1198 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

RShara wrote...

That's fine, and I have no problems with you feeling that way. What we're asking for is an option to take another path. No one would be forced into a cure (which shouldn't be a miracle cure, it should come naturally from the events in the story), but they can choose what to do.

That's not really too much to ask for, is it?

^

[Blueprotoss]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

That's not the point. The point is that he was given a full reccomendation for a Lung Transplant and it was never brought up again. If there is a full reccomendation for a Lung Transplant, Then Thane is perfectly able to get a Lung Transplant. End of story.

Yet  he isn't a perfect candidate while you're still forgetting about the lack of knowledge on the Drell and Kepral's Syndrome.  Its easy to say that he would be "okay" when you don't have anything more then a very small mention in LotSB.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

How is saying its a cop out a cop out? I don't think you understand what a cop out is.

Ahem.

Writer Cop out - When the story builds towards one direction and then suddenly goes in the direction of a less ambitious/less satisfying ending, or is never ended at all.

Opinion doesn't override the writer in a story or an established universe.  I highly doubt you would say the same thing to James Cameron with one of his movies or Stephen King with one of his books.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

When you write in information like this, Its called a Chekhov's Gun, a form of foreshadowing.

Chekhov's Gun - "If you say in the first chapter that there's a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapters it absolutely must go off. If its not going to be fired, It simply shouldn't be hanging there." -Anton Chekhov

The same thing about the Dark Energy subplot. Its never discussed or touched upon ever again even though it was the plot of Tali's Loyalty Mission. It is another unfired Chekhov's Gun, just like Thane's cures.

You're causing a paradox here based on hindsight since the Reapers weren't about Dark Energy and Thane wasn't cured in ME3.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

BUT HE WANTED TO LIVE GOD DAMN IT! I've quoted this back on Page 20. I suggest you read it again. Thane in Mass Effect 2 wanted to live while that character development was utterly ignored in ME3.

Also, There is a difference between wanting to die and accepting of death.

Thane accepted his death a long time ago before Shepard became a friend, companion, or lover.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

BECAUSE THEY DON'T DIE EVERY GODDAMN PLAYTHROUGH.

You can save Miranda.
You can save Kelly.
You can save Jack.

You can't save Thane no matter what happens.

You seem to forget that if they die its part of the story and if they live its part of the story.

LanceSolous13 wrote...  

I remember there being complaints about Jack being absent for the entire game till she became a Phantom at Cronos Station. There was an uproar about that till someone informed them that you had to do Random Side Mission #2784 do save her.

There was also an uproar about Kelly and Miranda, but those had the same resolutions as Jack; someone figured out you had to do X, Y, or Z to save them.

Thane doesn't have that and thus, here we are upset about that.

Yet all of these complaints can be said about everyone of the ME2 even if they weren't a LI, which its useless to combat.

[coldwetn0se]

RShara wrote...

RShara wrote...

That's fine, and I have no problems with you feeling that way. What we're asking for is an option to take another path. No one would be forced into a cure (which shouldn't be a miracle cure, it should come naturally from the events in the story), but they can choose what to do.

That's not really too much to ask for, is it?

^

^

[Blueprotoss]

Squeegee83 wrote...

A) I don’t quite understand these “insults” you are talking about or how I am misusing the word “Troll”. You are the only one; out of the many months I have been debating to call me a troll. I feel at this point we are just beating around the brush and getting nowhere on the subject. However, I can ensure you that I do not control this fanbase or any one in it. How they choose to respond back/think of you is of their own choice. I have held no influence in it. They all think and speak for themselves and if they by chance think you are a troll, well you need to take it up with them. Yes?

Either way you do have the power to sway the abuse of words just like some of been abusing the word "troll" since ignoranace will only create more ignorance.  It seems like this has become a better place based on lowered tones and a couple ignorant people leaving while I'm not a fan of bullying similar to Will MacAvoy in the Newsroom.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

I wouldn’t call it sympathy, because how many people are truly going to understand a situation unless they have been there? If someone chooses to share a tragedy, then it should be respected. In my case, I was simply stating what I have been through briefly so you can better understand the person in whom you are debating. My intention was not to start a debate about it but I see we are heading down this direction.

