1198 réponses à ce sujet

[mythlover20]

I also had a similiar feeling, but still agree with Lance. I understand why and how some people could think that. But I don't agree. A lot of the changes we would make to Thane for the romance path would work for the non-romance path, with some mild dialogue changes. Thane is just as lacking in character as a friend as an LI, since the dialogue for both is exactly the same.

[Blueprotoss]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

You did avoid something. You quoted spesifically my question of...

Yet I answered the question while you're still making the assumptions of avoidance.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

and then proceded state things unrelated to the question I asked and you quoted.

If thats the case then you can't back up if Thane would have survived a transplant and don't know that much of Drell biology to say that Thane is perfect especially when that wasn't discussed neiter in ME2 nor in ME3.

LanceSolous13 wrote...  

Also, the phrase is "I couldn't care less". Saying that "You could care less" means that you do in fact care.

I'm just here looking for a debate while you're here to provide ego.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

But Thane DOES contradict himself several times in Mass Effect 3, as I extensivly stated on Page 20. I don't even see what your arguement about Joker and EDI is from ME2. They weren't written by Hepler in ME2.

Yet Thane is still willing to die and he still thinks about his path of redemption.  EDI and Joker were in a small romance in ME2 before her synthetic body appeared in ME3, which I wasn't surprised about.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

That is true to an extent.

Take the endings for an example,

Sure, there are people who will hate the ending no matter what, however, There IS infact a way to write an ending that DOESN'T ****** of the majority of the fanbase.

So, even though many people are upset about how screwed the ME2 Romances are, There is infact a way to write Thane AND Jacob without axing their romances entirely.

But, they did axe their romances and ****** of the fans, and thus, here we are.

I know that you agree but like I said you can't please everyone. 

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Except, There wasn't a whole ton cut from Mass Effect 1. The biggest thing the removed was Callistan but I don't think that got past the conceptual stage as its not even mentioned in the plot.

What was cut from Mass Effect 2 was Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Massani (Who weren't going to be Talk to Click Squaddies), Project Firewalker, and Lair of the Shadow Broker. All were later added as DLC, leaving just spare dialogue lines on the cutting room floor.

There was enough altered and cut content in ME1's art book to show that a good amount of content was cut while we can say that about anything including ME2 and ME3.

LanceSolous13 wrote... 

So...Before Mass Effect 3, The biggest thing they took out never made it past conceptual stage.

You shouldn't make those assumptions especially with the amount of scripts that were written and concepts designed for the ME series as a whole. 

LanceSolous13 wrote...

They already lost half their fanbase. They're worried about losing the rest.

Thats also a huge and unreasonable assumption that you made there. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 août 2012 - 04:32 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

IMO trying to use the writers to back up arguements is a poor excuse

You can have hat opinion while you still can't override the writers or the general creators, which is a fact unless if you do a Halo: Reach.   Its like telling James cameron that the Navi are actually smurfs or telling Bain's creator that Bain was created from Bane Capital.

AresKeith wrote...

Bioware would never say that, because there on the verge of losing half of their original fanbase

Thats a huge and unreasonable assumption that you made there. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 août 2012 - 04:30 .

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

We could expand it and say Thane should have never been created or should have died in ME2 as soon as you meet him.

Like the glorified redshirt he was on ME3, there just to extract some nice emo angst for your Sheppard, give him a reason to be brooding and cool.

I stopped liking this clichee plot when I was about 10, but hey, you like it, you are in luck, BW gives players choices. Your Thane can die even before the Suicide Mission actually begins, just decline to  take the shields upgrade. 

Jenkins in ME1 is a perfect example of a "red shirt" while Thane is far from being a "red shirt".

[Blueprotoss]

Nube9 wrote...

Hmm I'm wondering if he was in charge of writing Wrex, dunno why it feels like something he would troll Shep with. Loved Wrex btw, though as a fan this stings quite a bit.

I can't remember the writer's name, but the guy who wrote Legion and Javik in ME3 wrote Garrus and Wrex in either ME1 or ME2.  I might be wrong with Legion while I know he wrote for Javik, Garrus, and Wrex at least in one game.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 août 2012 - 04:37 .

[Blueprotoss]

Squeegee83 wrote...

A) I don't know if I really hold any influence or not. I mean this honestly. Unless someone comes out and says, "Hey Squee, you are the reason why I think, "so and so" is a troll.

I don't exactly have a "God Complex" issue and believe people will do what I am doing simply because I am doing it.

