1198 réponses à ce sujet

[LanceSolous13]

Errrrrr....I have no idea how that would work. At all. And, it feels like a bit of a rehash of Mordin's death in that way.

Why not just simply require both Kirahee and Thane to be alive for Thane to survive Kai Leng. Kirahee takes the sword for Thane and gives him the chance to fire at him. Leng tires to dodge but is still hit in the legs and he makes his escape. SIMPLE.

[Bluecansam]

I'm not saying it should be exactly the same as Mordin's, but a similar construct would make it so that the option to save Thane would 1) be difficult to obtain, 2) a difficult choice to make, and 3) have a real, strong impact on the story. Also, your scenario doesn't take the Kepral's Syndrome into account. In your suggestion, it only makes sure that Thane doesn't die by Kai Leng's hand. It doesn't prevent him from dying from his disease.

[LanceSolous13]

Which he could still survive till the end of the game is he survives Leng... He had 12 months till really rigerous physical activity would be too much for him 6 months ago. He'd be fine.

Or....

We have a mission to Kahje around the size of Grissom Academy or the Monistary Mission which picks up a cure and dispurces it to the Drell. After that, we give the cure to Thane.

Thane will still end up dying at Leng's hands unless Kirahee is alive.

[Bluecansam]

Well, what I'm trying to do is present an option to save Thane where it's not really a simple fix, as that seems to be one of the major problems our opponents see with saving Thane. Having him live until the end of the game and then die is certainly an option, though I think a lot of us SaveThaners were looking for something a little less bitter and a little more sweet. I think treatment is the best path to follow, as it wouldn't require a "miracle cure" that so many people think is what we all want.

I'm thinking of something akin to coldwetn0se's DLC proposal (as seen here). If we're not going for a full DLC, then maybe a hybrid between what you were thinking and the more complicated stuff I was thinking of. For instance, Shepard could approach Thane and ask him about the lung transplant s/he read about in the Shadow Broker files. (If LotSB hadn't been purchased, it could be intel sent along by Liara or her little drone friend) If Thane is loyal and you have a high reputation for this point in the game, he agrees to the lung transplant. Easier relationship check if romanced. If Thane is not loyal or your reputation isn't high enough, he refuses treatment. If Thane does get the lung transplant, he is recovering in the hospital from surgery, so he's unable to save the salarian councilor. The councilor only survives if Kirrahe is alive. If Thane doesn't get the transplant, he fights Kai Leng as usual and is the one to save the councilor.

While it's sounds complicated, all BioWare would need to add for this choice to take place is a conversation when you first meet up with him at the hospital. Cut scenes for Kirrahe saving the councilor or the councilor dying are already in place, and you don't need anything extra for Thane not being present for a while. Then the rest is just stuff BioWare should have had anyway - extra conversations and romance content.

[LanceSolous13]

Oh.

That's better. I was just finding it rediculious we'd have to feel like ****s for saving our LI. That would be beyond stupid.

[Tasha Nar Rayya]

I think that hypothetically, this proposal is all very nice before the release of the game. And everyone knows how much I love Thane's character, but what is done is done. Realistically, when the original game has already fulfilled his character arc of a compulsory death, then Bioware will certainly not change his character arc in some DLC content.

Look at the DLC used for the endings as an example. It did not change the ending, it simply added extra content to it. I think that Thane fans (myself included) simply need to admit that Thane's death is canon.

There is no harm in speculation of course, but there is no point in thinking that Bioware 'owes' Thane fans and that Thane 'deserves a better ending.' Because it is not in Bioware's best interests to do that, they have established his story arc, and there can be no changing that.

I do agree however, that Mordin's death was orchestrated perfectly. In ME2 he was one of my favourite characters, but in ME3 he really attained that 'legendary' status because his martyrdom was so touching. It is a big shame they didn't achieve the same level of success with Thane's death, but what is done is done.

[Visii]

I'd say there's a point in thinking that Bioware "owes" Thane fans and that Thane 'deserves a better ending'. I certainly think that even if nothing changes, making our displeasure known about this and not just just shrugging our shoulders and moving on is the best thing we can do.

We're paying customers and we're not happy with what we got. BioWare isn't above retconning other LI/Character deaths (Leliana anyone?) and seeing as hardly anyone talks about Thane after that stupid fight, adding a divergent path where he doesn't die wouldn't affect or contradict anything else in the story. It would be adding extra content.

