1198 réponses à ce sujet

[RShara]

Kogia, the thing is, we are asking for a choice in the matter. You don't have to save him if you think that his character arc is better with him dying. For those of us who don't agree....for very valid reasons....we would like a different option.

Also, being utterly forgotten, and thrown away like he was is what truly cheapens Thane's character.

Modifié par RShara, 26 août 2012 - 09:34 .

[samb]

One of the main points of the original post was to debunk the idea tha Thane living would trivialize his life. Mainly that thane was just marginalized to begin with, his death didn't strike the narrative chord it was supposed to. It would be different if Thane was cured, looked forward to supporting Shepard, had some conversation with the crew, etc. then him dying would really mean something.
But what happened instead? Thane dies and no one cares. Garrus is looking at Thanes name plate on the Normandy and says he's glad they didn't have to add anyone's name on the wall, and Shepard doesn't even correct him!!! How was I supposed to feel like that was a good death? Mordin and Liegon's deaths were acknowledged but Thane? Who was that guy again?

[Nube9]

The sad truth is that for everyone that didn't romance Thane his death makes more sense. But for those of us that did his entire arc in ME3 felt like a slap in the face. Especially for us female ME fans who's game got shafted in 3. ( straight femsheps only get two romance options, one of them can die since ME1(Kaidan), the other you can't romance in 3 if you didn't romance him in 2 (Garrus)

If you didn't romance Thane you can watch this five minute youtube fan video that meshes Shep's and Thane's romance dialogue to dramatic music, and get an idea of why ME3 Thane makes no sense.
Link

Modifié par Nube9, 26 août 2012 - 12:02 .

[Kogia]

As this was supposed to be a game about choices, I definitely agree more options as to what actually happens in the story would have been better. Even though I disagree with the need for everyone to live, especially Thane, he felt like a tragic character right from the start for me. I'm surprised people romanced him and didn't forsee tragedy on the horizon. It's kind of what made him so special.

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. So if some choices you made earlier in the game led to keeping Thane alive, I would like those decisions to reduce or even close other crew members chances of survival, effectively some of them need to die, but I'm with you in that it doesn't have to be Thane. However I wouldn't like to have actual decisions of, 'save Thane or Vega' that would be too simplistic and convenient. The greatest part of ME is the characters, they draw you in, even in spite of terribly cheesey Shep dialogue, you fall for the cast and that shows by how much people care for the story, but that shouldn’t mean we all get everything we want at every stage, there needs to be tough choices in a game like this.

I think if some of you are honest with yourselves, you're more just upset that a character you really fell for died (which does at least suggest the writers did a good job of making him a likeable character) and so you're trying to justify your 'grief' by suggesting it didn't fit or wasn't suitable. I'm not saying this nastily, it's nice to feel strongly about characters in games, but his death didn’t feel out of place, maybe the response did, but that’s more about lack of aftercare rather than an error with the event itself.

I do definitely agree that his death should have been mentioned more and reflected on, especially as he was a romance option, which elevated him into more significance than many of the cast. I felt the same about all the romance, there should be more personal dialogue throughout the game after moving moments (deaths, love, etc).

I would suggest never watching Chinese movies, in those everyone always dies tragically and often without warning or ‘reason’, they're like the entire opposite of American films where everyone always has to live happily ever after. Personally I like both, but would like both to find a balance.

[DineBoo]

@Kogia: Speaking for a non Thane romancer, it's not that Thane died. I even expected for him to die. It killed it for me was:

-How he died
-How early in the game he died
-How no one acknowledged his death
-How the game sics other LIs on you as soon as the coup is over. Especially the lesbian LIs

Breaking it down, I wouldn't expect Thane to die protecting the Salarian Council member. Hanar ambassador? Sure. Koylat? Sure. Shephard him/herself. Yep.

But the Salarian? It doesn't even make sense at that point. At that section of the game you already know Udina betrayed the council. So you don't need the information from the Salarian. If they wanted to make sense, they could have had an Hanar ambassador learn the information and trying to bring it before the council.

Also, Thane dies way to early in the game. And has only one convo before he dies. At least with Mordin you have a few missions to talk to him (with different subjects) before he died. With Thane, it's only about how he's dieing and about the VS. I did not want talk about the VS with Thane. I wanted to talk about him.

Why couldn't they have different subjects to talk to Thane about when you went to visit the VS? Seeing him sit in the chair by himself was maddening.

The ninja fight was stupid. No one else could take a shot? And then Shepard coldly just leaves Thane there with hardly no concern?

