1198 réponses à ce sujet

[Sethicus333]

Well, that makes me slightly less furious about his treatment in ME3. But only slightly.

I liked this essay a lot and I agree wholeheartedly. Literally every other main character (and even minor ones, like Kirrahe) could survive if you made the right choices, except Thane and Legion.

But Legion's death at least meant something. Mordin's meant something. Even Kirrahe's did if he takes Thane's place, because it wasn't a convoluted fight that defied character personalities and behaviors, it was a short, quick sacrifice that saved someone else's life.

[Bluecansam]

Sethicus333 wrote...

Well, that makes me slightly less furious about his treatment in ME3. But only slightly.

I liked this essay a lot and I agree wholeheartedly. Literally every other main character (and even minor ones, like Kirrahe) could survive if you made the right choices, except Thane and Legion.

But Legion's death at least meant something. Mordin's meant something. Even Kirrahe's did if he takes Thane's place, because it wasn't a convoluted fight that defied character personalities and behaviors, it was a short, quick sacrifice that saved someone else's life.

Thanks! Yes, people keep saying things like "Oh, Thane died for what he believed in!" or "Thane's death was so meaningful!" But when pressed to tell me what those beliefs he died for were, or what the meaning behind his death was, the answers are vague, and not really based on what happened in-game. There might have been any number of reasons why Thane's death could have related to his story or had meaning in the game. There were none that actually presented themselves in the game, however.

Legion's death is a good example of the whole thing about being taken on a journey. You get a few different quests that Legion is involved in, and with each one, you get a sense of how hard he's fighting to liberate his people, to give them consciousness and free will. You also get that he's a bit of an old soul, in geth terms, as it is implied that he was the first geth to show self-awareness. For him to live for centuries, to see the heretics join the Reapers, to get them back, only to lose them to the Reapers again for the sake of survival, the player is shown how really rather desperate he is to give his people more than just a will to survive. So when it comes time for him to upload himself into the collective consciousness, it seems necessary for him to die. It's what he's been working towards for all his life. Of course he would choose to sacrifice himself. It was really a rather beautiful bit of character development, and I wish there was more of its like in the rest of the game.

[karushna5]

David7204 wrote...

I skimmed though it. This is crap. You clumsily strung together a bunch of phrases you got off TV Tropes that you clearly don't understand, complained about elements of the game completely irrelevent to this issue, cherry picked whatever elements of science and medicine you liked while disregarding any that you didn't, and used 'realism' as a catch-all word for 'good' that meant whatever you wanted it to mean in the current sentence. 

I liked Thane, I liked his death. I went to the Thane thread said what I liked about it and was told I was not actually a fan of Thane because I liked that I couldn't save him, but you have no arguement sir. You are insulting him without giving a single shred of evidence. You skimmed and claim you know what he is saying? That doesn't work and anyone who can complain about tropes should know that.

Argue his/her points.

As for the poster, you make sense. Once again here I will say what I said elsewhere. I liked not being able to save him because if Shepard could she would and I felt it was best for him to die and the death scene was highly emotional with me. But that is my personal opinion.

Most of your points do make alot of sense and I like it except that him talking about his death is a change of character. Last I saw of him in ME2 he was worried about dying. Shepard if she was with him does NOT tell him to get over it. He is dying and he does talk about Kolyat so family still matters and he was obviously worried about you when Earth was attacked. That was not a bad character move. Thane was scared of death but notice when he does talk about it he is resigned and happy. Not scared. A dying man talks about death but he does so with a will he did not show in 2.

Also for the record I think they didn't make him romanced achievement to be nice. If he was going to die it would be cruel to declare him romanced and then die so you can't do it for anyone else. It wasn't to be cruel.

Modifié par karushna5, 16 juillet 2012 - 04:43 .

[HK-90210]

How does Thane's death not 'mean something', or have nothing to do with his character development? He dies saving a life, doing something good. Something to make up for the sins of his past. He dies(in large part) of wounds inflicted while saving a life, and helping Shepard, and therefore the galaxy.

