1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

I don't know how much Star Trek you've watched, but you don't have to die at the beginning to be a Red Shirt. You can have a Red Shirt at any point in the episode/game/whatever. It only has to be at any moment the writer wants to express the seriousness or danger of a situation by the loss of a character, but doesn't want to lose anyone the writer feels is important. Which is exactly what happened here.

I've been watching Star Trek nearly my entire life (30 years, so not a small stretch of time), and I can think of a few Red Shirt who died at the end of episodes. Off the top of my head, in TNG, there were one or two who were killed by Lore at the end of a cliffhanger episode where Data gets brainwashed by his brother and some of the crew get captured.

I have watched a lot of Star Trek episodes without focusing on a few series while the term "red shirt" focuses a quick random character that soon dies after its introduction in a quick fashion.  That didn't happen to Thane at all.

Thane may not have been a random character, but he was quickly disposed of soon after his reintroduction in ME3. The entirety of his content was totaled 5 minutes at most. You get one conversation with him in ME3. The next time you see him, he dies. Jenkins also only had one conversation and then he died.

What's even sadder is that Jenkins was intended as a Red Shirt, but he was still remembered three games later. People still remember him Not so with Thane. People couldn't be bothered to remember him 5 minutes after he died...

Modifié par Bluecansam, 11 août 2012 - 01:02 .

[Bluecansam]

Gah, stupid phone typos! And I can't go back to fix them because the edit box is all screwy on a mobile device. Grr...

[Blueprotoss]

Squeegee83 wrote...

I had to take a few moments out to think about this one. I own and run a theater and as I think of my staff, I can see what you are saying. Therefore, I have to agree, so I do hope my attitude now may hold influence, if any, for those in the future.

No problem and it some of it has already rubbed off on some people.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

True, I have caught a couple people taking it further than it should be. However, this is to be expected and learning who is doing what may take a few interactions with them to come to this conclusion, especially since it’s the internet.  I have also found people from a non-romance point of view taking it further than it needs to be.

I am not exactly sure what to call it, I’d like to say it’s out of passion, but sometimes it just comes off as selfishness.

Agreed.  i have noticed a lot of passion but most of that turns into selfishness based on a me me me outlook.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Please inform me why you believe how an “optional save” would not be a good experience.

It would have to be a miracle cure to save Thane based on a lot of unknown variables that most people don't think about.

Squeegee83 wrote...  

For me and I only speak from my own personal experience of ME3/Thane, but it felt cruel and I felt like I was being laughed at and was being called a “fool” by BioWare in the end. I hated how I found myself in life support after Thane’s death saying to myself… “What exactly would have been the problem if I was given the option to save Thane?” I know my game experience would have greatly improved by being able to save him.

Not all of us wanted to see him die; an option would have pleased both parties in regards of Thane.

People will always have differing points of view but adding a "cure" for Thane would have to add an option for every killable character in ME3 to do there job after a huge brush witth death.  We could get down to the nitty gritty by talking about the other characters that can die that people love while that wouldn't be a good idea based alone on its length.

Squeegee83 wrote...   

I have also too seen the harshness of some in favor of pro-life. Most of them, I have found to be tired now and just want their option to save him. A lot of them have been fighting for an option long before ME3 was ever released. I am one of them.

I personally don’t feel like it is a contradiction to Thane's character since BioWare released hints, clues and a promotion to a possible cure for Thane. I just felt jerk around in the end.

I’ve had many months now since the release of the game to think about this and I have come to accept it.  I traded my ME3 game for another game not so long ago. I believed back in March, I just needed time to except Thane’s outcome. However, as the months passed by… my desire to even finish the game grew dim. I think back to the release the game, when I stood in line at the midnight release and for what… to end up where I am today?

I can't help you there unless if Thane and everyone else gets their own version of a Lazarus Project.

Squeegee83 wrote...   

For sure, no romance will ever be perfect. However, Thane’s romance in ME3 falls flat compare to the other romances. A brief hospital visit, where the dialogue was poor... it just ended up as an insult than anything else. 

Thane still has the best romance out of the ME2 only sqaudmates even if its between friends while a prayer suits him pretty well.

Squeegee83 wrote...   

Glad to hear it 

Its always a good thing to do so.

[Bluecansam]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

I skimmed the essay. I can't agree with most of it. The general idea behind the post yes, but the explanations? No.

However, if there is one positive thing Kriomosexuals can take from this - Thane is the most unique LI.

I guess I don't need to point out that skimming is not the same as reading? But anyway, why don't you like the explanations? What do you disagree with?

If you mean he's the most unique LI in that he's the only one who has a forced death, then yes. Yes, he is.

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

Thane may not have been a random character, but he was quickly disposed of soon after his reintroduction in ME3. The entirety of his content was totaled 5 minutes at most. You get one conversation with him in ME3. The next time you see him, he dies. Jenkins also only had one conversation and then he died.

If you think that way about Thane then you have to say the same for Kirrahae and the Salarian Consoleor.  Either way they weren't treated like "red shirts" especially when the real "red shirts" get a couple minutes of face time like Jenkins.