Everyone has influence whether its good/bad or small/big.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Yes, I know I am running a campaign, however, I don't believe people are following it because of me, I believe they are following it because they believe in the cause. The cause though, took me months to figure out before submitting into an idea, an idea that anyone can follow... male/female, gay/straight, romanced/non-romanced, personal experience/or not. If I only singled us down into one category, it would have soured some people's mouths.

Anyone can fight for a cause while it only takes a few to derail and corrupt that cause at any time.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Thank you, it means a lot.

No problem.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

C) Absolutely, which can be respected.

I wish more people did so.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

D) Granted, I have spoken to many romanced and non-romanced fans of Thane. As strange as this is going to sound now, I do understand both viewpoints of the issue. I have spent many months discussing/debating these viewpoints. There are even some key points I have agreed with when it comes to Thane dying. Although, there hasn't been anyone yet to fully convinced me why an "optional save" for Thane would somehow effect a player's experience.

Its always I good to hear every side and I also don't see how an "optional save" would be a good experience.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Although my light has not shined brightly in this thread, I have brought up in the past about how both sides may be attacking each other just a bit harshly. I really don't think there is a right and wrong side to this. For a non-romance Thane, his storyline made sense and was done very well. However, for a romanced Thane, his storyline falls flat and came off a bit cruel.

This is mostly true while I've seen more harshness from the pro Thane living side and some of the wrong is trying to force Bioware into a character or story contradiction.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Even if we dropped the issue of saving Thane, his romance still carries way too many problems to be ignored.

You could say this about most of the ME2 romances with a few ME1 and ME3 romances while romances in general won't be perfect based solely on opinion.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

I hope we can continue on with this healthily attitude that I believe we have now in debating one another and I look forward to your opinions.

Same here!

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 août 2012 - 04:53 .

[Renmiri1]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

We could expand it and say Thane should have never been created or should have died in ME2 as soon as you meet him.

Like the glorified redshirt he was on ME3, there just to extract some nice emo angst for your Sheppard, give him a reason to be brooding and cool.

I stopped liking this clichee plot when I was about 10, but hey, you like it, you are in luck, BW gives players choices. Your Thane can die even before the Suicide Mission actually begins, just decline to  take the shields upgrade. 

Jenkins in ME1 is a perfect example of a "red shirt" while Thane is far from being a "red shirt".

On Mass Effect 3 Thane has the same ammount of lines and story dimension as Jenkins. He is just a redshirt on ME3 and that is the bulk of our problem with the ME3 portraying of Thane.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 09 août 2012 - 05:47 .

[LanceSolous13]

[quote]Blueprotoss wrote...

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

You did avoid something. You quoted spesifically my question of...[/quote]Yet I answered the question while you're still making the assumptions of avoidance.[/quote]

No. You never answered my question.

You replied with...

[quote]
If you were a part of any of the ME writing teams then you might have some ground to stand on based on how there's little known information on the Drell to begin with.[/quote]

I asked for you to point out something else from the Shadow Broker's files that is proven to be false or incorrect or a rumor. You didn't do so. If you did, please Quote it. Its a very simple request.

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

and then proceded state things unrelated to the question I asked and you quoted.[/quote]If thats the case then you can't back up if Thane would have survived a transplant and don't know that much of Drell biology to say that Thane is perfect especially when that wasn't discussed neiter in ME2 nor in ME3.[/quote]

But Dr. Chakwas DOES say Thane is perfect for a Lung Transplant. I don't have to say it, Its already been stated by a valid in game source.

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...  

Also, the phrase is "I couldn't care less". Saying that "You could care less" means that you do in fact care.[/quote]I'm just here looking for a debate while you're here to provide ego.[/quote]

Its a comon mistake that bugs the crap out of me...

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

But Thane DOES contradict himself several times in Mass Effect 3, as I extensivly stated on Page 20. I don't even see what your arguement about Joker and EDI is from ME2. They weren't written by Hepler in ME2.[/quote]Yet Thane is still willing to die and he still thinks about his path of redemption.  EDI and Joker were in a small romance in ME2 before her synthetic body appeared in ME3, which I wasn't surprised about.[/quote]

Yes, they had unresolved sexual tension or whatever. No, It was not a 'romance' in ME2. Even then, We brought up the 'sexbot' and the blatent fanservice, not the romance thing with Joker. Persionally, I was fine with that.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

That is true to an extent.

Take the endings for an example,

Sure, there are people who will hate the ending no matter what, however, There IS infact a way to write an ending that DOESN'T ****** of the majority of the fanbase.