I still don't agree with making his death unavoidable, but I do think his death, and the fight scene preceding it, were well done. Although the romanced death scene should have had more dialogue. That was a sure mistep there. Give Shepard a chance to lay out her feelings for the man!

And dammit, give us a solopsism with Thane saying "'Be alive with me tonight', she says." Cause, just, damn.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:05 .

[o Ventus]

CastonFolarus wrote...

How does Thane's death not 'mean something', or have nothing to do with his character development? He dies saving a life, doing something good. Something to make up for the sins of his past. He dies(in large part) of wounds inflicted while saving a life, and helping Shepard, and therefore the galaxy.

I still don't agree with making his death unavoidable, but I do think his death, and the fight scene preceding it, were well done. Although the romanced death scene should have had more dialogue. That was a sure mistep there. Give Shepard a chance to lay out her feelings for the man!

And dammit, give us a solopsism with Thane saying "'Be alive with me tonight', she says." Cause, just, damn.

It's not meaningful because Thane was handed the idiot ball at the last minute. He charges an opponent with a sword when he could have very easily just shot him. Never mind that Shepard is standing not 2 feet from Thane and can help, but doesn't.

[HK-90210]

o Ventus wrote...

It's not meaningful because Thane was handed the idiot ball at the last minute. He charges an opponent with a sword when he could have very easily just shot him. Never mind that Shepard is standing not 2 feet from Thane and can help, but doesn't.

Given that Thane had resorted to biotics at the last bit of the first melee, it's more than plasuable that he had run out of bullets by that point. And Thane is an expert at hand-to-hand combat. His instincts are to try to take down his opponent as quickly as possible, going for weak points with precisions and agility. And had he been in peak form, I have no doubt he would have suceeded. But he isn't at peak form, and he knew that. But if he was out of bullets(As I think he would be by that point), his two options are melee or biotics. And given his weakened physical state, bitocs are probably not the smartest plan. So he went with hand-to-hand.

As for Shepard and co helping out, I see two issues. 1. They had to protect the councilor. If they had moved at all, it would have exposed him/her to risk of attack by Leng, thereby negating their main objective. 2. And any shots they fired, or any attempts at joining the fight in hand to hand would have simply been getting in the way. It would just have been putting Thane in more danger, and put the councilor at more risk.

So I'm not seeing Thane getting the idiot ball there. Just my opinion, though.

Edit: Again, wanna stress, I still think an option should be provided to save him. I just don't have too much of a problem with the fight scene itself, or the circustances leading up to it. Mostly romance dialogue and the lack of  a saving him option.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:32 .

[o Ventus]

CastonFolarus wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

It's not meaningful because Thane was handed the idiot ball at the last minute. He charges an opponent with a sword when he could have very easily just shot him. Never mind that Shepard is standing not 2 feet from Thane and can help, but doesn't.

Given that Thane had resorted to biotics at the last bit of the first melee, it's more than plasuable that he had run out of bullets by that point. And Thane is an expert at hand-to-hand combat. His instincts are to try to take down his opponent as quickly as possible, going for weak points with precisions and agility. And had he been in peak form, I have no doubt he would have suceeded. But he isn't at peak form, and he knew that. But if he was out of bullets(As I think he would be by that point), his two options are melee or biotics. And given his weakened physical state, bitocs are probably not the smartest plan. So he went with hand-to-hand.

As for Shepard and co helping out, I see two issues. 1. They had to protect the councilor. If they had moved at all, it would have exposed him/her to risk of attack by Leng, thereby negating their main objective. 2. And any shots they fired, or any attempts at joining the fight in hand to hand would have simply been getting in the way. It would just have been putting Thane in more danger, and put the councilor at more risk.

So I'm not seeing Thane getting the idiot ball there. Just my opinion, though.

1. He reloaded. People who are out of ammo don't do that.

2. By the time Thane had engaged Leng, Leng's attention was not focused onto the Councilor. Shepard and co. could easily just shoot, bioti, or tech power him to death.

Thane had the idiot ball there.

[spirosz]

He got ME3'd, as did most of ME2 characters.

[HK-90210]

o Ventus wrote...

