1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

RShara wrote...
What does guilt have anything to do with it?  He's AFRAID of dying, and ashamed of being AFRAID.  Guilt doesn't have anything to do with it.

The point being, HE DOES NOT ACCEPT DEATH, HE IS AFRAID OF IT.

Again a person can still feel guilty about deing and at the same time accept death, which soldiers do this all the time.  Its like trying to say that James Bond doesn't throw himself into incrediblely dangerous scenarios becase he deeply fell in love with a woman.

samb wrote...

Wow a quote from the word of god.  

Yet again, BlueProtoss cannot provide any source for his supposed "facts".

Thane can be afraid and still accept death, which that is a fact. 

[Blueprotoss]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Not only is it sexist, it plays into some awful stereotypes.

I don't think a lot of the SS romances are there for gay women. They're there for men. And I think it's awful that Bioware played into that.

But giving you ladies the shaft with Thane? Ridiculous. I would have thought he could have been saved. I guess not. I'd have loved to have him back on the crew.

Sexism being present is just another straw-mann especially when its easy to throw out without evidence.   Also many different cultures have different definitions of what sexism is.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh definitely!

MaleShep does not have to apologize for getting a romance in ME2, FemShep has to apologize "for cheating on Kaidan" TWICE. Then FemShep gets cheated on.. and she has no option to punch the SOB Jacob, she has to grovel for a kiss. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/sick.png[/smilie]

PS: Thanks for the support [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

Hopefully you didn't forget that if you cheat as a Male Shepard then you'll have to apologize just as much as a FemShep. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 22 août 2012 - 03:06 .

[Blueprotoss]

CastonFolarus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
The choice is up to Bioware not up to a small group of fans.

Blueprotoss, where has anyone in this thread said anything different? We all know that it's Bioware's choice. It's their game, it's their right. But Bioware made their choice, and the people in this thread DISAGREE. So they made a thread to present their arguement. Constantly saying that the fact that Bioware portrayed Thane in ME3 as they did proves this thread's arguement wrong is not adressing the debate one one iota. Hell, it's not even presenting on opinion on the OP at all. If you're going to take part in the discussion here, you're goign to have to adress the arguments presented, not simply say that since it was Bioware's choice, they were automatically right.

I mean, the people in this thread say "We believe that Bioware's portrayal of Thane in ME3 was incorrect.". Saying "Thane's portrayal in ME3 proves that you're wrong." isn't adressing the original agruement. All it is doing is contradicting, without any actual debate. If someone doesn't accept that Thane's portrayal in ME3 was correct, then they will not accept that same portrayal as evidence that they are wrong.

Course, the chances of either side here convincing the other in this debate are about as small as ME2's Jacob cheating on Shepard. If you can't convince a group of your arguments, then the most polite thing to do is simply to agree to disagree, and move along. Or at least provide some new argument, which can then be taken under consideration.
 
But something tells me you already know this, but are choosing to not do so. You know, I don't often pull out the 'T'-word, as I feel that it is too often used by people when they simply disagree with somebody online. And if you truly are not a 'T'-word, then I apologize in advance. But given how often you continue to provide the same exact arguements, which you know haven't worked before, and you can plainly see simply rile people up without particularily good reason, and don't even serve as good debate fodder, I hereby dub your behavior in this particular thread as trollish.

Have a nice day

The irony here is that its still up to Bioware while to change Thane is to rewrite his character and the general lore of ME.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Protoss it has been established in many other threads that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I suggest improving those.

[Taboo]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Sexism being present is just another straw-mann especially when its easy to throw out without evidence.   Also many different cultures have different definitions of what sexism is.

It is patently unfair that a female character cannot have the same opportunities that a man can. And a great majority of her LIs are female or the equivalent. That plays into stereotypes about LGBT characters.

If you truly want to have this debate I would suggest bringing some ammunition.

[GreyLycanTrope]

he won't he'll claim the burden of proof is on you, if you provide any he's say it's not evidence.

[RShara]

Blueprotoss wrote...

RShara wrote...
What does guilt have anything to do with it?  He's AFRAID of dying, and ashamed of being AFRAID.  Guilt doesn't have anything to do with it.