I Refuse to accept that Thane's death is cannon because it was so badly done. Any DLC that tries to build on a crappy foundation, adding talks with other characters about Thane, or Shepard having flashbacks is going to suck because everyone else is actually going to get interactions with their LI, and we'll be excluded because a poorly orchestrated fight scene could fit the budget?

People could have said," what's done is done" with the original endings to ME3....

[Tasha Nar Rayya]

I see your point. I guess I am a different kind of person. I prefer to try and look at the game as a whole rather than focus on one single character and how badly his death was handled.

I can understand why you want your voice to be heard, and before ME3, I was willing to face that Thane may have a compulsory death in ME3. However it was more poorly executed than I imagined, but Bioware must have realised there mistake as the game was in production, as with the ending.

As for the ending DLC, it did give the protesting fans a voice, and yes, free DLC was granted. But it didn't change anything canonically, just some additional cutscenes for a bit of closure. The essence was still the same.

In reference to Thane, even if some sort of LI-related content was produced (like LotSB) then the essence of Thane's story will still be the same. There may just be something similar to the letter he wrote in ME2.

I just don't want the reputation of Thane fans to be as people who are spending too much energy on voicing the injustices against their fandom, that they come across as being negative.

[DineBoo]

If Thane fans are "negative" it's because they keep getting trolled by BW and others. They constantly have to keep hearing arguments "You knew he was going to die lolololol" or "His death was awesome why are you complaining" or "You should have romance Kaidan/Liara/Garrus" and such.

Thane was an LI intended for female fans. For BW to do this and forget about him was horrible. Also the fact that he is one of two femShep LIs that gets cut out.

I don't think anyone was expecting to him to be fully cured, but the fans fans are only going off clues BW themselves put out there. It's not like these possible clues were pulled from thin air.

Why is it that Thane fans can't complain about his treatment and have to be happy for what they got, yet Liara fans can campaign for little blue children and Miranda/Jack/Ashley can campaign for more content? Even Kelly gets support. But Thane?He was dieing. Get over it.

Jacob fans, the ones clinging to some hope that Jacob beinfg an unpopular choice wouldn't be in vain, are pretty much run off the boards due to BW's character assassination. And because poor Jacob was so unpopular, it was easier to sweep what they did to him under the rug.

So Thane fans shouldn't have to sit back and take it. If anything, I hope they keep fighting because it shows how badly femShep was treated in the LI department. The only thing I want from is BW is to let fans know if they were going to do anything else with Thane or not so his fans could decide for themselves if they wanted to keep fighting.

Long story short, Thane fans are "negative" only because it seems like their feelings were invalidated while everyone could campaign for what they want and get tons of support.

[Visii]

Tasha Nar Rayya wrote...

I see your point. I guess I am a different kind of person. I prefer to try and look at the game as a whole rather than focus on one single character and how badly his death was handled.

I can understand why you want your voice to be heard, and before ME3, I was willing to face that Thane may have a compulsory death in ME3. However it was more poorly executed than I imagined, but Bioware must have realised there mistake as the game was in production, as with the ending.

As for the ending DLC, it did give the protesting fans a voice, and yes, free DLC was granted. But it didn't change anything canonically, just some additional cutscenes for a bit of closure. The essence was still the same.

In reference to Thane, even if some sort of LI-related content was produced (like LotSB) then the essence of Thane's story will still be the same. There may just be something similar to the letter he wrote in ME2.

I just don't want the reputation of Thane fans to be as people who are spending too much energy on voicing the injustices against their fandom, that they come across as being negative.

I look at the whole game as a rushed train wreck of auto-dialogue, cameos, nonsensical gameplay elements, absurd character and plot developments and a determined effort to negate the impact previous decisions might have had on the finale.

I don't think I'm focusing too much on one character; they can't fix the whole game without redoing it, but they could fix things for the ME2 LI's if they work LI interaction into whatever DLC's they have coming up.

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Thats not a cop out, plothole, or bad writing at all based on how transplants aren't the cure for diseases.  Maybe you should pay attention to what Bioware tells us instead of getting rapped up in only opinions.

I guess you believe anything your told them huh

Either way you can't refuse Bioware with ME lore unless if you choose to make your own fan fiction like anyone does with any other of the many comic, novel, movie, tv show, and video game based series.

[Blueprotoss]

Roxy wrote...

I said he was turned into a Red shirt...I didn't say he was one from the beginning!

If he was a red shirt in ME3 then he would have died randomlly seconds or minutes after his introduction like how the red shirt term was coined in Star Trek.