I can ensure you that I haven’t been influence by the media because the time I came back and had to force myself to watch the news about it, I found myself late into it. “Joker” is something I felt that night and held onto until this day and it’s what I will have to state on trial in a year from now.

I hope all will be well with your recovery and I'm glad we understand both of our views.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

C) I am very sorry to hear about your lost, it’s never easy losing a love one. There are some who connected with Thane because of their own personal experience in death, (like you) and was hoping Thane would provide an outcome that most cannot hope for in real life. Can you understand this at least?

To each their own while I'll answer the best I can.

Squeegee83 wrote...  

~~~

I have noticed that there are three viewpoints on the issue in which people will choose to debate from:

Facts: There were facts given in the game/through BioWare about curing Thane.

Storyline: Non-Romance vs. Romance- Thane’s storyline played out different for each one.

Personal Experience:  How/why people connected to Thane due to their own personal experience.

I debate from personal experience and speak out for other people’s personal experiences. It’s what motivated me to start a campaign. It doesn’t make me a troll; I just fall into a different category. If you do not like debating me, then don’t but please, trying to knock me down just because ya may not be comfortable/willing to debate me on this level is kind of silly.

Personally I liked Thane's character, prefered him as a close friend like most of my squadmates/crew, and I connected to him being a flawed character on his path of redemption.  I have no problem debating with people while some people need to take a chill pill with the "my way or the highway' attitude.

[Blueprotoss]

RShara wrote...

That's fine, and I have no problems with you feeling that way. What we're asking for is an option to take another path. No one would be forced into a cure (which shouldn't be a miracle cure, it should come naturally from the events in the story), but they can choose to do.

That's not really too much to ask for, is it?

A cure for Thane would be forced at this point because it would have to be a miracle unless if Bioware rewrote ME2 and ME3 for Drell not be a rare species in xenobiology studies, which would mean more knowledge.  Also Thane would go under some tweaking based on what his character was.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 05 août 2012 - 12:14 .

[coldwetn0se]

Not sure if you caught this @bluecansam, but I did put up my DLC outline.  hehe...it's funny, I actually find it relaxing thinking up things like this.  They may not be that creative, but it is a fun little pass time.

Post Link.

[LanceSolous13]

I would also like to remind you that the reccomendation for Kepral's Symdrome came from THE SHADOW BROKER. Why would he have that information if it has no value?

[Bluecansam]

coldwetn0se wrote...

Not sure if you caught this @bluecansam, but I did put up my DLC outline.  hehe...it's funny, I actually find it relaxing thinking up things like this.  They may not be that creative, but it is a fun little pass time.

Post Link.

Yup! I saw it! Sorry it's taken me so long to respond - hard for me to get more than an hour a day on the computer these days. This sounds really well thought out. I especially like how you were able to incorporate all manner of possibilities in the quest. The part for saving Thane sounds great too. Not intrusive for people who don't want to save him, believable for those who do. The part where he can stay on Kahje is particularly good. Great job!

[coldwetn0se]

@Bluecansam - Thank you! That is very kind.

As much as I wish things in the original game went different (and not just for Thane....*eye-balls game beginning and Shepard*), I am a bit of a realist. Wanted to try and find a way to make things work with what was made, and what a variety of people would want. Plus....I have a thing about replayability; HUGE fan of it. Out of all the BW games I own and play, I think I have the greatest variety of play throughs with DAO simply because different play throughs can really "feel" different (even if the end result of uniting groups and defeating the darkspawn is the same in every play through....).

[Bluecansam]

Han Shot First wrote...

I wouldn't mind Thane getting more content before he dies, and from what I've seen on youtube the Thane romance wasn't well handled. I cease to agree with the Thanemancers however when they argue that there should be an option to save/cure Thane.

Why do I care?

Because I like  Mass Effect 3 and I like stories I'm interested in to have some emotional impact. If you give Shepard an easy out in every situation, you effectively remove any emotional impact that story would have otherwise had. Back after Mass Effect 1 was released there was vocal minority that argued that Shepard should have had an option to save both Kaidan and Ashley on Virmire, and I argued just as vehemently against that.