The point being, HE DOES NOT ACCEPT DEATH, HE IS AFRAID OF IT.

Again a person can still feel guilty about deing and at the same time accept death, which soldiers do this all the time.  Its like trying to say that James Bond doesn't throw himself into incrediblely dangerous scenarios becase he deeply fell in love with a woman.

samb wrote...

Wow a quote from the word of god.  

Yet again, BlueProtoss cannot provide any source for his supposed "facts".

Thane can be afraid and still accept death, which that is a fact. 

Again, guilt has nothing to do with this.  Being afraid of death and being accepting of death are two separate things.

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Protoss it has been established in many other threads that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I suggest improving those.

Insuting people still isn't helping you.

Greylycantrope wrote...

he won't he'll claim the burden of proof is on you, if you provide any he's say it's not evidence.

Yet all of this "evidence" thats going around is this topic is headcanon, which is opinion not fact.  

[Blueprotoss]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Sexism being present is just another straw-mann especially when its easy to throw out without evidence.   Also many different cultures have different definitions of what sexism is.

It is patently unfair that a female character cannot have the same opportunities that a man can. And a great majority of her LIs are female or the equivalent. That plays into stereotypes about LGBT characters.

If you truly want to have this debate I would suggest bringing some ammunition.

To be fair men and women aren't created equal and treated equally.  Life isn't fair or equal based on nature itself, which I'm hoping you don't want to go against genetics.

[Blueprotoss]

RShara wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

RShara wrote...
What does guilt have anything to do with it?  He's AFRAID of dying, and ashamed of being AFRAID.  Guilt doesn't have anything to do with it.

The point being, HE DOES NOT ACCEPT DEATH, HE IS AFRAID OF IT.

Again a person can still feel guilty about deing and at the same time accept death, which soldiers do this all the time.  Its like trying to say that James Bond doesn't throw himself into incrediblely dangerous scenarios becase he deeply fell in love with a woman.

samb wrote...

Wow a quote from the word of god.  

Yet again, BlueProtoss cannot provide any source for his supposed "facts".

Thane can be afraid and still accept death, which that is a fact. 

Again, guilt has nothing to do with this.  Being afraid of death and being accepting of death are two separate things.

Thane's fear is based on guilt while thats based around what will happen to his loved ones when he dies not that he's dieing.

[Taboo]

Blueprotoss wrote...
To be fair men and women aren't created equal and treated equally.  Life isn't fair or equal based on nature itself, which I'm hoping you don't want to go against genetics.

Are you debating science now? Women are just as capable as men. That has been shown. In fact, it's been shown that giving women the resources to build in a third world country they will get better results than men. Why? Because they are more compotent in that area.

Women are different than men, but they are no less equal.

[Renmiri1]

lol maybe BlueProtoss can handle pictures, since reading is not his strong point

[GreyLycanTrope]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Protoss it has been established in many other threads that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I suggest improving those.

Insuting people still isn't helping you.

Greylycantrope wrote...

he won't he'll claim the burden of proof is on you, if you provide any he's say it's not evidence.

Yet all of this "evidence" thats going around is this topic is headcanon, which is opinion not fact.  

I see you don't like facts

[Taboo]

That is so awful what they did to you guys. That picture...damn.

But in jest, there is only one LI up there for my Shepard.

THAT is a fact.

[RShara]

Try reading the highlighted bits again. Thane's fear is based on NOT WANTING TO DIE, not on guilt. He is ASHAMED OF BEING AFRAID TO DIE.

There is NO guilt here whatsoever.

[Twilight_Princess]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That is so awful what they did to you guys. That picture...damn.

But in jest, there is only one LI up there for my Shepard.

THAT is a fact.

Which brings up a good point. For lots of people they really did have that "one LI" the only character they would romance with their shepards. Before ME3 no one thought they were gambling by picking a romance since they were presented as equal choices.  That’s why people felt “safe” to pair up all ten of their shepards with the same person. If someone REALLY thought they were going to get a poor continuation of their romance why would they do this?
 
