1198 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Blueprotoss wrote...
 I see you're still resorting to insults when people don't agree with you and you still don't know what "trolling".

Trust me, you'll know when I'm insulting you. This is not one of those times.
 

Apparently you haven't paid that much attention to Thane as a story element based on how you only focus on the "assassin" part of him.

I know you're a troll, but at least put some effort into it.

[Renmiri1]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

Not if you romanced him, he doesn't.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

If you can prove to me how dying by flinging yourself at a sword is honorable, or how being prompty forgotten by your friends and loved ones meant something for the galaxy, color me corrected.

Kicking Kei-Lang's ass and helping to save the Consule is still a good and suitable death for his character based on his beliefs alone.

For someone who doesn't pay attention you sure try to look knowledgeable. Do tell what are his beliefs. You have no idea. You didn't notice the retcon from ME3 to ME2. You didn't notice him saying he feels no shame of being an assassin then begging you to help keep his son from his "path of sin". Sure sounds like someone that feels guilt to me. The same thing happens with his "ready to die" initial talk. But you wouldn't know that because you were not paying attention.

You are misinformed and have just a shallow knowledge of his plotline. Try to learn and listen. You will get taken more seriously.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 15 juillet 2012 - 01:50 .

[o Ventus]

Pitznik wrote...

Why you say his life expectancy was retconned? Either his condition simply got worse, or his ME2 doctors were wrong. Life expectancy is just an educated guess, people don't have a timer inside showing 15 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hourse and 17 minutes do death.

I agree with many of your points, except for the possibility of the cure - it shouldn't be possible, for dramatic reasons, just like Javik shouldn't happen, just like refusal should always end with deafeat.

Drama for the sake of drama is not a good thing.

[mythlover20]

Pitznik wrote...

Why you say his life expectancy was retconned? Either his condition simply got worse, or his ME2 doctors were wrong. Life expectancy is just an educated guess, people don't have a timer inside showing 15 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hourse and 17 minutes do death.

I agree with many of your points, except for the possibility of the cure - it shouldn't be possible, for dramatic reasons, just like Javik shouldn't happen, just like refusal should always end with deafeat.

That is indeed true, life expectancies are indeed an educated guess. My father, for example, was given 2 years to live when he was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer, aespestosis, and emphasemea (all lung diseases), and my mother, well, she hasn't been given one yet but her condition is rapidly failing.

Unfortunately for a lot of people, and Thane's writer aespecially, My parents, and also my grandparents, several aunts, my friends next door, and every single person I've met in the Cancer wards of the Townsville General Hospital (and that's a lot) are my personal experience in this matter, and every single one of them, all at varying stages of their various diseases, most of which were to deal with the lungs, debunk Thane's disease as written in ME3.

Because simply put, a bacterial lung infection causing metastatic lung cancer does not become an alien version of Sickle Cell Aenemia. The blood can be USED to transport cancerous cells to the other organs, as it did in my father, my grandfather, and my grandmother, but it does not destroy the cells' protein markers that carry oxygen. The lungs cells were what were destroyed, not his blood.

There are a couple of essays written by a medical student and a medical researcher that detail exactly WHY Thane's death was medically inaccurate that BioWare have actually requested to read, and are reading now. If they can acknowledge the problems with it, why can't you guys?

[RadicalDisconnect]

mythlover20 wrote...

I get the feeling here that none of you have ever had to sit back and watch a loved one die. No one, it is, except the Thane frienders and Thane mancers themselves.

In the end, I feel that if, and I stress IF, Thane had to die it should have been handled properly, and with respect. It wasn't. THAT is what trivialised him.

Thane does not look or act like someone with a terminal disease. A couple of coughs here and there do not a dead-man-walking make. From the symptoms he presents in ME3 he has a dose of the flu. Nothing more.

Not to mention that his disease was retconned, his life expectancy was retconned, and his romance was thrown out the window. All because Chris Hepler was too up himself to DO HIS BLOODY RESEARCH and get it right. Instead spending all his time turning EDI into a sexbot.

Seriously, compare EDI's content to Thane's. You can easily see which one had preferential treatment.

Thane-haters who can't be bothered getting their facts straight trying to drown out those who actually pay attention in class. Yeah, good luck with that, you guys. We will beat you down no matter how many times you get up. Logical arguments based on the evidence provided OVER THE TWO GAMES will always win.

I sympathize with those who are frustrated by Thane's rather nonsensical death and demeanor, but was that really called for? Ironic that you're using the "EDI is a sexbot" tagline but shooting down the "Thane's death is certain" tagline. Your arguments becomes much less compelling when you resort to using them.

[Renmiri1]

Pitznik wrote...

[ snip debunked part ]

I agree with many of your points, except for the possibility of the cure - it shouldn't be possible, for dramatic reasons, just like Javik shouldn't happen, just like refusal should always end with deafeat.