Then after Thane dies, no one talks about his death. No talks about the "heroic" (lol yeah right) sacrifice protecting the council on the ship. Garrus stands there saying it's nice no one was added to the memorial wall if the VS wasn't killed yet you see Thane's name right there! There's no grief from a romanced Shepard, and no one comes to comfort her.

And to add further insult to injury, you're jumped on by lesbians (and Kaidan later if you kept him alive).

So I understand why his die hard fans are mad. If this happened to Garrus, I'd be ticked too.

And the Chinese movie point is moot. I love Chinese movies. Some are tragic in a good way. Thane's death was not a good kind of tragic. It was stupid and insulting.

And what's really driving this home for me is playing a game for science with Jacob and Thane dead, and there's no part of the game impacted or majorly changed with their deaths. Sure you lose war assets. But that's it.

[LanceSolous13]

On top of that, if this was the final result, Why is Thane an LI? He's my favorite LI of the Fem!Shepard options. But, with this jumbled mess, Why is he an LI? At all?

And, for the record, That's exactly what I did with Thane in my fix-fic. He sacrafices himself to pull Shepard to safety.

[samb]

 No, it isn't just about a character we like dying. It was how Thane died and how his brief time on screen was handled. Most of us don't have a problem with Mordin dying because he played a crucial role, his motivations were fleshed out, his death was talked about and honored. 
Mall of that was denied to Thane.  He got a dozen lines of dialogue, killed in a stupid and honestly meaning way. Like Blue said "you can't trivialize what is already trivial". Leigon and Mordin played central roles in the plot, we got to know them better and their sacrifices acknowledged. Not so much for Thane. 

[LanceSolous13]

That's what I meant.

I mean, Thane dying for Shepard could be a great plot point and have conversations with like Garrus or Joker about it or something. Then, the final nightmare has Thane instead or something. It could have been well developed through death.

But, it isn't,

[RShara]

If we want to go for realism and tragedy, then one of the LI for maleShep should have died too. For instance, Tali should really have died from taking off her suit back in ME2. Low-immune-system + sudden exposure to massive bacteria and viruses = not good!

[Roxy]

What I'm upset about or most of us who have romanced Thane is that we don't get an option to save him...period! All of Male shepard's LI's get that option we don't....how he dies is stupid and horrible along with everybody not giving a damn that Femshep just lost her boyfriend and every lesbian wanting to hump Shep's leg right after and not only that but if you kept Kaiden alive he comes after shep also and he's the only hetero option for femshep...but why the hell would shep want to jump into bed with Kaiden right after she lost her loved one...I sure as hell wouldn't ..unless your femshep is a you-know-what!

What I also don't like is how nobody remembers Thane after he dies...and shep is cool with that and also she gets a email from Kai lame where he boasts about killing her love....what a slap...no it feels more like an effing punch in the face to those of us who romanced Thane...who loved his character! We didn't pick him just because he was dying...there is more to Thane than just his disease and there was a way to cure him BW! They just took the easy route and killed him off without even thinking!

In ME2 Thane said he is afraid to die because he has a reason to live femshep and his son...even if you didn't romance him,you're just his friend and you gained his loyalty he changes,he's more positive he has a chance to make things better between him and his son, he's made a friend (shepard)...I don't think he's still looking for a death wish by the time SM comes.....so why not have an option to save our shep's LI or friend...everybody else did except Legion,even Mordin has an option to live!

And since we are on the topic of Mordin and Legion...it would have been awesome if Legion had a chance to live but I get why he died he sacrificed himself for his people...it makes me cry cause I love Legion but what he did was meaningful and so was Mordin's death,he sacrificed himself to cure the Krogan!
Thanes was meaningless....I mean what just to save one counciler? And not only that but if you don't talk to thane major kirrahe takes his place...so the counciler get's 2 chances of survival ,Kirrahe get's one...no 2 chances to live cause if you don't talk to kirrahe he won't be there to save the counciler and for Thane.....not one effing chance...none...zilch...nada! And he dies anyway off screen if you don't talk to him...pathetic Bioware real pathetic...and low!

In ME3 you don't even recognise the Thane we got to know in ME2...he's all **it's and giggles about dieing and that's all we get to talk about with him *double take* WHAT? This Hepler that you hired didn't know squat about Thane and probably didn't do his homework! Oh and I don't buy that "We forgot he was an LI" ! He was on your trailers,posters and FRONT COVER of ME 2!!!