So I can’t help but laugh, for example, when some people (with hindsight of course) say that it was OBVIOUS Jacob was totally going to cheat on you during ME2. Right, you mean back when people were so sure the garrus romance was “just a fling”? Look how HIS romance turned out compared to Jacob’s.  

The fact is there was no “wrong choice” when you picked romances in 1 and 2 , this is a new thing ME3 introduced and it sucks. Telling the disappointed fans to just “pick someone else” isn’t an option for some, since to them their badly treated romance WAS their canon.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 22 août 2012 - 05:14 .

[DineBoo]

@Hyrule_Gal: So true! I've said before, since when did fans have to be clairvoyant in order to know which of their LIs were "true" romances or just flings? Nobody in ME1 or 2 were flings except for the Consort. And despite what BW says, it's obvious who their canon was.

And even then, why does this only apply to femShep? Is she the only one who can be cheated on or experience the death of a lover, but broShep is the manly hero everyone waits for?

It's appareling since all the romances in ME1/2 were equal. I remember how Garrus fans (myself included) wanted it to be more than a fling and wanted more than a headbutt. So I can only imagine how Thane and Jacob fans feel.

If they were going by popularity (and it seems like this only applies to femShep) I guess I should have did Jacob and Thane's romances to get the numbers up. But the thing was, depending on how Jacob/Thane was treated in ME3, I was looking forward to going back and romancing them so I could have some variety in my playthroughs. No such chance now.

ETA:

Telling the disappointed fans to just “pick someone else” isn’t an
option for some, since to them their badly treated romance WAS their
canon.

This is especially true for players who played femShep straight and killed of Kaidan. If they chose Thane or Jacob, there's no recourse for them since Garrus must be an imported romance. All that's left for them in the game was to be a lesbian.

How could you choose someone else if your femShep was straight? So players must be clairvoyant again to insure Kaidan was alive in their playthroughs so they could have one(!) straight option.

Modifié par DineBoo, 22 août 2012 - 05:43 .

[Twilight_Princess]

DineBoo wrote...

 I remember how Garrus fans (myself included) wanted it to be more than a fling and wanted more than a headbutt. So I can only imagine how Thane and Jacob fans feel.

Exactly . As a garrusmancer I clearly  remember having to defend the romance because we kept getting told over and over "it was just a hook up" "garrus doesn't even like shep in that way" "it doesn't really count as a romance". The fandom forgets this now since Garrus got one of the best romances in ME3 but a LOT of people didn't believe it would go anywhere or amount to much (not compared to the other romances).

Now that Garrus got the romance he deserved I'm defending Thane's romance because his went the opposite direction (started out really deep and meaningful but became shallow in ME3).  The quality should have gotten BETTER not worse!

*edit*

btw "clairvoyant" love that word dineboo, I shall be using that as my word of the day

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 22 août 2012 - 06:03 .

[Blueprotoss]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
To be fair men and women aren't created equal and treated equally.  Life isn't fair or equal based on nature itself, which I'm hoping you don't want to go against genetics.

Are you debating science now? Women are just as capable as men. That has been shown. In fact, it's been shown that giving women the resources to build in a third world country they will get better results than men. Why? Because they are more compotent in that area.

Women are different than men, but they are no less equal.

I'm not debating science here while no matter what you do men and women are different.

[Blueprotoss]

Renmiri1 wrote...

lol maybe BlueProtoss can handle pictures, since reading is not his strong point

If you did like the facts then you would know that Thane wasn't scrapped in ME3 while a romance without a love scene is still romance even when Paramour doesn't pop up.  If you actually want to talk about scrapped LIs then you should be talking about Samara, Mordin, and Vega then.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 22 août 2012 - 06:19 .

[Blueprotoss]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Protoss it has been established in many other threads that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, I suggest improving those.

Insuting people still isn't helping you.

Greylycantrope wrote...

he won't he'll claim the burden of proof is on you, if you provide any he's say it's not evidence.

Yet all of this "evidence" thats going around is this topic is headcanon, which is opinion not fact.  

I see you don't like facts

If thats the case then why do resort to insults when you try to use opinion as fact.