"For dramatic reasons" ? Is that another way of saying "Artistic Integrity" ?

I just love when people try to defend mediocre writing with those big important sounding words. Pray tell, what "dramatic reasons" are you referring to ? Do you mean you need a "redshirt" to die so your Sheppard feels awesome when he defeats Kai Lame ?

[Blueprotoss]

o Ventus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
 I see you're still resorting to insults when people don't agree with you and you still don't know what "trolling".

Trust me, you'll know when I'm insulting you. This is not one of those times.
 

Apparently you haven't paid that much attention to Thane as a story element based on how you only focus on the "assassin" part of him.

I know you're a troll, but at least put some effort into it.

I love how you still don't know what you're talking about.

o Ventus wrote...

Drama for the sake of drama is not a good thing.

Yet you're causing the drama. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[Renmiri1]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

I sympathize with those who are frustrated by Thane's rather nonsensical death and demeanor, but was that really called for? Ironic that you're using the "EDI is a sexbot" tagline but shooting down the "Thane's death is certain" tagline. Your arguments becomes much less compelling when you resort to using them.

Did you really like EDI on ME3 ? I'm sorry to have offended you then. To me she was turned from an awesome personality into "boobs and butt" and given a very shallow plotline, that we have seen 1,000 times already.

Chris Helper is not a good writer IMHO, he clearly did not take the time to research what and who his 2 characters were in ME2. And he loves trolling fans... He just got a lot of people mad on his SDDC pannel

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Even though I never got the reunion ending I was hoping for in the EC, I was able to settle for Ashley not putting my name up on the wall, and then my gasp of breath at the end. Ambigious sure, but at least it got it's point across. They believed I was alive, and then it shows me take a breath. Not to mention guys like Tully and Mike saying that Shep's alive, and the file itself being named ShepardAlive. So ok then, it's confirmed i'm alive and a reunion is inevitable at this point. Fine i'll roll with that, i'll take that as closure.

But then Hepler had to go and say  "It could just be a last gasp before death, yeah." at the SDCC panel. 

Really?

Is he trolling or something? There's no good eason for him to have said that.

 

[DevilBeast]

o Ventus wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used 'realism' as a catch-all word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 

I'm sorry I pissed in your cheerios. Now please, shut up. Really, calm the f**k down.

Yes, please calm down. Fighting fire with fire isn´t that effective..

[Pitznik]

o Ventus wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Why you say his life expectancy was retconned? Either his condition simply got worse, or his ME2 doctors were wrong. Life expectancy is just an educated guess, people don't have a timer inside showing 15 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hourse and 17 minutes do death.

I agree with many of your points, except for the possibility of the cure - it shouldn't be possible, for dramatic reasons, just like Javik shouldn't happen, just like refusal should always end with deafeat.

Drama for the sake of drama is not a good thing.

How about coherent story then, is that a good thing?

Thane's story was about dying man making peace with himself and his son before death, or in case of romance, about finding new reason to live despite the terminal illness. If it would be a story about desperately fighting his illness, it could end with curing or with death, both would be fitting. But it was not.

@mythlover20 - but that means only that the illness was badly shown ingame, doesn't change the purpose of the character and his story. If you're right (and I assume you are), it should only change what he tells us about his condition, and not his fate.

[The Spamming Troll]

the biggest problem i see is, people shouldnt have convinced themselves their shepard and thane would have a future.

[Renmiri1]

@Blueprotos TROLOLOLLL to you too.

You are welcome to keep bumping our thread into the first page, but I'm done responding to ya.

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

For someone who doesn't pay attention you sure try to look knowledgeable. Do tell what are his beliefs. You have no idea. You didn't notice the retcon from ME3 to ME2. You didn't notice him saying he feels no shame of being an assassin then begging you to help keep his son from his "path of sin". Sure sounds like someone that feels guilt to me. The same thing happens with his "ready to die" initial talk. But you wouldn't know that because you were not paying attention.

 Pot calling the kettle black based on Thane's death was all about his character like protecting an innocent and the prayer.

Renmiri1 wrote... 

You are misinformed and have just a shallow knowledge of his plotline. Try to learn and listen. You will get taken more seriously.

It seems like you're only focusing on the "assassin" part of him instead of him as a character.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Renmiri1 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

I sympathize with those who are frustrated by Thane's rather nonsensical death and demeanor, but was that really called for? Ironic that you're using the "EDI is a sexbot" tagline but shooting down the "Thane's death is certain" tagline. Your arguments becomes much less compelling when you resort to using them.

Did you really like EDI on ME3 ? I'm sorry to have offended you then. To me she was turned from an awesome personality into "boobs and butt" and given a very shallow plotline, that we have seen 1,000 times already.