And like Lance said why is he an LI in the first place? I don't think his death was written in stone at the beginning but I'm starting to wonder did you make him an LI to lure us female fans in to just screw us over? Just curious......

Modifié par Roxy, 27 août 2012 - 12:24 .

[LanceSolous13]

Someone need to bug Bioware on Twitter about that.

"Why is Thane an LI in ME2 if he isn't in ME3?"

[wildannie]

Kogia wrote...

As this was supposed to be a game about choices, I definitely agree more options as to what actually happens in the story would have been better. Even though I disagree with the need for everyone to live, especially Thane, he felt like a tragic character right from the start for me. I'm surprised people romanced him and didn't forsee tragedy on the horizon. It's kind of what made him so special.

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. So if some choices you made earlier in the game led to keeping Thane alive, I would like those decisions to reduce or even close other crew members chances of survival, effectively some of them need to die, but I'm with you in that it doesn't have to be Thane. However I wouldn't like to have actual decisions of, 'save Thane or Vega' that would be too simplistic and convenient. The greatest part of ME is the characters, they draw you in, even in spite of terribly cheesey Shep dialogue, you fall for the cast and that shows by how much people care for the story, but that shouldn’t mean we all get everything we want at every stage, there needs to be tough choices in a game like this.

I think if some of you are honest with yourselves, you're more just upset that a character you really fell for died (which does at least suggest the writers did a good job of making him a likeable character) and so you're trying to justify your 'grief' by suggesting it didn't fit or wasn't suitable. I'm not saying this nastily, it's nice to feel strongly about characters in games, but his death didn’t feel out of place, maybe the response did, but that’s more about lack of aftercare rather than an error with the event itself.

I do definitely agree that his death should have been mentioned more and reflected on, especially as he was a romance option, which elevated him into more significance than many of the cast. I felt the same about all the romance, there should be more personal dialogue throughout the game after moving moments (deaths, love, etc).

I would suggest never watching Chinese movies, in those everyone always dies tragically and often without warning or ‘reason’, they're like the entire opposite of American films where everyone always has to live happily ever after. Personally I like both, but would like both to find a balance.

Condescending much??

No, Thane's romance was ruined in every way in ME3, it was unrecognisable and those who cared and had been paying attention KNOW this for a fact.  We're not arguing that for a friend shep his outcome can work (for some) but many still notice that he's out of character and were unhappy with his role.  I don't see any point in going into the details of why you are wrong, I'm sure the OP has all of that covered, I suggest you read it, and if you already have, read it again.

I'm always baffled by people playing the movie card in reference to Mass Effect, It. is. a. game. not. a. movie... think about the difference.  We don't go to a movie expecting to have any agency over the story we go to consume what is given to us. How can you compare that with a game that was sold to us on the understanding that our choices mattered, and that there was no canon?  

I would suggest that you don't assume that because someone thinks Thane Krios role in ME3 sucks that they live in some kind of vacuum where they have never been exposed to films other that those from the USA, there's no logic to that train of thought and again you come off as condescending (and quite ignorant).

Bioware shafted us,  what they did to both Thane and Jacob fans *still* pisses me off immensely because it was so utterly cruel.  ME3 is having its day just now (kind of), but I expect that it will ultimately be remembered as an disappointing/appalling end to the trilogy, they should be ashamed, they let themselves, their fans, and their art down.

[Twilight_Princess]

Roxy wrote...

In ME3 you don't even recognise the Thane we got to know in ME2...he's all **it's and giggles about dieing and that's all we get to talk about with him *double take* WHAT? This Hepler that you hired didn't know squat about Thane and probably did'nt do his homework! Oh and I don't buy that "We forgot he was an LI" ! He was on your trailers,posters and FRONT COVER of ME 2!!!

 I shouldn't laugh but that made me snort. It's so true though! "I had refused to be confined to a bed, gasping horribly as my life beeped away to machinery I had no use for" Uh...whatca doin gasping in a bed then Thane? Finding him COMPLACENT with dying and in a hospital bed for **** sake was too idiotic for words! Did I go back in time? Did Thane get smacked in the head by falling debris? Does he have a twin? Who was that stranger I was talking to because I tell you what, it wasn't Thane Krios.

[o Ventus]

Kogia wrote...

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. 

I wish people would stop saying things like these. Near death experiences are still monumentally weighted, especially for the people having the experiences.

[Roxy]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Roxy wrote...

In ME3 you don't even recognise the Thane we got to know in ME2...he's all **it's and giggles about dieing and that's all we get to talk about with him *double take* WHAT? This Hepler that you hired didn't know squat about Thane and probably did'nt do his homework! Oh and I don't buy that "We forgot he was an LI" ! He was on your trailers,posters and FRONT COVER of ME 2!!!