Bluecansam wrote... 

What's even sadder is that Jenkins was intended as a Red Shirt, but he was still remembered three games later. People still remember him Not so with Thane. People couldn't be bothered to remember him 5 minutes after he died...

Jenkins will always be remembered just like Nihlus.

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Thane may not have been a random character, but he was quickly disposed of soon after his reintroduction in ME3. The entirety of his content was totaled 5 minutes at most. You get one conversation with him in ME3. The next time you see him, he dies. Jenkins also only had one conversation and then he died.

If you think that way about Thane then you have to say the same for Kirrahae and the Salarian Consoleor.  Either way they weren't treated like "red shirts" especially when the real "red shirts" get a couple minutes of face time like Jenkins.

But Kirrahe and the salarian councilor ARE Red Shirts. The only reason they die is to express to the viewer that Kai Leng is dangerous. That's it. And, as I said, Thane only got a few minutes face time in ME3. How is that different from Jenkins?

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote... 

What's even sadder is that Jenkins was intended as a Red Shirt, but he was still remembered three games later. People still remember him Not so with Thane. People couldn't be bothered to remember him 5 minutes after he died...

Jenkins will always be remembered just like Nihlus.

Exactly. They died at the beginning of the first game and are remembered. People still talk about them in the third game. Not so with Thane.

[Roxy]

Kirrahe and the Salarian Councilor have a chance to live...but not Thane,he dies offscreen even if you don't interact with him! So yeah I agree with Bluecansam,Thane was turned into a Red shirt! *facepalm*

If only Bioware gave us an option to save him/and cure him ( I hope they will give us an option in the near future) in the first place we wouldn't be having these conversations!

Modifié par Roxy, 11 août 2012 - 06:09 .

[LanceSolous13]

But Dr. Chakwas IS a valid source.

Why would the Illusive Man hire a doctor that cannot take care of the crew, ESPICIALLY if she can't take care of the one person who will need to see constant medical supervision. If Grunt were to get horribly injured and need imideate medical attention, Why would Chakwas be hired if she if she isn't able to provide that help?

Based on the fact that Chakwas was hired for a multi-species crew, She would logically be able to take care of all of them because she was hired to do excactly that. If she can't take care of Garrus, Samara, Thane, Tali, Grunt, or Mordin, then why is she here?

Also, if she's writing that report in the first place, then she is qualified to be stating such. If she is unqualified, Then the report wouldn't exist. But it does and thus its logical to once again come to the conclusion that she is more than able to take care of Thane.

And, once again, Thane DID NOT want to die at the end of ME2 so its illogical for him to be accepting of his death in Mass Effect 3.

[o Ventus]

Somebody said Dr. Chakwas wouldn't be a valid source for a potential treatment for Thane?

So, a doctor who is extensively practiced in medicine, and knows numerous types of xenobiology and xenophysiology (enough to recommend that Thane get a lung transplant) is not a valid source of information?

wat

[Renmiri1]

o Ventus wrote...

Somebody said Dr. Chakwas wouldn't be a valid source for a potential treatment for Thane?

So, a doctor who is extensively practiced in medicine, and knows numerous types of xenobiology and xenophysiology (enough to recommend that Thane get a lung transplant) is not a valid source of information?

wat

Is just BlueProtoss.. Nothing serves as reference but Bioware material according to him, and when we give in game references to a cure, given by Bioware, he says those are not valid..

I don't think he has ever heard of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 12 août 2012 - 08:22 .

[ShallowlLife9871]

 So, here are MY thoughts on this subject.

I like Thane. I would always talk to him in ME2 without
fail. He is an interesting Character and has been a Bro to My Sheps. and yes, I
did romance him.

I do feel like that his character needs at lest one more conversation.
Espsaliy if you romanced him, and maybe a line form Garrus in fount of the memorial
wall. “ I’m sorry about Thane” ect

But what I feel is this [ and I know I will be shot down for
this]: Thane’s Romance is about Spending time with the one you love. Not about
Cures popping out of thin air.

Here are my reasons.

Thane is a tragic character. Form his disease to his son, to
the death of Irikah, Thane was set up to be tragic.  His romance was NEVER going to be a happy one.
However, that doesn’t mean his romance was never a good one. Ie Romeo and Juliet.
But the over theme of his romance, and character is spending time with the
people you love. While he does become afraid of death, I can see him accepting it
again as his disease got worse.

The cure it’s self, however it is presented in game, WOULD
be popping out of thin air. When we meet thane, he is in the LATE stages of a terminal
disease. The chance of a cure working is virtually 1%.   And before people say Genophage cure. The Hannar
have only recently started working on a cure. By the time they would have found
something, tiral and error, massed produced it for the drell, Thane would have
died anyway. While people have been working on a cure a cure for the genophage
for thousands of years longer.

So yeah, these are my thoughts on a Cure for Thane.

[LanceSolous13]

But there ARE cures in ME2 and ME3. Its not popping out of nowhere..

[DineBoo]

But there ARE cures in ME2 and ME3. Its not popping out of nowhere..

