1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

Emeraldfern wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

It seems like you're also paying too much to the "assasssin part" of him instead of his character.  I guess you're not a fan of someone saving lives based on his past bad deeds thats dieing from a fatal illness.

No.

I focused on the fact that Thane is a father. And the fact that Kolyat still needs him. That while he could not protect and be there for Irikah, he could protect and be with his son.

Thane isn't immortal and him being a father won't give him an immunity to death.  You forgot that Thane and Kolyat excepted his death from the beginning while Shepard eventually excepted his death after the sacrafice in ME3.

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
Really if Thane was a red shirt then he would have randomly died  before the Suicide Miission in ME2.  Thane died in a realistic way like how a normal human would die by a decapitation or a Quarian would die from a suit breach without antibiotics/antivirals.

You noticed Thane was NOT a red shirt in ME2. Good for you!

Now go play his 3-4 lines of dialog on ME3 and tell me the rich layered and conflicted character from ME2 is there on ME3 at all. He is not. His new writer is lazy and a mediocre writer.

You're rather quick to except that while he still isn't one in ME3.

He's flawed and isn't immortal just like everyone in ME.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:30 .

[Renmiri1]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Emeraldfern wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

It seems like you're also paying too much to the "assasssin part" of him instead of his character.  I guess you're not a fan of someone saving lives based on his past bad deeds thats dieing from a fatal illness.

No.

I focused on the fact that Thane is a father. And the fact that Kolyat still needs him. That while he could not protect and be there for Irikah, he could protect and be with his son.

Thane isn't immortal and him being a father won't give him an immunity to death.  You forgot that Thane and Kolyat excepted his death from the beginning while Shepard eventually excepted his death after the sacrafice in ME3.

It didn't give him an immunity to death but also didn't make him eager to die. Jumping on Kai Lame's sword was completely out of character for a father worrying about a son that needed him. He had also refused to accompany Sheppard in her missions because he was "not at his best" so him getting involved on that consul assassination was also out of character. He knew he was weak and not at his best, he knew Sheppard was there. There was simply no reason whatsoever for him to not let Sheppard handle Kai Lame.

But it did make an "awsum death" for the shallow people who seldon pay attention to the red shirt who dies.. 

[Emeraldfern]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Thane isn't immortal and him being a father won't give him an immunity to death.  You forgot that Thane and Kolyat excepted his death from the beginning while Shepard eventually excepted his death after the sacrafice in ME3.

So, because he is terminally ill he should throw away any concern for Kolyat?

Since when does Kolyat state he is at peace with Thane's fate?

And I never saw my Shepard accepting anything about Thane's death, infact she barely said anything or reacted to it. Whereas in ME2, she had all kinds of things to say in regards as to what Thane could do while living.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 15 juillet 2012 - 02:37 .

[mythlover20]

Pitznik wrote...

*snipped for the sake of not creating an obscenely large wall-o-text*

@mythlover20 - but that means only that the illness was badly shown ingame, doesn't change the purpose of the character and his story. If you're right (and I assume you are), it should only change what he tells us about his condition, and not his fate.

It's only part of the problem with Thane in ME3. It relates to the "cure" because all of the foreshadowed cures that appeared in Me2 (Hanar Genetic Program) LotSB (Lung Transplant), the CDN (Eupulmos Device - aka "Medigel for the lungs" - written before BioWare closed the survers and fans took over), Bioware "Save Thane" campaigns (refer to above links from Remini) and even ME3 (Alien Medi-Gel side-quest - related to the Eupulmos Device sort of) WOULD have given Thane a longer life-expectancy. He still would have died from the disease, but he would have lived long enough to have some sort-of-life with Shepard and his son, especially given his romance scene in ME2.

IF the disease hadn't been retconned and changed, ALL of these would have been viable, and not at all trivial, because he still would have eventually died because of Keprals, and the romance then would have retained it's bittersweet emotional overtone that it had in ME2. Liara actually said it best in LotSB "It's not about how much time you have. It's about what you do with it." Or something like that. I'm afraid I can't remember the exact quote.