Roxy wrote... 

You are a waste  of my time and others...squegee,lance and the other people have explained over and over and everything you have posted has no point whatsoever..you make your self look as if you only read very little with what everybody has posted here,do you even think on what they have said? I highly doubt it! 

Ironicaly if I was a waste of time then I would be trying to turn opinion into fact just like you and Lance since I can have a simple debate with a couple other users without a problem.

Roxy wrote... 

Your one-sided and this will be the last time I say anything to you because I don't argue with people like you I wouldn't want to lower myself to your level you just might beat me with experience!

I'm not one-sided at all and its not my fault that I mainly focus on the facts instead of opinion.  If you did have the "experience" that you're talking about then you wouldn't be on that high horse of yours based on how evryone has an opinion just like everyone has their own tastes.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 17 août 2012 - 03:36 .

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

@LanceSolous13 And you were afraid our pet troll would abandon us!

BlueProtoss.. read the definition of the logical fallacy.. Then think for about 2 seconds.. Chawkes was written by Bioware but Chawkes is "no true Scottsman",i,e, not a true Bioware source because.. because shut up that's why ?

I love how you're actually using the logical fallacies because you don't want to except certain things like how opinion doesn't trump fact or established lore.

[Blueprotoss]

samb wrote...

Umm  a transplant is a cure for most diseases that need one, like a liver transplant. If you have hepatic (liver) failure and you get a new liver you no longer have liver failure. 
You might still be an alcoholic, but your liver isn't failing. You might need to take immune suppressive medication to avoid organ rejection, but you don't have liver failure.

Yet you condicted yourself since a liver transplant isn't a cure for alcoholism especially when a lot of alcohols end up getting multiple liver transplants either by organ rejection or more alcohol abuse.

samb wrote... 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.  If Kepral's syndrome was damaged lungs due to too much moisture, then a transplant would cure it. It will not make the new lung immune to moisture though and unless the drell wise up and use exo suits or dehumidifier rebreathers, Kepral's syndrome will reoccur. I always thought it was stupid of them for not protecting themselves.

If I didn't know what I was takking about then I would be assuming that Kepral Syndrome can be cured by a lung transplant while no disease can be cured alone with a transplant since the ultimate disease of death isn't curable.  Everyone will die and nobody is immortal.

[Blueprotoss]

[quote]Bluecansam wrote...

HA! It's funny because they both died in ME1 in my playthrough.[/quote]Oh well its up to you if that happens to Kirrahe and the
Salarian Councilor  in ME1 just like a good portion of the deaths in ME1, ME2, and ME3.

[quote]Yet there was no character developement for Jenkins and Nihlus while there was no cjoice to save or kill them, which is why they're red shirts.

[quote]Bluecansam wrote... 

And there was no character development for Thane and no choice to save him, which is why HE'S a redshirt in ME3. Thank you for proving my point.[/quote]If there was no character developement then Thane wouldn't have been in ME3 and the meaning of the term red shirt is when a random character gets killed seconds or minutes with a random death after their introduction.  It doesn't matter if you have a choice to not save a character while yo don't hear that many Legion or Tali fans having unavoidable deaths in most of their situations.  Characters have died in the ME series as story elements before Thane and there's nothing new about that.

[Blueprotoss]

Visii wrote...

I look at the whole game as a rushed train wreck of auto-dialogue, cameos, nonsensical gameplay elements, absurd character and plot developments and a determined effort to negate the impact previous decisions might have had on the finale.

You would have an easier case if you were talking about ME2 on all of those points then compared to ME3 based on developement time alone.  ME3's developement and production started when ME2 was started, which is why the PS3's version of ME2 had the ME3 engine.

Visii wrote... 

I don't think I'm focusing too much on one character; they can't fix the whole game without redoing it, but they could fix things for the ME2 LI's if they work LI interaction into whatever DLC's they have coming up.

What is done is done especially when you're talking about ME2 change.  I personally would love Legion and Anderson not to die while its up to Bioware not me or a group of people to decide.

[AresKeith]

@Blueprotoss and yet there were game developers like Bioware who has changed things in their games because their fans didn't like it, so once again your "claim" is invalid

[LanceSolous13]

Ha. No reply on what I said. Ignoring the facts are we?

[RShara]

I'm telling you, the entire argument is "They shouldn't because they didn't"

[Blueprotoss]

DineBoo wrote...