1. He reloaded. People who are out of ammo don't do that.

2. By the time Thane had engaged Leng, Leng's attention was not focused onto the Councilor. Shepard and co. could easily just shoot, bioti, or tech power him to death.

Thane had the idiot ball there.

*checks scene on youtube*

Ah, so he did. I stand corrected on the bullets issue.

However, if you look at Shep and co's perspective in the clip, Thane is right in between them and Leng, just like the councilor was before. They can't fire for the same reason as before; it puts the person in between them and Leng at risk. Thane decided to fire his gun as he advances, hoping that would distract Leng enough for him to deliver a more crippling blow. This, IMO, is better than simply firing at Leng, waiting for him to charge. And Leng would charge before Shepard's team could maneuver around for a better vantage while keepign the councilor out of harm's way. I'm not saying that Thane's course of action was the BEST way to go about it, but I'm still not seeing him being overtly stupid about it either.

[spirosz]

Honestly though, I thought the whole scene w/ Kai Leng Mc Cereal, was for dramatic purposes, like Legions death. Could his death been avoided, maybe - especially with the evidence in game about a cure, but I was going in expecting him to pass away. I think the main problem is the lack of dialogue or concern from Shepard, depending on the relationship, obviously - if Thane was Shepard's LI, wouldn't she want to spend more time with him, tour him around the Normandy for one last time, see his old room (which I think was locked up, no?) These little moments could of made it better, IMO.

Modifié par spiros9110, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .

[o Ventus]

CastonFolarus wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. He reloaded. People who are out of ammo don't do that.

2. By the time Thane had engaged Leng, Leng's attention was not focused onto the Councilor. Shepard and co. could easily just shoot, bioti, or tech power him to death.

Thane had the idiot ball there.

*checks scene on youtube*

Ah, so he did. I stand corrected on the bullets issue.

However, if you look at Shep and co's perspective in the clip, Thane is right in between them and Leng, just like the councilor was before. They can't fire for the same reason as before; it puts the person in between them and Leng at risk. Thane decided to fire his gun as he advances, hoping that would distract Leng enough for him to deliver a more crippling blow. This, IMO, is better than simply firing at Leng, waiting for him to charge. And Leng would charge before Shepard's team could maneuver around for a better vantage while keepign the councilor out of harm's way. I'm not saying that Thane's course of action was the BEST way to go about it, but I'm still not seeing him being overtly stupid about it either.

Thane is more than capable of using Throw or Warp, but instead he just Vanguard Heavy Melee's Leng. IIRC, if Kirrahe or Thane arrive, the Councilor ducks after Leng's attention is diverted.

Even if he/she doesn't, Shepard has 2 other squadmates with him. They didn't even need to risk harming the Councilor by shooting at Leng, and even if acciedntal harm comes to pass, it's preferable to dying.

There is NO WAY to rationalize this.

[HK-90210]

o Ventus wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

*checks scene on youtube*

Ah, so he did. I stand corrected on the bullets issue.

However, if you look at Shep and co's perspective in the clip, Thane is right in between them and Leng, just like the councilor was before. They can't fire for the same reason as before; it puts the person in between them and Leng at risk. Thane decided to fire his gun as he advances, hoping that would distract Leng enough for him to deliver a more crippling blow. This, IMO, is better than simply firing at Leng, waiting for him to charge. And Leng would charge before Shepard's team could maneuver around for a better vantage while keepign the councilor out of harm's way. I'm not saying that Thane's course of action was the BEST way to go about it, but I'm still not seeing him being overtly stupid about it either.

Thane is more than capable of using Throw or Warp, but instead he just Vanguard Heavy Melee's Leng. IIRC, if Kirrahe or Thane arrive, the Councilor ducks after Leng's attention is diverted.

Even if he/she doesn't, Shepard has 2 other squadmates with him. They didn't even need to risk harming the Councilor by shooting at Leng, and even if acciedntal harm comes to pass, it's preferable to dying.

There is NO WAY to rationalize this.