That's another problem, related to the content. The tone isn't bittersweet, it's bitter. Thane pushes Shepard away, Shepard is more interested in the man who abandoned her on Horizon, the single two kisses for the romance are both wildly inapproprate and ill-timed (Paragon kiss should have been a hug and a kiss, and should have been when Shepard first saw Thane, and the porn scene was... well... badly written porn. No, I'll explain properly, It should have been a moment when the two were simply lost in each other. It should have been tender and loving. Instead it was overy-sexual, nothing but hands and horrible noises, and was conducted in front of dozens of other people, and turned Shepard into a sexual predator). If they showed Shepard actually caring for Thane, say when he was having a bad health day, then it would have been bittersweet. It would have been infinitely more tear-worthy, and would have done a lot more justice to the character. It also would have made it more bittersweet if he received a temporary... reprieve, if you will... if he managed to get the lung transplant or something, because then Shepard and the player both would DEFINITELY have know what was in store, because they would have already been through most of it.

It's similiar to a person being on dialysis every day for a number of years finally receiving a kidney transplant. You don't think it's at all trivial because they've gotten it, you're just relieved you get to spend a little more time with the person you love.

[Blueprotoss]

Squeegee83 wrote...

That is what I like to call an understatement. Emerald and everyone here is HUGE fans of Thane. That's why we are part of the fanbase. Yes? Makes sense? We focus on all aspects of the character and we certainly see flaws in how he was handle, especially for a romance Thane. 

I could careless if a character died in a reasonable or character driven like Thane did.  Another example is Aeris from FF7, Johnson in Halo 3,  Bill in L4D: the Sacrafice, and John Marston in Red Dead Redemption to name a few.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

I saw Thane's soul. 

Thane has no soul just like everyone else in ME.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

You just see someone with a disease. 

I see a flawed character on a journey of redemption based on his previous bad deeds.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

There is nothing wrong with having hope, there is nothing wrong in wanting to save someone, there is certainly nothing wrong in our viewpoints. 

 Hope is useless against death because everyone eventually dies.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Call it bad writing on BioWare's behalf and now they want to hide behind a life lesson, "People die". 

Yotu act as if Thane is the only death in the ME universe, which that isn't true if thats the case.

Squeegee83 wrote... 

Call it experience on my behalf, but BioWare needs to grow up. If they think we all will stupidity fall in line when comes to Thane -then they are fools. They themselves promoted hope for Thane, they should have followed through with it. 

Pot caling kettle black and it seems yo don't follow that many stories with death involved in them.

[Gold Dragon]

Hmmm....

First, the main story would have to be changed, and quite drastically, too.  Thane did NOT die of Kepral's Syndrome, nor did he die from the stab wound.  Thane died because Leng needed to defeat Shepard on Thessia, then face Shepard again on Chronos Station. Leng is N7 blahblahblah.....


I think that Thane should have killed Kai Leng, then died from his injuries.  Then some memorial on the Normandy where Liara, VS (if alive AND allowed back on the Normandy), Joker, Garrus (if alive), Vega, and Shepard standing at the memorial, and Shepard places Thane's placard on the Memorial (with tears if romanced). 

Thessia could have then been handled much simpler:  Cerberus had already gotten the data and left.  Joe Bimbo the Cerberus Assault Trooper stays behind with the same message that Leng handled, then gets killed when some reaper or other starts demolishing the Temple.  Shepard is still defeated, and no Leng crap.

And the Final Battle on Chronos Station?  How about a final wave of Phantoms instead?  Or two?

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

It didn't give him an immunity to death but also didn't make him eager to die. Jumping on Kai Lame's sword was completely out of character for a father worrying about a son that needed him. He had also refused to accompany Sheppard in her missions because he was "not at his best" so him getting involved on that consul assassination was also out of character. He knew he was weak and not at his best, he knew Sheppard was there. There was simply no reason whatsoever for him to not let Sheppard handle Kai Lame.

But it did make an "awsum death" for the shallow people who seldon pay attention to the red shirt who dies.

Thane excepted his death when he got the news just like Kolyat.

You still don't know what the term "red shirt" means since Thane didn't die in a meaningless and random way.  Either way Thane died as a warrior protecting the innocent just like his characterization.