So, even though many people are upset about how screwed the ME2 Romances are, There is infact a way to write Thane AND Jacob without axing their romances entirely.

But, they did axe their romances and ****** of the fans, and thus, here we are.[/quote]I know that you agree but like I said you can't please everyone. [/quote]

And, as I said, You can please most-everyone without pissing on your fans.

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...
Except, There wasn't a whole ton cut from Mass Effect 1. The biggest thing the removed was Callistan but I don't think that got past the conceptual stage as its not even mentioned in the plot.

What was cut from Mass Effect 2 was Kasumi Goto and Zaeed Massani (Who weren't going to be Talk to Click Squaddies), Project Firewalker, and Lair of the Shadow Broker. All were later added as DLC, leaving just spare dialogue lines on the cutting room floor.[/quote]There was enough altered and cut content in ME1's art book to show that a good amount of content was cut while we can say that about anything including ME2 and ME3.[/quote]

There's a difference between Conceptual Evolution and Cut Content.

Like, Eden Prime had a VERY different level design and had floating crop fields. That idea evolved to what we have in game now.

Callistan was a giant mining facility themed around magma and had office buildings and ete. We don't know anything about the plot of the area. The entire level was axed from the game period. It didn't evolve into something else; it was axed. They state this on the Mass Effect 1 Bonus Disk.

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote... 
So...Before Mass Effect 3, The biggest thing they took out never made it past conceptual stage.[/quote]You shouldn't make those assumptions especially with the amount of scripts that were written and concepts designed for the ME series as a whole. [/quote]

Ok, Let me rephrase. Biggest thing they took out THAT WE KNOW OF never made it past the conceptual stage. Scripts are also a form of Conceptual Evolution.

[quote]
[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...
They already lost half their fanbase. They're worried about losing the rest.[/quote]Thats also a huge and unreasonable assumption that you made there. 
[/quote]

Its not unreasonable. Bioware pissed on their fans with the endings. Naturally parts of their fanbase died. People left when they heard the arrogant "Artistic Integrety" thing. People left when the Extended Cut was nothing more than turd polishing. After the EC, Look at how many people went from extreme hatred of the endings to resigned out of simply the fact that Bioware wouldn't admit their faults/fix their endings.

[LanceSolous13]

Squeegee83 wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would disagree on the non-romanced storyline making sense and being done well. I was strongly disagree there.

Please feel free to enlighten me. I didn't play out the non-romance storyline in ME3, but instead watched it on youtube. At the time, I found myself comfortable with it and after talking to people who only played out this part, I did come to the conclusion that this was a satisfying end to that part of the storyline. However, I don't mind being proven wrong. The more I learn, the better.

I've played as a Bro!Shepard. So, Romance isn't an option. I remember playing LotSB for the first time and seeing the Lung Transplant message and then Thane discussing the Hanar cure and I was getting really excited to see my Bro get cured. The cures aren't romance spesific.

I also got very strong feelings that Thane was no longer resigned for death as he once was. You don't find him reviewing memories like all those times before; you find him sending a message to Kolyat.

Then, we get to ME3 and the cures are never mentioned, all he talks about is how acceptant he is of his death, and I watch his character development fly out the window.

After that, I had to watch my bro get killed in a painfully coriagraphed scene and I can't do anything about it. Shepard just stands there and watches one of his best friends get slaughtered.

WTF?!

So, yeah, I hated the Thane Derailment even from a non-romance perspective.

[DirtySHISN0]

I skimmed the essay. I can't agree with most of it. The general idea behind the post yes, but the explanations? No.

However, if there is one positive thing Kriomosexuals can take from this - Thane is the most unique LI.

[Vlk3]

Even if some of you disagree I would like to ask you what do you think about saving Thane in that way (copied my post from the other thread about characters we would like to see return; I think it's a good compromise):

First, mission for a treatment for KS prolonging his life (visiting Kahje). After that, later in the game ( before destroying Cerberus), as he needs to recover after the treatment, Thane joins your squad as a permanent squadmate to help you fighting the Reapers (of course, you can send him away if you want). If you send him away, he will die somewhere, somehow saving a lot of lives and it will be shown in a nice cutscene (this is for people who think he should die). And, additionally, it's up to player (speculations! {smilie}), whether after the endings Thane would live long enough to get the cure as his treatment gave him just more time.

And with that, ALL problems are solved and everyone should be satisfied, also those, who think he should die a hero's death instead of living a hero's life.

