arguing for the same thing, but I say a lot in my essay that is not said elsewhere.

[Renmiri1]

Thread troll is trolling...

/ bored

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Wow.. tl;dr version?

[Bluecansam]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Wow.. tl;dr version?

I know it's long, but I expressly didn't include a tl;dr version because I make some very specific arguments, and want to have intelligent debate with those who actually took the time to read it. Cuz, you know, reading is cool.

[David7204]

So let me get this straight. It's "immersion-breakingly unbelievable" to have a character with a lethal illness die because you're completely sure that he could have been saved based on technology you're certain will work without fail despite the character's advanced state of illness because this technology was...mentioned. But when I offer a simple and plausible explanation to a line of dialogue, I'm using "headcanon" to fix a "retcon."

That about right?

[Renmiri1]

despite the character's advanced state of illness

Advanced state of illness ? You mean he was part of Sheppard's ME2 squad but he was also too sick to live ?

I don't know about your experience, but deathly ill people in advanced stages of disease don't usually run miles shooting at anything that moves. Thane did that in countless missions on ME2.

What simple plausible explanation ? The ad hominen that you posted ? Nope, insults are not explanation, try again

[David7204]

Do you have any idea what ad hominem even means?

Modifié par David7204, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:08 .

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used 'realism' as a catch-all word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 

I'm sorry I pissed in your cheerios. Now please, shut up. Really, calm the f**k down.

Modifié par o Ventus, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:11 .

[Siran]

He's dead, Jim.

Let him rest for Christ's sake.

[Bluecansam]

David7204 wrote...

So let me get this straight. It's "immersion-breakingly unbelievable" to have a character with a lethal illness die because you're completely sure that he could have been saved based on technology you're certain will work without fail despite the character's advanced state of illness because this technology was...mentioned. But when I offer a simple and plausible explanation to a line of dialogue, I'm using "headcanon" to fix a "retcon."

That about right?

Nope, not what I'm saying. Please read again. Or, at all.

[Blueprotoss]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You need to edit this before anyone is going to seriously read it.

Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.  I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

[o Ventus]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

I take it you've never done the full friendhsip path with Thane, or romanced him.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

Do you strawman in ALL of your posts? Or only when you have nothing left to say?

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

Not if you romanced him, he doesn't.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

If you can prove to me how dying by flinging yourself at a sword is honorable, or how being prompty forgotten by your friends and loved ones meant something for the galaxy, color me corrected.

[mythlover20]

I get the feeling here that none of you have ever had to sit back and watch a loved one die. No one, it is, except the Thane frienders and Thane mancers themselves.

In the end, I feel that if, and I stress IF, Thane had to die it should have been handled properly, and with respect. It wasn't. THAT is what trivialised him.

Thane does not look or act like someone with a terminal disease. A couple of coughs here and there do not a dead-man-walking make. From the symptoms he presents in ME3 he has a dose of the flu. Nothing more.

Not to mention that his disease was retconned, his life expectancy was retconned, and his romance was thrown out the window. All because Chris Hepler was too up himself to DO HIS BLOODY RESEARCH and get it right. Instead spending all his time turning EDI into a sexbot.

Seriously, compare EDI's content to Thane's. You can easily see which one had preferential treatment.

Thane-haters who can't be bothered getting their facts straight trying to drown out those who actually pay attention in class. Yeah, good luck with that, you guys. We will beat you down no matter how many times you get up. Logical arguments based on the evidence provided OVER THE TWO GAMES will always win.

[Blueprotoss]

o Ventus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

I take it you've never done the full friendhsip path with Thane, or romanced him.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

Do you strawman in ALL of your posts? Or only when you have nothing left to say?

I love how you're still resorting to straw-men when people don't agree with you.  Thane was a good character that had a suitable death whether you romances/befriended him or not.

[grey_wind]

I agree with all your points OP. Thane's friendship path was one of my favourites in ME2, and I found his romance path to have been the best written for FemShep in the entire trilogy (and I'm a dude).
His treatment in ME3 as a character was abominable (even compared to the other ME2 characters who were treated like crap). While there was a lot of potential to his character, I don't think we'll ever have a chance to see it. Him actually living through Kepral's could have been a goldmine for a talented writer who wanted to explore that issue.