This. It's like BW went and stuck fingers in their ears and said "Clues? What clues? La la la..." and wanted everyone to forget about it.

If they didn't want Thane fans to latch on to it, maybe they shouldn't have written the clues in Me2 and sponsored a Cure for Thane in the first place.

And even though this thread is about a cure, it's mostly how shoddily Thane was treated as an LI in ME3. As a Thane fan who my femShep considered a friend, I wasn't hoping a cure. I even thought he would die. But I didn't expect for him to die so early in the game and without acknowledgement from the other characters!

If I though his death was shoddy as someone who didn't romance him, I can only imagine how his romancers felt..

I'm sure most of the romancers wouldn't have minded his death if it happened way later in the game, and they plenty of time with him. But no, he dies for a plot point.

The very least they could have done was acknowledge Thane's death, locked in femShep so she wouldn't get hit on by other characters, and gave a nice flashback romance scene. At the very least.

[LanceSolous13]

There's issues with locking Thane in for post-death. Some would want to stay Loyal to him after death while other would want to move on.

I think that, instead of the really sort of "ouch" friendzone comments, There could be a third option for Drell lickers for Shepard to just state that she appreceates the gesture but Thane was her true love or something. There, recogition of his death in a conversation.

Winner winner, Where's my chicken dinner?

[wildannie]

@ShadowILife9871

I agree with Dineboo & Lance, the information on potential cures/treatments were provided by BioWare, you cannot judge the presentation of Thane in ME3 without taking those into account.

I personally believe that the shoddy treatment of Thane (and Jacob) has everything to do with prioritising their fanbases and deciding that the female players were not worthy of the resources, and nothing to do with artistic vision and character coherance. It is easy for BW to claim otherwise (they can say anything they want) but I know in my gut that they know that they shafted the female fanbase.

I'm glad that you are happy to see Thane as simply a tragic figure, I would argue that there is no room for tragic figures as LI characters in an RPG game. Railroading a character who is central to some shepards story is a very stupid thing to do when trying to create something the players can ENJOY. RPGs are about choice, every choice that is removed kills the game a little for someone. Having Shepard and crew not even care about the railroaded death piles copious amounts of insult onto the injury.

IF bioware had always known Thane would die they wouldn't have planted all those clues in the firstplace, and if they'd cared about quality and integrity they would have made sure their checkov's guns went off in ME3 giving players, at the very least, plausible explanations as to why he had not sought them out. Bioware KNOW they should have provided a choice with Thane, they chose not to as catering to the female fanbase was not a priority, its all about corporate greed.

Modifié par wildannie, 13 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[Roxy]

wildannie wrote...

@ShadowILife9871

I agree with Dineboo & Lance, the information on potential cures/treatments were provided by BioWare, you cannot judge the presentation of Thane in ME3 without taking those into account.

I personally believe that the shoddy treatment of Thane (and Jacob) has everything to do with prioritising their fanbases and deciding that the female players were not worthy of the resources, and nothing to do with artistic vision and character coherance. It is easy for BW to claim otherwise (they can say anything they want) but I know in my gut that they know that they shafted the female fanbase.

I'm glad that you are happy to see Thane as simply a tragic figure, I would argue that there is no room for tragic figures as LI characters in an RPG game. Railroading a character who is central to some shepards story is a very stupid thing to do when trying to create something the players can ENJOY. RPGs are about choice, every choice that is removed kills the game a little for someone. Having Shepard and crew not even care about the railroaded death piles copious amounts of insult onto the injury.

IF bioware had always known Thane would die they wouldn't have planted all those clues in the firstplace, and if they'd cared about quality and integrity they would have made sure their checkov's guns went off in ME3 giving players, at the very least, plausible explanations as to why he had not sought them out. Bioware KNOW they should have provided a choice with Thane, they chose not to as catering to the female fanbase was not a priority, its all about corporate greed.

Well said wildannie!

[mythlover20]

I agree wildannie! It's just another example of the sexist bigotry that permeates business. Especially the video game industry.

[LanceSolous13]

Since he hasn't posted for a few days now, Do you think he's gone?

[Skullheart]

mythlover20 wrote...

I agree wildannie! It's just another example of the sexist bigotry that permeates business. Especially the video game industry.

It's called artistic integrity.

[Renmiri1]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Since he hasn't posted for a few days now, Do you think he's gone?

Why you ask ? Missing our pet troll ? 

Nah, like a bad rash he always comes back 

[Roxy]

Actually Steve can be saved I have seen a video on Youtube where Steve put up Shepards name at the end...so it's just Thane who we can't save...how sexist Bioware!

Modifié par Roxy, 14 août 2012 - 08:19 .

[LanceSolous13]

Actually, Steve can be saved. Just go to the Memorial Wall with him. : / Not that hard.

Its Thane and Legion who will die every playthrough gaurenteed. The Legion fans are upset with his death as well, but Legion isn't an LI so they aren't as vocal.

[o Ventus]

Wait, if there are "unknown variables" at work in regards to a cure, then how do you know about them? They aren't really "unknown" then, are they?

What are these variables?