Sending Thane away should be done without Shepard acting like a jerk. For example:
'Thane, I think that in your current state you are not fitted for battle yet, you should stay with your son instead.'
So he stays on the Citadel with his son, and when Reapers take over the Citadel, he dies protecting people there.
.
Unloyal Thane would not offer to join you. If you don't go on Kahje mission on time, the Cerberus coup won't change. If you go to Kahje in time, scene with Kirrahe occurs. If he's dead, so dies the councilor. (Thane is recovering in the hospital). If you choose to go on a mission later (after Thane's death ), Feron helps you on Kahje instead of Thane; result is just getting more drell war assets (and an occasion to know more about hanar&drell). Also, reaperised drell and hanar could be introduced in the game as a new type of enemy.

Modifié par Vlk3, 09 août 2012 - 10:52 .

[RShara]

I also think it's awfully funny how someone so interested in creating good in the galaxy (or at least taking bad things out of it) would be so willing to sit back and let the galaxy burn without him.

[Vlk3]

RShara wrote...

I also think it's awfully funny how someone so interested in creating good in the galaxy (or at least taking bad things out of it) would be so willing to sit back and let the galaxy burn without him.

Yeah, I was thinking about this today, ME2 Thane would never say he's at peace when everything around is falling apart. He has difficulties in breathing but he is not blind and deaf...

[Roxy]

I really like that idea! ^^
And like you said everyone is satisfied!

I agree ME 2 Thane would want to be fighting with Shepard not sit back and let death takeover him!

[AresKeith]

what if they get Padok Wiks if you don't have Thane or Kirrahe?

[mythlover20]

Nope, Ares. It's either Thane or Kirrahe or the Councillor dies and Udina tries to frame shepard. that's it.

Also, while we're being honest, let's face it. Based on the symptoms he presented in ME3, all Thane really needed was this:

http://a1.sphotos.ak...288549874_n.jpg

Modifié par mythlover20, 11 août 2012 - 04:07 .

[wildannie]

tou(fu**in')che Myth, tou(fu**in')che

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Jenkins in ME1 is a perfect example of a "red shirt" while Thane is far from being a "red shirt".

On Mass Effect 3 Thane has the same ammount of lines and story dimension as Jenkins. He is just a redshirt on ME3 and that is the bulk of our problem with the ME3 portraying of Thane.

Still if thats true then Thane would have died in ME3 without a ME2 introduction in the 1st 5-10 minutes of the ME3 just like Jenkins did in ME1.

[Bluecansam]

I think a lot of people just take things at face value without giving it that much thought. Or maybe they haven't been paying attention to the finer points of his character. Because I really don't get how someone who claims Thane was their friend would be satisfied with how his story played out. If Thane wasn't one of your favorite characters, you're not too fussed about him only having one conversation or talking only about his disease. You might overlook the KL fight as bad luck or or an awesome fight because Thane as a character doesn't matter to you all that much. You'd likely forget his character development in ME2 that more than implied that Thane was starting to attain a renewed interest in life and will to survive.

I played as both romancing Thane and befriending Thane, with the same character, even. (My original intent before Thane was to remain loyal to Kaidan. After I met Thane, I made a separate save and split her story in two.) He certainly doesn't say it outright as a friend, but there's enough nuance in his later conversations to suggest that his outlook has changed.

I can only conclude that most people either weren't paying that much attention when talking to him in ME2, forgot a lot of details over the couple years between ME2 and ME3, or have glorified death in their own minds so that the illusion of an honorable death is preferrable to the possibility of survival. And it's sad because it means that they're okay with lazy, but flashy writing. They're not going to hold BioWare accountable for quality because they can't handle subtlety or they got distracted by cliches and pretty choreography. It's baffling to me as a writer how BioWare could have thought that Thane's story might've been okay in any shape or form if you cared for the character at all.

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Jenkins in ME1 is a perfect example of a "red shirt" while Thane is far from being a "red shirt".

On Mass Effect 3 Thane has the same ammount of lines and story dimension as Jenkins. He is just a redshirt on ME3 and that is the bulk of our problem with the ME3 portraying of Thane.

Still if thats true then Thane would have died in ME3 without a ME2 introduction in the 1st 5-10 minutes of the ME3 just like Jenkins did in ME1.

I don't know how much Star Trek you've watched, but you don't have to die at the beginning to be a Red Shirt. You can have a Red Shirt at any point in the episode/game/whatever. It only has to be at any moment the writer wants to express the seriousness or danger of a situation by the loss of a character, but doesn't want to lose anyone the writer feels is important. Which is exactly what happened here.