 I shouldn't laugh but that made me snort. It's so true though! "I had refused to be confined to a bed, gasping horribly as my life beeped away to machinery I had no use for" Uh...whatca doin gasping in a bed then Thane? Finding him COMPLACENT with dying and in a hospital bed for **** sake was too idiotic for words! Did I go back in time? Did Thane get smacked in the head by falling debris? Does he have a twin? Who was that stranger I was talking to because I tell you what, it wasn't Thane Krios.

 Yeah that was definitly not Thane Krios....I think it was what's his name girls? Thane's cousin? Tink Krios...yeah it was Tink Krios lol!

[Emeraldfern]

o Ventus wrote...

Kogia wrote...

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. 

I wish people would stop saying things like these. Near death experiences are still monumentally weighted, especially for the people having the experiences.

^This

Survival as a story does not automatically = sunshine and bunnies, just because that's how it's portrayed more often than not in media, it does not mean that's how the story actually goes.

As a next of kin to a survivor of a stroke, the road back to living a life that was on her terms, was not an easy one, neither for her or those close to her. And, these stories if written right, can be just as poignant and hold just as much gravitas as one dealing with death.

Would I personally love to see a story of poignant survival for Thane? I won't lie, I most certainly would.

Does that mean others would as well? Not necessarily. But that's why a choice, even if it's an obscure, and not to mention difficult one, would be great. After all, since when did having more choice in Mass Effect = bad?

[Bluecansam]

Kogia wrote...

As this was supposed to be a game about choices, I definitely agree more options as to what actually happens in the story would have been better. Even though I disagree with the need for everyone to live, especially Thane, he felt like a tragic character right from the start for me. I'm surprised people romanced him and didn't forsee tragedy on the horizon. It's kind of what made him so special.

A lot of us foresaw possible tragedy for ME3. That doesn't mean that we didn't also see hope. This is especially true because BioWare put hope for a cure/treatment in official media.

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. So if some choices you made earlier in the game led to keeping Thane alive, I would like those decisions to reduce or even close other crew members chances of survival, effectively some of them need to die, but I'm with you in that it doesn't have to be Thane. However I wouldn't like to have actual decisions of, 'save Thane or Vega' that would be too simplistic and convenient. The greatest part of ME is the characters, they draw you in, even in spite of terribly cheesey Shep dialogue, you fall for the cast and that shows by how much people care for the story, but that shouldn’t mean we all get everything we want at every stage, there needs to be tough choices in a game like this.

Isn't it enough that billions of people all over the galaxy are dying? Is that not enough threat? Is that not enough danger? If you argue that Shepard must feel personally threatened, then why wasn't that shown? If Thane's death was meant to show Shepard that even she can't save everybody, then BioWare should have SHOWN that Shepard felt helpless. They should have SHOWN that she grieved for him.

We're not arguing that everyone should have lived. If you look back at our posts, none of us are asking for a game where there is no cost to the war, nothing able to be sacrificed. We are asking for a CHOICE. You say there needs to be tough choices in this game? Yes. CHOICES. We're not saying he should have lived in all playthroughs. We're saying he shouldn't have been forced to die in all playthroughs.

I think if some of you are honest with yourselves, you're more just upset that a character you really fell for died (which does at least suggest the writers did a good job of making him a likeable character) and so you're trying to justify your 'grief' by suggesting it didn't fit or wasn't suitable. I'm not saying this nastily, it's nice to feel strongly about characters in games, but his death didn’t feel out of place, maybe the response did, but that’s more about lack of aftercare rather than an error with the event itself.

No. We're not upset merely because he died. If you read my essay in the OP, I have clear, legitimate reasons why the writing was bad and inappropriate for Thane's character. I'm not justifying anything. Most of us expected him to die. But we also expected BioWare to give him a death fitting of his character, one where he wasn't just a posterboy for his disease, one where he didn't just throw himself at a sword, one where his friends and/or lover actually gave a damn about him dying.

I do definitely agree that his death should have been mentioned more and reflected on, especially as he was a romance option, which elevated him into more significance than many of the cast. I felt the same about all the romance, there should be more personal dialogue throughout the game after moving moments (deaths, love, etc).

Yes, ME3 never seemed to take the time after major events to let it sink in. Always onward to the next big thing, or to more fetch quests...