I'm not sure he's 'more than capable.'. He says 'running is difficult' just before you meet up. He's a man half-dead from a terminal disease. Biotics require a lot of concentration, control and energy. Alliance Biotics are given nearly double the daily rations just for regular duty. I think that little push he gives Leng a few seconds before was about the best he had. And that was pushing a dazed, immoble target back a few feet.

And why in the the world would Shepard and co fire while the councilor or Thane is in the way? A stray shot can be just as lethal as a shot meant to kill. Why accomplish the assassin's goal for him? He's right behind someone, so it is not a good shot to take.

Sorry, I think there are PLENTY of rationalizations. You and I might just have to agree to disagree here.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:04 .

[o Ventus]

CastonFolarus wrote...

I'm not sure he's 'more than capable.'. He says 'running is difficult' just before you meet up. He's a man half-dead from a terminal disease. Biotics require a lot of concentration, control and energy. Alliance Biotics are given nearly double the daily rations just for regular duty. I think that little push he gives Leng a few seconds before was about the best he had. And that was pushing a dazed, immoble target back a few feet.

And why in the the world would Shepard and co fire while the councilor or Thane is in the way? A stray shot can be just as lethal as a shot meant to kill. Why accomplish the assassin's goal for him? He's right behind someone, so it is not a good shot to take.

Sorry, I think there are PLENTY of rationalizations. You and I might just have to agree to disagree here.

Thane was capable of biotic punching Leng, so he was capable of utilizing at least a small amount of his energy. His own fault for going with a melee attack instead of warping or throwing Leng. It wouldn't even need to be a particularly powerful attack either. Warp shreds armor to pieces and throw is self explanatory.

I DID say that Shepard and co. need not bother shooting at Leng, did I not? Shepard has his powers, as does his squad. And like I said, if it would require harm to the Councilor to save their life, then Thane and Shepard should understand that. I'm not saying to shoot them in the stomach or anything, but a quick shot in the leg to drop them to the ground, then finish Leng while he stands there. Medigel will stop the bleeding.

Notice how mobile Leng and Thane are during their scuffle. Once Thane and Leng had charged at each other, that was the PERFECT opportunity for Shepard or one of his allies to take action.

Even if Leng was able to keep the Councilor in-between himself and Shepard, there's still Thane and Shepard's 2 squadmates to deal with. 

[avenging_teabag]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rombomm wrote...

I read through your entire post, and pretty much your ONLY legitimate argument is that Thane was poorly treated in the writing - one conversation, nobody remembers him.

However, that is not reason enough to let him live. While it should certainly be fixed (though it is highly unlikely that will happen) it was quite clear from the start that this romance would only end in tragedy, and you should have realised that.

Also, Thane didn't "suddenly" enter the final stages of Kepral's syndrome - he'd been in the final stages for months. When you meet him in ME3, he'd already lived a few months past his 'expiration date'... if you get a stab would when you're in the final stages of a condition that shuts down all your organs, you won't be living too much longer.

Generally, you can't get cured of a disease that is in it's final stages, either. That's why everyone is calling it a "miracle cure"

I love it how people who don't pay attention to Thane get to teach us Thane fans "the facts".

1) ME3 retconned Thane's death date. On ME2 he assures Sheppard he will be fit for combat for the next 8-12 months. Tha is not ALIVE, that is healthy enough to kick ass just as much as the rest of the crew. ME3 takes place 6 months after ME2 so it has been barely 8 months he can't be dying as he is on ME3. That sentence about a doctor giving him 3 months to live is pure retcon.

2) Miracle cure on a palce where Genphage gets cured years before a cure should exist ? Where Sheppard gets back from the dead ? I guess green aliens are unable to use space magic in your vision of ME then 

3) No we were told on ME2 that Thane no longer wished to die, we were also told that there were medigel, lung transplants and Hanar research "years away from the cure" (just like genophage). Bioware also posted about cure Thane on twitter and facebook http://twitpic.com/3tck7p


We have proof. You have badly researched misinformed opinions. Care to try again ?