I've been watching Star Trek nearly my entire life (30 years, so not a small stretch of time), and I can think of a few Red Shirt who died at the end of episodes. Off the top of my head, in TNG, there were one or two who were killed by Lore at the end of a cliffhanger episode where Data gets brainwashed by his brother and some of the crew get captured. 

[Blueprotoss]

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

No. You never answered my question.

You replied with...[/quote]Again have I answered the question while you're still making the assumptions of avoidance. 

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote... 

I asked for you to point out something else from the Shadow Broker's files that is proven to be false or incorrect or a rumor. You didn't do so. If you did, please Quote it. Its a very simple request.[/quote]Yet you assume that those files hold the facts or create contradictions while we are barely given any information on Drells in general.  Either a cure of any kind would have to be a miracle for Thane like the Lazarus Project for Shepard.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

But Dr. Chakwas DOES say Thane is perfect for a Lung Transplant. I don't have to say it, Its already been stated by a valid in game source.[/quote]Thats still an assumption and she still isn't a xenobiologist on Drells and she specializes in human biology.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...  

I'm just here looking for a debate while you're here to provide ego.[/quote]

Its a comon mistake that bugs the crap out of me...[/quote]You have to roll with the punches.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

But Thane DOES contradict himself several times in Mass Effect 3, as I extensivly stated on Page 20. I don't even see what your arguement about Joker and EDI is from ME2. They weren't written by Hepler in ME2.[/quote]Yet Thane is still willing to die and he still thinks about his path of redemption.  EDI and Joker were in a small romance in ME2 before her synthetic body appeared in ME3, which I wasn't surprised about.[/quote]

Yes, they had unresolved sexual tension or whatever. No, It was not a 'romance' in ME2. Even then, We brought up the 'sexbot' and the blatent fanservice, not the romance thing with Joker. Persionally, I was fine with that.[/quote]Sexual tension is created from a lot of characters in the ME series whether or not they're LI based.  Btw sex was a small portion of thought in Thane's mind.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

And, as I said, You can please most-everyone without pissing on your fans.[/quote]Thats an impossible feat based on how some people will always find an excuse or gripe to hate something.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

There's a difference between Conceptual Evolution and Cut Content.

Like, Eden Prime had a VERY different level design and had floating crop fields. That idea evolved to what we have in game now.

Callistan was a giant mining facility themed around magma and had office buildings and ete. We don't know anything about the plot of the area. The entire level was axed from the game period. It didn't evolve into something else; it was axed. They state this on the Mass Effect 1 Bonus Disk.[/quote]Nothinng is set in stone for every peice of content especially when the writing team will keep on pumping out script after script and the design team with sketch after sketch until the end of the project.  Everything is fair game to be removed at any time.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote... 

Ok, Let me rephrase. Biggest thing they took out THAT WE KNOW OF never made it past the conceptual stage. Scripts are also a form of Conceptual Evolution.[/quote]Thats a straw-mann based on how scripts will always be tweaked even when some Directors change things on the fly during the production process.

[quote]LanceSolous13 wrote...

Its not unreasonable. Bioware pissed on their fans with the endings. Naturally parts of their fanbase died. People left when they heard the arrogant "Artistic Integrety" thing. People left when the Extended Cut was nothing more than turd polishing. After the EC, Look at how many people went from extreme hatred of the endings to resigned out of simply the fact that Bioware wouldn't admit their faults/fix their endings.[/quote]Yes it is unreasonable based alone on how everyone has their own likes and dislikes just like how writing and art will always be subjective whether you love it or hate it.  There will always be a small group that has extreme hatred for something even when every game including everything Bioware has this happen to them.  Heck most of the "fans" that still hated the EC is because they didn't have their own completely unique endings or wanted a new set of endings.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 août 2012 - 12:47 .

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

I don't know how much Star Trek you've watched, but you don't have to die at the beginning to be a Red Shirt. You can have a Red Shirt at any point in the episode/game/whatever. It only has to be at any moment the writer wants to express the seriousness or danger of a situation by the loss of a character, but doesn't want to lose anyone the writer feels is important. Which is exactly what happened here.

I've been watching Star Trek nearly my entire life (30 years, so not a small stretch of time), and I can think of a few Red Shirt who died at the end of episodes. Off the top of my head, in TNG, there were one or two who were killed by Lore at the end of a cliffhanger episode where Data gets brainwashed by his brother and some of the crew get captured.

I have watched a lot of Star Trek episodes without focusing on a few series while the term "red shirt" focuses a quick random character that soon dies after its introduction in a quick fashion.  That didn't happen to Thane at all.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 août 2012 - 12:51 .