I'm sure that someone will read the above and think "I hated either Ashley or Kaidan and that scene did nothing for me." Good for you. For those of us who did like both  characters however, it was one of the more emotionally impactful moments of the series. We felt Shepard's anguish and helplessness in not being able to get them both out alive.

I also care because Thane is one of my favorite characters, and I'd hate to see either his ME2 plotline or that amazing hospital scene swept away with one broad stoke of the writer's pen. In fact the hospital scene with Thane is the only scene in the series that nearly brought me to tears.

Thankfully I have little to worry about, as I think there is little to no chance of Bioware altering Thane's hospital scene. If Thane was to get more content in DLC it is far more likely that all of that content would be set before the coup, and not provide an escape for Thane.

I know maybe you think that Thane's death had a good amount of emotional impact. This is likely because you did not romance him in a playthrough. For those of us who did, however, Thane's death rang hollow. The prayer was sweet, but anything before or after that was SO very lacking in emotion in regards to how someone would act at her lover's death bed. I didn't expect Shepard to turn into a weepy mess, but she can't even say she loved him or shed one measly tear for the poor guy?

Your analogy with Kaidan/Ashley's death in ME1 is also not a very good one, considering that the VS is STILL being mourned well into the 3rd game. Meanwhile, nobody can be bothered to mourn Thane 3 minutes after his death. In fact, when you visit Garrus in front of the memorial wall, he's still talking about how you lost the VS and doesn't mention the name you just added to the wall - Thane's. Shepard expresses no anguish, no helplessness at being unable to save Thane. You say that making things easy for Shepard would remove the emotional impact from the story. What emotional impact? Thane's death had no bearing on the story whatsoever, unless you count some taunting from Kai Leng and one line from Shepard when she kills him. (A line where Thane's name is easily replaced by someone else's, so it's not like you NEED Thane to die just to get that line.) I might've been fine with his death - despite how poorly it was written - if there was some impact on the rest of the game, but there was none.

Death was guaranteed for Thane, whereas for the others it was only probable or likely.

Also Thane's impending death was more central to his character than the probablility of death was to other character's. Other than their loyalty missions they don't have a lot of dialogue dealing with it, and certainly not to the extent of Thane. In Mass Effect Thane is defined by his terminal illness and how he is dealing with it. With the other characters the probability of death is more of a side plot than something that is central to their character.

That being said, the so-called Suicide Mission was a bit of a cop out by Bioware. Rather than sticking to that original marketing slogan of "Many choices lie ahead...none of them easy," the player was given an easy out where he or she could save everyone. As much as I love both Mass Effect 2 and the Suicide Mission, that was one of its flaws. A perfect run shold have been one where the player got through with the minimum amount of casualties rather than a run where the player gets through with no casualties. The player should have been faced with not being able to save everyone, just like Virmire.

There was more to Thane than just his disease, and there is far more dialogue from him that's not about his disease than there was that was. Most of the time, he talks about the drell, or Irikah, or Kolyat, or being an assassin, or his religion. Sure, he mentions it here and there, but the bulk of their conversations are not about his illness. Take away his disease, and he is still an assassin looking to atone and rebuild a relationship with his son. THAT is the core of his character. This is not to say that his terminal illness isn't a large factor in his storyline. It obviously is. But there is a difference between what is a part of his character, and what is part of his plot. His character stands apart from his disease or impending death. How he reacts to that disease and possible death has a large impact on his character, but - as I said before - you can create just as interesting a story from survival as you can with death. All it takes is a creative writer who knows his/her stuff.

As for the Suicide Mission, regardless of how much the mission was really a suicide mission, for the purposes of the story, each of the characters really did think that they would not be coming back. Even if that expectation of death was only addressed in the Loyalty Missions, nobody ever says that their survival made their LMs pointless. Because it doesn't. So, too, with Thane.

Also, your argument was that Thane's survival would make for bad storytelling. I gave reasons why the death as it stands is already bad storytelling, and what is necessary and possible for good storytelling whether he lives or dies. You haven't commented on it, and I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.