Chris Helper is not a good writer IMHO, he clearly did not take the time to research what and who his 2 characters were in ME2. And he loves trolling fans... He just got a lot of people mad on his SDDC pannel

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Even though I never got the reunion ending I was hoping for in the EC, I was able to settle for Ashley not putting my name up on the wall, and then my gasp of breath at the end. Ambigious sure, but at least it got it's point across. They believed I was alive, and then it shows me take a breath. Not to mention guys like Tully and Mike saying that Shep's alive, and the file itself being named ShepardAlive. So ok then, it's confirmed i'm alive and a reunion is inevitable at this point. Fine i'll roll with that, i'll take that as closure.

But then Hepler had to go and say  "It could just be a last gasp before death, yeah." at the SDCC panel. 

Really?

Is he trolling or something? There's no good eason for him to have said that.

 

I like most squadmates, and even for ones I'm not fond of, I don't make such condescending comments to "balance" another character who may have gotten shafted. It just gets tiring that people make these sweeping generalizations. It's a very poor argumentative technique, and it's the same kind of generalization as "Miranda is nothing more than a fan-service" and "Thane is terminally dead, so we can't do anything for him."

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:12 .

[Renmiri1]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the biggest problem i see is, people shouldnt have convinced themselves their shepard and thane would have a future.

Bioware certainly promoted it


http://t.co/HUaQWvwR

[mythlover20]

Also, before I head off, OP, thank you for putting this up. I will admit I didn't read it, because I am still working on the Thane Fanbook Introductory Essay "Whispers on the Tide," and I do not want to accidentally plagiarise someone else's work.

It is comforting, however, to know that there are those out there who do take this seriously, are able to see the injustice that was done to the vibrant character that was Thane Krios...

[Pitznik]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

[ snip debunked part ]

Debunked? What have you debunked, the fact that life expectancy of terminally ill person can and sometimes does dramatically changes? I don't think so.

[Emeraldfern]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Agreed and its hard to take the OP serioudly based on how Thane has wanted to die since you met him in ME2.

Not if you romanced him, he doesn't.

I guess he doesn't want Thane to have a honorable death that meant something for the Galaxy.

If you can prove to me how dying by flinging yourself at a sword is honorable, or how being prompty forgotten by your friends and loved ones meant something for the galaxy, color me corrected.

Kicking Kei-Lang's ass and helping to save the Consule is still a good and suitable death for his character based on his beliefs alone.

Based on his beliefs? Do you mean his religion?


What about his fear of death? 

Or his resolve that he was worth more than his self-imposed isolation?

His concern for Kolyat?


Aren't the above a part of his character too, just as much as his religious beliefs?

Not to mention that none of the abovementioned contradicts his beliefs at all.

Are trying to tell me that Thane would value the lives of the council over his own son because of his beliefs?

That he would throw away his life and leave Kolyat behind?


Sorry I'm not buying that.

[Blueprotoss]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

the biggest problem i see is, people shouldnt have convinced themselves their shepard and thane would have a future.

A fatal illness will always cause problems like that especially when its at the uncurable stage.

[Blueprotoss]

Emeraldfern wrote...

Based on his beliefs? Do you mean his religion?


What about his fear of death? 

Or his resolve that he was worth more than his self-imposed isolation?

His concern for Kolyat?


Aren't the above a part of his character too, just as much as his religious beliefs?

Not to mention that none of the abovementioned contradicts his beliefs at all?

Are trying to tell me that Thane would value the lives of the council over his own son because of his beliefs?

That he would throw away his life and leave Kolyat behind? 


Sorry I'm not buying that.

It seems like you're also paying too much to the "assasssin part" of him instead of his character.  I guess you're not a fan of someone saving lives based on his past bad deeds thats dieing from a fatal illness, which won't have a happy ending whether a friend or partner.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:19 .

[mythlover20]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

mythlover20 wrote...

I get the feeling here that none of you have ever had to sit back and watch a loved one die. No one, it is, except the Thane frienders and Thane mancers themselves.

In the end, I feel that if, and I stress IF, Thane had to die it should have been handled properly, and with respect. It wasn't. THAT is what trivialised him.

Thane does not look or act like someone with a terminal disease. A couple of coughs here and there do not a dead-man-walking make. From the symptoms he presents in ME3 he has a dose of the flu. Nothing more.

Not to mention that his disease was retconned, his life expectancy was retconned, and his romance was thrown out the window. All because Chris Hepler was too up himself to DO HIS BLOODY RESEARCH and get it right. Instead spending all his time turning EDI into a sexbot.

Seriously, compare EDI's content to Thane's. You can easily see which one had preferential treatment.