What you and OP have is an unhealthy emotional attachment to a fictional frog-man. Thane's death was completely logical and foreshadowed well in advance. Poor treatment of his storyline is a valid complaint (too little dialogue, the resolution too abrupt), his death itself however, is not. He was introduced and consistently treated as a dead man walking. Get over it.

[LanceSolous13]

There is no reason for Thane to even run at Kai Leng in the first place.

Kai Leng = Melee Attacker.
Sere Thane Krios = Long Range Master Assassin.

Its the same logic of bringing a gun to a knife fight....Except the knife ends up winning for whatever the reason.

[LanceSolous13]

avenging_teabag wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Rombomm wrote...

I read through your entire post, and pretty much your ONLY legitimate argument is that Thane was poorly treated in the writing - one conversation, nobody remembers him.

However, that is not reason enough to let him live. While it should certainly be fixed (though it is highly unlikely that will happen) it was quite clear from the start that this romance would only end in tragedy, and you should have realised that.

Also, Thane didn't "suddenly" enter the final stages of Kepral's syndrome - he'd been in the final stages for months. When you meet him in ME3, he'd already lived a few months past his 'expiration date'... if you get a stab would when you're in the final stages of a condition that shuts down all your organs, you won't be living too much longer.

Generally, you can't get cured of a disease that is in it's final stages, either. That's why everyone is calling it a "miracle cure"

I love it how people who don't pay attention to Thane get to teach us Thane fans "the facts".

1) ME3 retconned Thane's death date. On ME2 he assures Sheppard he will be fit for combat for the next 8-12 months. Tha is not ALIVE, that is healthy enough to kick ass just as much as the rest of the crew. ME3 takes place 6 months after ME2 so it has been barely 8 months he can't be dying as he is on ME3. That sentence about a doctor giving him 3 months to live is pure retcon.

2) Miracle cure on a palce where Genphage gets cured years before a cure should exist ? Where Sheppard gets back from the dead ? I guess green aliens are unable to use space magic in your vision of ME then 

3) No we were told on ME2 that Thane no longer wished to die, we were also told that there were medigel, lung transplants and Hanar research "years away from the cure" (just like genophage). Bioware also posted about cure Thane on twitter and facebook http://twitpic.com/3tck7p


We have proof. You have badly researched misinformed opinions. Care to try again ?

What you and OP have is an unhealthy emotional attachment to a fictional frog-man. Thane's death was completely logical and foreshadowed well in advance. Poor treatment of his storyline is a valid complaint (too little dialogue, the resolution too abrupt), his death itself however, is not. He was introduced and consistently treated as a dead man walking. Get over it.

No he wasn't.
First conversation, BRINGS UP A CURE.
Shadow Broker Files, BRINGS UP A CURE.

They wrote in pleanty of outs for him in ME2 and his character development tells us he will survive.

[o Ventus]

avenging_teabag wrote...

What you and OP have is an unhealthy emotional attachment to a fictional frog-man. Thane's death was completely logical and foreshadowed well in advance. Poor treatment of his storyline is a valid complaint (too little dialogue, the resolution too abrupt), his death itself however, is not. He was introduced and consistently treated as a dead man walking. Get over it.

It was ******-awfully foreshadowed. Sure, he's terminal, but if they were so dead-set (no pun intended) on having him die, why would they bother making so many numerous references to treatment or a potential cure?

There's:

1. His own personal mentioning of a cure being formulated by the hanar.

2. The Shadow Broker files which point out that Thane is elgible for a lung transplant.

Never mind that Thane's initial resignation to death, immediately followed by a potential fear of death and wanting to live isn't exactly a good way to foreshadow him dying.

[avenging_teabag]

o Ventus wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

What you and OP have is an unhealthy emotional attachment to a fictional frog-man. Thane's death was completely logical and foreshadowed well in advance. Poor treatment of his storyline is a valid complaint (too little dialogue, the resolution too abrupt), his death itself however, is not. He was introduced and consistently treated as a dead man walking. Get over it.

It was ******-awfully foreshadowed. Sure, he's terminal, but if they were so dead-set (no pun intended) on having him die, why would they bother making so many numerous references to treatment or a potential cure?