[Bluecansam]

coldwetn0se wrote...

@Bluecansam - Thank you! That is very kind.

As much as I wish things in the original game went different (and not just for Thane....*eye-balls game beginning and Shepard*), I am a bit of a realist. Wanted to try and find a way to make things work with what was made, and what a variety of people would want. Plus....I have a thing about replayability; HUGE fan of it. Out of all the BW games I own and play, I think I have the greatest variety of play throughs with DAO simply because different play throughs can really "feel" different (even if the end result of uniting groups and defeating the darkspawn is the same in every play through....).

Absolutely. I love replayability too. (Though, I find I make a lot of the same decisions anyway...) I love wondering "But what would happen if you did this?" and trying a scenario over and over again. DAO is officially my favorite game ever, partly because of the replay value, but also because the story and voice acting are so damn good!

[Renmiri1]

I'm really in love with DA2, which is weird because I went into it expecting to hate it. Been replaying it a lot ^^

DAO is awesome but is also very cliche. Is a good take on the Lord of the Rings type adventure and I just love Zevran and Alistair and Morigan.. But DA2 has a very interesting creative story and the characters are a lot more nuanced and deep. And I really liked the rags to riches journey

[Blueprotoss]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would also like to remind you that the reccomendation for Kepral's Symdrome came from THE SHADOW BROKER. Why would he have that information if it has no value?

The Shadow Broker collects every peice of information well its a theory, rumor, or fact based on how knowledge is power.  Its easy to say that there could be a "cure" for Kepral's Syndrome through a lung transplant while the truth is there's no known lore or consist information to back that up.

Renmiri1 wrote...

I'm really in love with DA2, which is weird because I went into it expecting to hate it. Been replaying it a lot ^^

DAO is awesome but is also very cliche. Is a good take on the Lord of the Rings type adventure and I just love Zevran and Alistair and Morigan.. But DA2 has a very interesting creative story and the characters are a lot more nuanced and deep. And I really liked the rags to riches journey

I still have to play DA2 myself while it sounds like way too high expectations caused some people to release their Krakens on it. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 06 août 2012 - 04:55 .

[Crysis44]

Wow. I'm really seeing how this - pardon me - dibsh*t is taking things. I support this, and if my LI died (depends, but probably Tali) id be so angry that i wouldn't play a Bioware game ever again. I read about the Jacob romance...that just sucks. Id be raging, but, putting my feelings aside. I may not be the smartest guy, the dumbest, or even the snarkiest, but i can put up a good discussion for a few posts. I fully support getting a cure or something of the matter for you people that romanced Thane in ME2. That being said, i never romanced him, but i was a friend all the way. It was wrong to remove such a good character with...well, wrong writing. I would have wrote it better. I hope this works out for you.

Modifié par Crysis44, 07 août 2012 - 03:00 .

[wildannie]

Crysis44 wrote...

Wow. I'm really seeing how this - pardon me - dibsh*t is taking things. I support this, and if my LI died (depends, but probably Tali) id be so angry that i wouldn't play a Bioware game ever again. I read about the Jacob romance...that just sucks. Id be raging, but, putting my feelings aside. I may not be the smartest guy, the dumbest, or even the snarkiest, but i can put up a good discussion for a few posts. I fully support getting a cure or something of the matter for you people that romanced Thane in ME2. That being said, i never romanced him, but i was a friend all the way. It was wrong to remove such a good character with...well, wrong writing. I would have wrote it better. I hope this works out for you.

As a Thanemancer I really appreciate this kind of support, I'm right in the category of not buying anything from Bioware again (or EA) which is a shame, because previously I was firmly in the buy all bioware games, DLC and whatever else I could afford camp.

Some may think that this is me cutting of my nose despite my face, but it is not.  ME3 made me feel bad because I'd invested a lot of time and emotion into playing the previous two, I'm not giving them the chance to profit from my misery again.  Second hand I will consider, but I won't touch ME franchise again (unless they fix it, which I expect they will never do) . 

[coldwetn0se]

@Crysis44 - I'm with @wildannie in thank you for your support. Just wanted my LI of choice to matter in the last installment. Silly me.......

[Roxy]

@Crysis44 I second on what wildannie said and Thank you very much! We appreciate the support! Yeah it pretty much sucks when they kill off your LI/favorite character with no option to save him whatsoever...and after all that hope you gave us Bioware!