Thane-haters who can't be bothered getting their facts straight trying to drown out those who actually pay attention in class. Yeah, good luck with that, you guys. We will beat you down no matter how many times you get up. Logical arguments based on the evidence provided OVER THE TWO GAMES will always win.

I sympathize with those who are frustrated by Thane's rather nonsensical death and demeanor, but was that really called for? Ironic that you're using the "EDI is a sexbot" tagline but shooting down the "Thane's death is certain" tagline. Your arguments becomes much less compelling when you resort to using them.

Um... yes. You are correct. I do apologise, the EDI comment was uncalled for.

Truth be told, I don't have a problem with EDI herself, but I do have a problem with how she got her body. I mean, she spends the rest of the game asking Shepard for advice on, well, everything really, but she takes unilateral action getting the body? Hmm, yeah, no. That does not fit the rest of her character. I did find her useful, her and Garrus were the absolute perfect squad going up against Cerberus with my Sentinels. However I do feel, based on her physical in-game model, the lack of player choice re getting the body, and the somewhat... I don't quite know how to put it... "creepy, tacked-on" nature of the Joker/EDI/NORMANDY romance, tends to lean EDI towards the sexbot category, imo. Don't get me wrong, I still like her, mostly, but..... yeah, she was better in ME2, imo, when we was actually developing sentient characteristics of her own, instead of in relation to ... well, everything else.

It related to the sexist treatment of all the female characters in ME3. I'll write another essay regarding it after I finish the Thane Character Analysis one for the Fanbook.

[Renmiri1]

Pitznik wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

[ snip debunked part ]

Debunked? What have you debunked, the fact that life expectancy of terminally ill person can and sometimes does dramatically changes? I don't think so.

Indeed. And sometimes they get cured by prayer  Or  sometimes an entire species gets cured by writer's fiat. 

Thane died of "uncurabilitis" also known as "Red Shirt must die", to make people shed manly tears over a lost comrade.

But Chris Helper couldn't even write this clichee death right. The red shirt death needs to be mourned if it is going to have any impact at all. His wasn't. Garrus looks at his name on the Normandy memorial, right after his death and talks about how "we almost lost Kaidan/ Ashley".

Guy is a very lazy writer that can't even do a tired trope properly.

[Emeraldfern]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Emeraldfern wrote...

Based on his beliefs? Do you mean his religion?


What about his fear of death? 

Or his resolve that he was worth more than his self-imposed isolation?

His concern for Kolyat?


Aren't the above a part of his character too, just as much as his religious beliefs?

Not to mention that none of the abovementioned contradicts his beliefs at all?

Are trying to tell me that Thane would value the lives of the council over his own son because of his beliefs?

That he would throw away his life and leave Kolyat behind? 


Sorry I'm not buying that.

It seems like you're also paying too much to the "assasssin part" of him instead of his character.  I guess you're not a fan of someone saving lives based on his past bad deeds thats dieing from a fatal illness.

No.

I focused on the fact that Thane is a father. And the fact that Kolyat still needs him. That while he could not protect and be there for Irikah, he could protect and be with his son.

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...
Indeed. And sometimes they get cured by prayer  Or  sometimes an entire species gets cured by writer's fiat. 

Thane died of "uncurabilitis" also known as "Red Shirt must die", to make people shed manly tears over a lost comrade.

But Chris Helper couldn't even write this clichee death right. The red shirt death needs to be mourned if it is going to have any impact at all. His wasn't. Garrus looks at his name on the Normandy memorial, right after his death and talks about how "we almost lost Kaidan/ Ashley".

Guy is a very lazy writer that can't even do a tired trope properly.

Really if Thane was a red shirt then he would have randomly died  before the Suicide Miission in ME2.  Thane died in a realistic way like how a normal human would die by a decapitation or a Quarian would die from a suit breach without antibiotics/antivirals.

[Renmiri1]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
Indeed. And sometimes they get cured by prayer  Or  sometimes an entire species gets cured by writer's fiat. 

Thane died of "uncurabilitis" also known as "Red Shirt must die", to make people shed manly tears over a lost comrade.

But Chris Helper couldn't even write this clichee death right. The red shirt death needs to be mourned if it is going to have any impact at all. His wasn't. Garrus looks at his name on the Normandy memorial, right after his death and talks about how "we almost lost Kaidan/ Ashley".

Guy is a very lazy writer that can't even do a tired trope properly.

Really if Thane was a red shirt then he would have randomly died  before the Suicide Miission in ME2.  Thane died in a realistic way like how a normal human would die by a decapitation or a Quarian would die from a suit breach without antibiotics/antivirals.

You noticed Thane was NOT a red shirt in ME2. Good for you!

Now go play his 3-4 lines of dialog on ME3 and tell me the rich layered and conflicted character from ME2 is there on ME3 at all. He is not. His new writer is lazy and a mediocre writer.