[Blueprotoss]

Emeraldfern wrote...

So, because he is terminally ill he should throw away any concern for Kolyat?

Everyone eventually dies while those two know death on a personal basis.

Emeraldfern wrote... 

Since when does Kolyat state he is at peace with Thane's fate?

I see missed you missed all the dialogue in Thane's last conversation in ME3.

Emeraldfern wrote... 

And I never saw my Shepard accepting anything about Thane's death, infact she barely said anything or reacted to it. Whereas in ME2, she had all kinds of things to say in regards as to what Thane could do while living.

That means your Shepard wasn't friendly enough with him either as a comrade or a partner.

[Renmiri1]

Thread troll is trolling.. YAWNNNN


When you can cite dialog or any background for your pretense that you know Thane better than we Thane fans. Then I'll treat you seriously. Meanwhile feel free to keep bumping the thread into the first page

Modifié par Renmiri1, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[Bluecansam]

Kolyat said Thane saved the councilor. He didn't say anything along the lines of, "I'm totally okay with the fact that my dad is dying."

[Renmiri1]

BlueProtoss is under the delusion his opinion and insults are substitites for quoting in game dialog and citing in game facts. So far it is all he has used to back his assertions.

[CHALET]

mythlover20 wrote...

I get the feeling here that none of you have ever had to sit back and watch a loved one die. No one, it is, except the Thane frienders and Thane mancers themselves.

That's a... pretty damn ignorant statement to make.

And here cometh Renmiri1 again to remind us everybody who disagrees is a troll.

Modifié par CHALET, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Thread troll is trolling.. YAWNNNN

I see that you don't know what "trolling" means based on your misuse of the word.

Renmiri1 wrote... 

When you can cite dialog or any background for your pretense that you know Thane better than we Thane fans. Then I'll treat you seriously. Meanwhile feel free to keep bumping the thread into the first page

Ir'onically you don'tknow Thane that well especially when you resort to insulting people.

Renmiri1 wrote...

BlueProtoss is under the delusion his opinion and insults are substitites for quoting in game dialog and citing in game facts. So far it is all he has used to back his assertions.

 Pot calling the kettle black.

[Blueprotoss]

Bluecansam wrote...

Kolyat said Thane saved the councilor. He didn't say anything along the lines of, "I'm totally okay with the fact that my dad is dying."

Yet he doesn't need to use that phrase to except his father's death.

[Renmiri1]

CHALET wrote...

mythlover20 wrote...

I get the feeling here that none of you have ever had to sit back and watch a loved one die. No one, it is, except the Thane frienders and Thane mancers themselves.

That's a... pretty damn ignorant statement to make.

And here cometh Renmiri1 again to remind us everybody who disagrees is a troll.

Challet, have you been reading the thread ? You know blanket statemets without informing oneself are bad, right  ? At least you keep telling others that, so why not live by your own phylosophy ?

Mr. Troll has been telling us we have not befriended / romanced Thane properly because he is absolutely positively sure he is right and we are wrong. Except that he has yet to cite one single line of game dialog.

Now some people would notice the arrogance and ignorance of coming to a fan of "X" character and saying "you don't know enough about X, I know more" and not actually backing this with statements from the game. But I guess your aim is to just make a criticism without informing yourself so how could you find error in someone who does the  exact same thing ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .

[Emeraldfern]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Hope is useless against death because everyone eventually dies.

So willpower alone is not a factor to be considerated at all when it comes to illness?
Yes, everyone dies that much is true, but to say that ones mental state of being has no influence whatsoever on the physical state is not correct. At least not from my own life experience.

Emeraldfern wrote...

So, because he is terminally ill he should throw away any concern for Kolyat?

Blueprotoss wrote...

Everyone eventually dies while those two know death on a personal basis.

So, Kolyat would be fine losing his dad after he already lost his mother? Really?
Kolyat certainly didn't fully accept Irikah's death did he?
And knowing death on a personal basis makes one more accepting of it?
Huh?

Emeraldfern wrote... 

Since when does Kolyat state he is at peace with Thane's fate?

Blueprotoss wrote...

I see missed you missed all the dialogue in Thane's last conversation in ME3.