[Blueprotoss]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

That is so awful what they did to you guys. That picture...damn.

But in jest, there is only one LI up there for my Shepard.

THAT is a fact.

Which brings up a good point. For lots of people they really did have that "one LI" the only character they would romance with their shepards. Before ME3 no one thought they were gambling by picking a romance since they were presented as equal choices.  That’s why people felt “safe” to pair up all ten of their shepards with the same person. If someone REALLY thought they were going to get a poor continuation of their romance why would they do this?
 
So I can’t help but laugh, for example, when some people (with hindsight of course) say that it was OBVIOUS Jacob was totally going to cheat on you during ME2. Right, you mean back when people were so sure the garrus romance was “just a fling”? Look how HIS romance turned out compared to Jacob’s.  

The fact is there was no “wrong choice” when you picked romances in 1 and 2 , this is a new thing ME3 introduced and it sucks. Telling the disappointed fans to just “pick someone else” isn’t an option for some, since to them their badly treated romance WAS their canon.

Whatever you choice as a LI is opinion while the confict happens in ME3 because you can have seperate romances in ME1 and ME2 then you get to see the fallout in ME3.  If Garrus was a fling then his character would have been written differently in ME2 from ME1 to show that and plus he was in all 3 if you didn't kill him in ME2.  Jacob is a different because he's a ME2 character and you get more of his background then some of the other LIs.  Either way all LIs aren't created equal in this and in all RPGs whether you play as a male or female.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 22 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[Vlk3]

DineBoo wrote...

Telling the disappointed fans to just “pick someone else” isn’t an
option for some, since to them their badly treated romance WAS their
canon.

This is especially true for players who played femShep straight and killed of Kaidan. If they chose Thane or Jacob, there's no recourse for them since Garrus must be an imported romance. All that's left for them in the game was to be a lesbian.

How could you choose someone else if your femShep was straight? So players must be clairvoyant again to insure Kaidan was alive in their playthroughs so they could have one(!) straight option.

Actually, for me it doesn't matter if I have another straight option after Thane's death or not. My canon Shep was only for him and it really would be out of character for her to jump into another romance right after Thane died. I am not interested in another male LI in ME3.
After my first playthrough I started my main Shep again from ME1 and instead of Ashley, I left Kaidan on Virmire, because I couldn't stand autodialog when my Shep met Thane in hospital. Also, going through ME3 with another Shep (renegade) I completely ignored Vega, because I didn't want my Shep to start flirting with him.

Thane is a central character for my main Sheps stories so I can't and I won't ever make them romance anyone else.

PS. Blueprotoss, really? Still sharing your wisdom with us? How sweet...

Modifié par Vlk3, 22 août 2012 - 06:28 .

[Blueprotoss]

Vlk3 wrote...

DineBoo wrote...

Telling the disappointed fans to just “pick someone else” isn’t an
option for some, since to them their badly treated romance WAS their
canon.

This is especially true for players who played femShep straight and killed of Kaidan. If they chose Thane or Jacob, there's no recourse for them since Garrus must be an imported romance. All that's left for them in the game was to be a lesbian.

How could you choose someone else if your femShep was straight? So players must be clairvoyant again to insure Kaidan was alive in their playthroughs so they could have one(!) straight option.

Actually, for me it doesn't matter if I have another straight option after Thane's death or not. My canon Shep was only for him and it really would be out of character for her to jump into another romance right after Thane died. I am not interested in another male LI in ME3.
After my first playthrough I started my main Shep again from ME1 and instead of Ashley, I left Kaidan on Virmire, because I couldn't stand autodialog when my Shep met Thane in hospital. Also, going through ME3 with another Shep (renegade) I completely ignored Vega, because I didn't want my Shep to start flirting with him.

Thane is a central character for my main Sheps stories so I can't and I won't ever make them romance anyone else.

But thats the beauty of LIs because you have that freedom of choice.  I guess I'm one of the few here that sees that.

[Vlk3]

What freedom of choice? I wasn't given ANY choice regarding romance in ME3.

Oh wait.. I could choose Liara, Traynor or Allers and forget Thane

Great choice, really.