[o Ventus]

Blueprotoss wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

I take it you've never done the full friendhsip path with Thane, or romanced him.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

Do you strawman in ALL of your posts? Or only when you have nothing left to say?

I love how you're still resorting to straw-men when people don't agree with you.  Thane was a good character that had a suitable death whether you romances/befriended him or not.

I know you're a troll, but do me the honors of pointing out where I strawmanned. Quote it, bold it, I don't care, jsut point it out.

And lol @ "Thane's death was suitable", unless you think being given the idiot-ball is suitable.

Modifié par o Ventus, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

Not if you romanced him, he doesn't.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

If you can prove to me how dying by flinging yourself at a sword is honorable, or how being prompty forgotten by your friends and loved ones meant something for the galaxy, color me corrected.

Kicking Kei-Lang's ass and helping to save the Consule is still a good and suitable death for his character based on his beliefs alone.

[Blueprotoss]

o Ventus wrote...

I know you're a troll, but do me the honors of pointing out where I strawmanned. Quote it, bold it, I don't care, jsut point it out.

 I see you're still resorting to insults when people don't agree with you and you still don't know what "trolling".

 

o Ventus wrote... 

And lol @ "Thane's death was suitable", unless you think being given the idiot-ball is suitable.

Apparently you haven't paid that much attention to Thane as a story element based on how you only focus on the "assassin" part of him.

[Pitznik]

Why you say his life expectancy was retconned? Either his condition simply got worse, or his ME2 doctors were wrong. Life expectancy is just an educated guess, people don't have a timer inside showing 15 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hourse and 17 minutes do death.

I agree with many of your points, except for the possibility of the cure - it shouldn't be possible, for dramatic reasons, just like Javik shouldn't happen, just like refusal should always end with deafeat.

[mythlover20]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.  I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

Thane is a character that, unlike others, has MULTIPLE character arcs, depending on the actions the player took. Specifically, whether the player romanced the character or not. If the player does NOT romance him, like you did not, he is ACCEPTING of his eventual demise and wishes to spend what time he has left with his son (as explained to a Friended Shepard).

If the player DOES romance him, he comes up to the cabin, and EXPLAINS that he is afraid of dying. A person afraid of dying DOES NOT WANT to die. Thane at the end of Mass Effect 2 and a romanced character arc HAS REASONS TO LIVE, ie, for his loved ones: Shepard and Kolyat.

Thane ONLY ever wants to die if you FAIL HIS LOYALTY MISSION, and in such cases, HE ALWAYS DIES ANYWAY at the end of Mass Effect 2, thus never showing up in ME3.

First part of your post debunked, rather easily I might add...

Second, Thane's death would have only been honourable if his character had more to him in ME3, that is, if Thane had been a real, living, vibrant person instead of a dead-man-walking, worth nothing to those who were supposed to love and care for him. It SHOULD have meant something, and only would have if we we made to feel that it WAS a sacrifice. It didn't. It was a simple, worthless NPC dying because they didn't want someone they considered more important to suffer a boo boo.

And it was cheap, because Kirrahe could easily replace him, and his death didn't feel like a sacrifice either.

It was further cheapened by Thane being automatically dead in a new game, and also by him dying anyway, off camera and with no mention, if the player misses him in Huerta and doesn't talk to him.

Second part of your post debunked, also very easily.

Furthermore, you seem to be very angry at people who make different choices in their game than you did. I suppose this means that you are angry at people who had Mordin live in their games, or who chose a different ending than you did.

What? You aren't? Then what the hell are you doing now? Hypocritical little bugger.

Oooh, yes, I called you out on that. Don't like it did you.

Apologies to everyone else, I'm feeling rather perturbed right now. I'll just go hop over to dA and interact with rational people now.

[mythlover20]

grey_wind wrote...

I agree with all your points OP. Thane's friendship path was one of my favourites in ME2, and I found his romance path to have been the best written for FemShep in the entire trilogy (and I'm a dude).
His treatment in ME3 as a character was abominable (even compared to the other ME2 characters who were treated like crap). While there was a lot of potential to his character, I don't think we'll ever have a chance to see it. Him actually living through Kepral's could have been a goldmine for a talented writer who wanted to explore that issue.

Thank you for your support love. It is much appreciated.