Since when does Kolyat state he is at peace with Thane's fate?

The "I don't think it will be long" line from Kolyat isn't a dead-ringer for his own acceptance nor is the explaination of the prayer.

Emeraldfern wrote... 

And I never saw my Shepard accepting anything about Thane's death, infact she barely said anything or reacted to it. Whereas in ME2, she had all kinds of things to say in regards as to what Thane could do while living.

Blueprotoss wrote...

That means your Shepard wasn't friendly enough with him either as a comrade or a partner.

Er, they certainly are friendly enough to discuss what they; Thane and Shepard, should do once the collector business is over?
And where was the part where Shepard encourages Thane to be at peace with dying? I certainly didn't see that one.

Blueprotoss wrote...

I see a flawed character on a journey of redemption based on his previous bad deeds.

And I see a man carrying a tragical past, who goes from self-imposed isolation to believing in life.
Agree to disagree then?

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 15 juillet 2012 - 03:28 .

[Renmiri1]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Kolyat said Thane saved the councilor. He didn't say anything along the lines of, "I'm totally okay with the fact that my dad is dying."

Yet he doesn't need to use that phrase to except his father's death.

Perhaps not to Except but to Accept...

Grammar aside, you have not cited a single line in game to back your head canon so until you do, you might as well be talking about Dora the Explorer and her monkey Boots for all the sense you make.

[Bluecansam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Kolyat said Thane saved the councilor. He didn't say anything along the lines of, "I'm totally okay with the fact that my dad is dying."

Yet he doesn't need to use that phrase to except his father's death.

What phrase DOES he use, then?

[Renmiri1]

Bluecansam wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Bluecansam wrote...

Kolyat said Thane saved the councilor. He didn't say anything along the lines of, "I'm totally okay with the fact that my dad is dying."

Yet he doesn't need to use that phrase to except his father's death.

What phrase DOES he use, then?

** Crickets **

Yeah Mr Thane connaisseur, what line in game is said by Kolyat ? The voices in your head don't count

[Bluecansam]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Hmmm....

First, the main story would have to be changed, and quite drastically, too.  Thane did NOT die of Kepral's Syndrome, nor did he die from the stab wound.  Thane died because Leng needed to defeat Shepard on Thessia, then face Shepard again on Chronos Station. Leng is N7 blahblahblah.....

I don't think the main plot would have to change too drastically. I mean, it should, but because KL is a terrible character, but not be ause of saving Thane. Thane doesn't have to die for KL to plot armor defeat Shepard. Adds insult to injury, but it doesn't really add anything. This is evidenced by the fact that Shepard goes to Thessia and gets defeated whether Thane dies, Kirrahe dies, or the councilor dies. Thane's death just isn't necessary.

I think that Thane should have killed Kai Leng, then died from his injuries.  Then some memorial on the Normandy where Liara, VS (if alive AND allowed back on the Normandy), Joker, Garrus (if alive), Vega, and Shepard standing at the memorial, and Shepard places Thane's placard on the Memorial (with tears if romanced).  

I might've actually been okay with his death if it happened this way. That's how any LI death should have been handled.

[Bluecansam]

Pitznik wrote...
How about coherent story then, is that a good thing?

Thane's story was about dying man making peace with himself and his son before death, or in case of romance, about finding new reason to live despite the terminal illness. If it would be a story about desperately fighting his illness, it could end with curing or with death, both would be fitting. But it was not.

In ME2 his story was about making peace with himself and his son or, in the case of romance, finding a new reason to live. But once that has been achieved, what then? Wouldn't the logical progression of his story in ME3 be for him to want to fight his disease, once a relationship with his son and Shepard was built? I don't see how this wouldn't make for a coherent story. On the contrary, I find Thane in ME3 to be very incoherent to his established story in ME2.

@mythlover20 - but that means only that the illness was badly shown ingame, doesn't change the purpose of the character and his story. If you're right (and I assume you are), it should only change what he tells us about his condition, and not his fate.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but the faulty presentation of his illness does have the potential to change Thane's fate. It's made clear by the doctor outside Thane's room that he's dying of complications from Kepral's. His injuries from fighting Kai Leng complicated things, sure, but the doctors patched him up. Kolyat came to donate blood, and Shepard could have gotten some, if need be. Thane died because he was "in the final stages" of Kepral's Syndrome, which - given a correct presentation of his disease - should have been avoidable for at least a few years.