[mnomaha]

@Crysis44...I'm in with the others. I honestly can't see buying another bioware...anything...at this point.

Thanks for the support...you rock!

[LanceSolous13]

Blueprotoss wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would also like to remind you that the reccomendation for Kepral's Symdrome came from THE SHADOW BROKER. Why would he have that information if it has no value?

The Shadow Broker collects every peice of information well its a theory, rumor, or fact based on how knowledge is power.  Its easy to say that there could be a "cure" for Kepral's Syndrome through a lung transplant while the truth is there's no known lore or consist information to back that up.

...I would argue with you on how rediculious that last comment is but...

Can you back up your statement with something from the LotSB DLC that is also a 'theory, rumor, or fact'?

[Blueprotoss]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would also like to remind you that the reccomendation for Kepral's Symdrome came from THE SHADOW BROKER. Why would he have that information if it has no value?

The Shadow Broker collects every peice of information well its a theory, rumor, or fact based on how knowledge is power.  Its easy to say that there could be a "cure" for Kepral's Syndrome through a lung transplant while the truth is there's no known lore or consist information to back that up.

...I would argue with you on how rediculious that last comment is but...

Can you back up your statement with something from the LotSB DLC that is also a 'theory, rumor, or fact'?

You said that there's proof in LotSB while all it is a report of a single transplant surgery.  Either way its not brought up in ME3, which can easily dismis that report based on there's no confirmation of the transplant being successful.  If you're really going to talk about facts that provide a "cure" then you'll need to have concrete evidence other then assumption and speculation.

[RShara]

@Crysis44, thank you for the support. It gets wearying sometimes, trying to educate those that won't listen, so it's so nice to hear it when someone understands!

[Blueprotoss]

RShara wrote...

@Crysis44, thank you for the support. It gets wearying sometimes, trying to educate those that won't listen, so it's so nice to hear it when someone understands!

If you say this for one side then you have to say this about both sides while I see more avoidance against Thane's death/cure then supporting.

[LanceSolous13]

Blueprotoss wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would also like to remind you that the reccomendation for Kepral's Symdrome came from THE SHADOW BROKER. Why would he have that information if it has no value?

The Shadow Broker collects every peice of information well its a theory, rumor, or fact based on how knowledge is power.  Its easy to say that there could be a "cure" for Kepral's Syndrome through a lung transplant while the truth is there's no known lore or consist information to back that up.

...I would argue with you on how rediculious that last comment is but...

Can you back up your statement with something from the LotSB DLC that is also a 'theory, rumor, or fact'?

You said that there's proof in LotSB while all it is a report of a single transplant surgery.  Either way its not brought up in ME3, which can easily dismis that report based on there's no confirmation of the transplant being successful.  If you're really going to talk about facts that provide a "cure" then you'll need to have concrete evidence other then assumption and speculation.

Erm....What? Its not even a report about a transplant surgery. Its reccomending one to Thane as a means of survival. The fact that its not brought up in ME3 IS WHY WE'RE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I don't see at all how that's 'assumption and speculation'.

Anyways, that didn't answer my question. Please point out something else in the Shadow Broker's files that is also false, incorrect, or otherwise wrong.

And, thank you, We totally didn't get that you were against Thane getting a cure. /sarcasm

[Blueprotoss]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Erm....What? Its not even a report about a transplant surgery. Its reccomending one to Thane as a means of survival. The fact that its not brought up in ME3 IS WHY WE'RE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I don't see at all how that's 'assumption and speculation'.

Either way you're still assuming that a lung transplant would help Thane and speculating that you know what the authors know.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

Anyways, that didn't answer my question. Please point out something else in the Shadow Broker's files that is also false, incorrect, or otherwise wrong.

If you were a part of any of the ME writing teams then you might have some ground to stand on based on how there's little known information on the Drell to begin with.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

And, thank you, We totally didn't get that you were against Thane getting a cure. /sarcasm

Insultng people still hasn't helped you yet, which means its useless to do so.