I would suggest never watching Chinese movies, in those everyone always dies tragically and often without warning or ‘reason’, they're like the entire opposite of American films where everyone always has to live happily ever after. Personally I like both, but would like both to find a balance.

Really? I'm sorry, I know you mean well, but we're not a bunch of fragile flowers who can't take a little sadness in our lives every now and then. If a sudden death has purpose within a story, in that it forwards the plot, causes ripples in the surviving people around them, and provides motivation for key characters, it's good writing. Same goes for every tragic event.

But look at Thane's death. What was it's purpose in the narrative? Thane died because... he was dying. If you argue that his death's purpose was to save the salarian councilor, Kirrahe stands in for that role just as well. And how does the councilor living or dying affect the plot? Not war assets, PLOT. The councilor's living or dying doesn't matter either way within the narrative. If you argue that Thane's death was meant to drive Shepard into vengeance, that possible motivation is negated by the fact that Shepard doesn't appear particularly driven to kill Kai Leng until Thessia. And while she says "That was for Thane, you son of a ****" when she kills him, prior to that line, she gives NO indication that she's given a second thought to Thane since his death.

We're not asking for happily ever after. We're asking for something fitting and worthy of Thane's character.

[Bluecansam]

Too true. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a happy ending. It's not childish. It's natural no matter what age you are.

I think it's also important to point out that just because someone wants a happy ending in THIS part of the game, does NOT mean that he or she wants a happy ending in ALL parts of the game. We all understand that war is not all unicorns and rainbows. But just because someone didn't want Thane to die, doesn't mean he or she wouldn't accept the well-written deaths of - for instance - Mordin or Legion. No one has said that they wanted a game where no one suffered ever. People should really stop accusing us of such.

[mnomaha]

o Ventus wrote...

Kogia wrote...

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. 

I wish people would stop saying things like these. Near death experiences are still monumentally weighted, especially for the people having the experiences.

Okaaaay, first off...childish...did you NOT see the shower scene?

Next...if they quit saying things like this...they will have nothing left to say. I think it's in a handbook somewhere...Dummys guide for Bio.Drones...

Modifié par mnomaha, 30 août 2012 - 07:46 .

[Bluecansam]

People act like Thane's death is the determining factor in whether ME3 is a happy-go-lucky children's fantasy or a gritty sci-fi war epic, but there's any number of other deaths in the game that Shepard obviously cares about. The kid at the beginning, Mordin, Legion, Miranda, Samara, Tali, Jack, EDI, Cortez, Kaidan/Ash, Victus' son, Eve, Anderson, all quarians, all geth... all of these people can or do die throughout the course of the story. I'm probably even forgetting a few. But wanting an OPTION for Thane to live makes us unable to handle sadness or suffering? Wanting a CHOICE to save him means we're living with childish illusions of happy endings? Please.

[o Ventus]

mnomaha wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Kogia wrote...

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. 

I wish people would stop saying things like these. Near death experiences are still monumentally weighted, especially for the people having the experiences.

Okaaaay, first off...childish...did you NOT see the shower scene?

Next...if they quit saying things like this...they will have nothing left to say. I think it's in a handbook somewhere...Dummys guide for Bio.Drones...

Wait, are you supporting what I said or making a case against it?

Your first point gives me the impression of the latter, but your 2nd point gives me the impression of the former.

[coldwetn0se]

o Ventus wrote...

mnomaha wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Kogia wrote...

I do still think deaths are necessary to give this type of story weight, you must see that if everyone lives, where was the threat, where was the danger? It makes the story childish, the youthful idea that everything works out fine in the end just sadly doesn't feel real, death occurs. 

I wish people would stop saying things like these. Near death experiences are still monumentally weighted, especially for the people having the experiences.

Okaaaay, first off...childish...did you NOT see the shower scene?

Next...if they quit saying things like this...they will have nothing left to say. I think it's in a handbook somewhere...Dummys guide for Bio.Drones...

Wait, are you supporting what I said or making a case against it?

Your first point gives me the impression of the latter, but your 2nd point gives me the impression of the former.

Nay...She's agreeing with you , and commenting on the previous posters statement; especially the word "childish" that kogia used.  Then used the Traynor shower scene as an example of one many truly "childish" scenes in me3. 

It's all good.

[LanceSolous13]

Well, this dropped off the face of the earth...

[mythlover20]

Yeah, it sure did. What page was it on? 5 or something?

I guess there's only so many times we can try to argue the same things over and over. I guess even we get tired of it.

But then our Northern American friends are getting ready/getting their kids ready for school today so they won't have been here for long time.