If Thane fans are "negative" it's because they keep getting trolled by BW and others. They constantly have to keep hearing arguments "You knew he was going to die lolololol" or "His death was awesome why are you complaining" or "You should have romance Kaidan/Liara/Garrus" and such.

I can only spek for this topic while it shows us that the "trolling" here is done more so from the Thane "fans".

DineBoo wrote... 

Thane was an LI intended for female fans. For BW to do this and forget about him was horrible. Also the fact that he is one of two femShep LIs that gets cut out.

You forgot about Kelly and Garrus for FemShep while you do get a romance with Liara through the LotSB.

DineBoo wrote... 

I don't think anyone was expecting to him to be fully cured, but the fans fans are only going off clues BW themselves put out there. It's not like these possible clues were pulled from thin air.

Experimental procedures were being looked at in ME2 that would have taken years not months, but if we're tallking about this topic then a lot of Thane "fans" wanted a cure even if it was a miracle.

DineBoo wrote... 

Why is it that Thane fans can't complain about his treatment and have to be happy for what they got, yet Liara fans can campaign for little blue children and Miranda/Jack/Ashley can campaign for more content? Even Kelly gets support. But Thane?He was dieing. Get over it.

Each LI is treated differently even when we're only talking about Kaidan and Ashley, which this isn't surprising in RPGs.  There are always favorites like Liara while you forget that Kelly and Liara are romances for both Male and Female Shepards.  You also forget that Liara got her own DLC in ME2 based on her established arc in ME2 with the Shadow Broker.

DineBoo wrote... 

Jacob fans, the ones clinging to some hope that Jacob beinfg an unpopular choice wouldn't be in vain, are pretty much run off the boards due to BW's character assassination. And because poor Jacob was so unpopular, it was easier to sweep what they did to him under the rug.

This isn't that surprisingly based on how Jacob was already acting like his father in ME2 before ME3.

DineBoo wrote... 

So Thane fans shouldn't have to sit back and take it. If anything, I hope they keep fighting because it shows how badly femShep was treated in the LI department. The only thing I want from is BW is to let fans know if they were going to do anything else with Thane or not so his fans could decide for themselves if they wanted to keep fighting.

How was FemShep treated badly when everyone of her LIs were available other then Jacob based on his own story unless if you pissed off Kaidan in ME2 without an apology in ME3.  Yes you don't get a sex scene from Thane while you still get a special scene and a romance with him in ME3.

DineBoo wrote... 

Long story short, Thane fans are "negative" only because it seems like their feelings were invalidated while everyone could campaign for what they want and get tons of support.

Everyone has their own dislikes and likes while it doesn't matter what amount of support are behind a campaign unless if the Developer, Bioware, decides to do so while that still doesn't mean you'll love it or hate it.

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

@Blueprotoss and yet there were game developers like Bioware who has changed things in their games because their fans didn't like it, so once again your "claim" is invalid

Thats called contructive and intelligent feedback that isn't focused on BSN if changes happened while you'll still "claim" that a change was "fan" focused.  You still need to learn to pik your battles correctly and practice what you preach.

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Ha. No reply on what I said. Ignoring the facts are we?

Yet you still replied and ignoring what Bioware has already established. 

RShara wrote...

I'm telling you, the entire argument is "They shouldn't because they didn't"

Like what many people have said before me "what done is done" or "its up to Bioware".

[Taboo]

I'm not even sure if I'm reading criticism here. I'm reading a bunch of weasel words and non sequiturs.

Are you aware that they retcon ALL the time?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 17 août 2012 - 04:42 .

[krukow]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm not even sure if I'm reading criticism here. I'm reading a bunch of weasel words and non sequiturs.

Are you aware that they retcon ALL the time?

What did they retcon before the EC?  I can't think of anything (not paying attention to lore is not retconning).

Not baiting, I just can't think of anything before the EC (and the EC retcon was NEEDED).

[Taboo]

krukow wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm not even sure if I'm reading criticism here. I'm reading a bunch of weasel words and non sequiturs.

Are you aware that they retcon ALL the time?

What did they retcon before the EC?  I can't think of anything (not paying attention to lore is not retconning).

Not baiting, I just can't think of anything before the EC (and the EC retcon was NEEDED).

The Council and the Reapers.

Addition of Thermal Clips.

The Strength of the Reapers (namely Sovreign)

Those are big plot changes.

[RShara]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm not even sure if I'm reading criticism here. I'm reading a bunch of weasel words and non sequiturs.

Are you aware that they retcon ALL the time?

Yup and yup, which is why I find these arguments SO entertaining.