[Serenade22]

First of all,
@bluecansam, you did a wonderful essay. I agree with you in every word, good job.

Now, I want to give my thanks, to all the people who really listen to us, people who read our reasons, and talk to us respectfully. Some agree, some disagree, but they treat us nice. And some of them, even start supporting us when they understand why are we so upset about Thane's treatment in ME3.

But this message is not for them. I'm posting this, because of other kind of people. Yes, you know who you are. People who attack us repeatedly, exposing the same arguments over and over. People who don't read the first post. People who ignore our reasons, and think they know how we should play or feel, because, of course, theirs is the only valid truth.

I'm not going to talk about Thane's death. I'm not going to talk about the romance. I'm not going to talk about the story arc. Some of my dear thanemancers already did. I only want one thing. I want these people to answer me a simple question.

Why this bothers you so much? We are asking for a CHOICE. A OPTION in our playtroughs. If you don't agree, if you don't want to change anything, then DON'T USE IT. Why you continue quoting us and trying us to stop in our campaign? Why do you keep posting here, and in the other Thane threads? Why bothers you if another people, in their homes, with their games, make a diferent decision?.

I've been wating for 4 months to someone who answer me this question, with a valid reason. Because now I truly want to understand why people gets so angry when we ask for an OPTION.

But usually, all the conversations are like this:

- Random-Thanemancer: I want to save Thane. He is the only LI with a forced death.
- Random-BSN-User: You knew he was dying
- Random-Thanemancer: Yes, I knew, but Bioware gave me hope: (insert here long explanations of lung transplant, hanar medigel, eupulmos device, cure thane campaign supported by Bioware, etc). Also, Thane acts like if I never romanced him, my Shep says she is there for Kaidan, no one remembers him, there is not romance achievement, same scenes for romanced and not romanced, etc, etc.
- Random-BSN-User: *Ignores all the explanations* Thane's story is very well done, he died like hero.
- Random-Thanemancer: Did you read my reasons? I'ts not only his death.
- Random-BSN-User: I didn't romance him, and I never talked with him, but I'm sure you are wrong. I don't want you to change my game, my super-epic death of a character I never cared about!!!
- Random-Thanemancer: But we don't want to change YOUR game, we want a OPTION to save him in our playtroughs, only for romanced or loyal. And if you don't like the new option, don't use it and your game will be the same.
- Random-BSN-User: Save him? But... You knew he was dying!!!
- Random-Thanemancer: Really? Again?!
- Random-BSN-User: Errr... Thane is boring, no one cares about him anyway. He is dead so deal with it.
- Random-Thanemancer: *facepalm*.


The funny thing is, a lot of people try to convince us saying this is a war game, not the sims. But then you can see them crying and asking a Liara DLC with blue babies. You know what? I don't like Liara. I don't care about Liara. If Bioware makes a DLC with blue children, I will not play it. But I don't go to Liara threads, to attack them, and say them I think is a stupid idea. Because they can ask what they want!!! Do you want a Liara DLC? Then ask for it!!! Why should I try to stop you, if is not going to afect my game? Why do you try to stop us, if our choices are not going to affect your game, then? You are beyond selfish.

You still disagree with us? Ok, tell us, discuss with us if you want, but stop quoting and quoting saying the same things over and over again, while ignoring our explanations, only trying to make us look like “crazy fangirls”. You live in your own world, and you need to stop and think for a moment, that these people you are attacking, are real people, with problems, people who has suffered death and loss, people who is spending a lot of time and money in this campaign, people who is writing medical essays and defending themselves in the forum in a foreign language.... only trying to help to be heard. All this people only want a choice, an option, because our game, our story, is broken. We did not choose the wrong LI. We choose Thane, and we deserve our choices matter.

You are happy with Thane in ME3. Ok, I'm happy for you. You have your choice. Now I want MINE.

Edited. I hate word.

Modifié par Serenade22, 15 juillet 2012 - 04:24 .