There's:

1. His own personal mentioning of a cure being formulated by the hanar.

2. The Shadow Broker files which point out that Thane is elgible for a lung transplant.

Never mind that Thane's initial resignation to death, immediately followed by a potential fear of death and wanting to live isn't exactly a good way to foreshadow him dying.

That's all well and good, but sometimes people die. Sometimes they even want to live, even knowing intellectually that they're dying. Maybe Thane didn't get a lung transplant, what with him being an assassin and all. Maybe his doctors were wrong. Maybe his disease advanced so far and so fast that the cure was useless for him. What we  know, 
Thane was terminally ill, and he died - that's not exactly out of the blue.
Compalining that the miracle cure didn't present itself for your fictional boyfriend because you clicked all the right dialogue lines is silly. 

[o Ventus]

avenging_teabag wrote...

That's all well and good, but sometimes people die. Sometimes they even want to live, even knowing intellectually that they're dying. Maybe Thane didn't get a lung transplant, what with him being an assassin and all. Maybe his doctors were wrong. Maybe his disease advanced so far and so fast that the cure was useless for him. What we  know, 
Thane was terminally ill, and he died - that's not exactly out of the blue.
Compalining that the miracle cure didn't present itself for your fictional boyfriend because you clicked all the right dialogue lines is silly. 

*rubs temples* This hurt my brain to read.

I can't make it any more clear than just "There are numerous ways to realistically have Thane survive through ME3 that doesn't involve a 'miracle cure'".

Why in the hell would Thane being an assassin affect his ability to get a lng transplant? His disease "could have advanced so far and fast"? If that were the case, he wouldn't be up and running around or exercising, or firing guns.

You also lose points for the "fictional boyfriend" line, because my avatar and signature make it SO CLEAR that I romance Thane, amirite?

[avenging_teabag]

o Ventus wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

That's all well and good, but sometimes people die. Sometimes they even want to live, even knowing intellectually that they're dying. Maybe Thane didn't get a lung transplant, what with him being an assassin and all. Maybe his doctors were wrong. Maybe his disease advanced so far and so fast that the cure was useless for him. What we  know, 
Thane was terminally ill, and he died - that's not exactly out of the blue.
Compalining that the miracle cure didn't present itself for your fictional boyfriend because you clicked all the right dialogue lines is silly. 

*rubs temples* This hurt my brain to read.

I can't make it any more clear than just "There are numerous ways to realistically have Thane survive through ME3 that doesn't involve a 'miracle cure'".

Why in the hell would Thane being an assassin affect his ability to get a lng transplant? His disease "could have advanced so far and fast"? If that were the case, he wouldn't be up and running around or exercising, or firing guns.

You also lose points for the "fictional boyfriend" line, because my avatar and signature make it SO CLEAR that I romance Thane, amirite?

First of all, i didn't mean you personally, it was more like a general "you", so apologies.

For all your other arguments, yes, the writers could have conceivably "cured" Thane if they so wanted. I never said that they could't have. They didn't, however - that was their choice, and that choice wasn't in any way illogical (unlike many other writers' choices in ME3). Thane was grvely ill, so he died. Artistic integrity, amirite?

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:13 .

[Ghost]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Talking about Female fan treatment...

Yeah.....
1.Garrus or Kaidan alone got more content than Miranda, Jack,  and Ash.

2. Kelly and Allers are not really LIs.

[HK-90210]

o Ventus wrote...

Thane was capable of biotic punching Leng, so he was capable of utilizing at least a small amount of his energy. His own fault for going with a melee attack instead of warping or throwing Leng. It wouldn't even need to be a particularly powerful attack either. Warp shreds armor to pieces and throw is self explanatory.

I'd agree that warp or throw would be enough, if Thane were healthy and at peak capacity. He isn't. A terminally ill drell is not going to be able to use biotics at the level required to do any good, IMO. When he pushed Leng before, it was when Leng was dazed and immobile. But if Leng is up and ready for it? Biotics could have been a viable option for Thane, but I doubt it.

o Ventus wrote...
I DID say that Shepard and co. need not bother shooting at Leng, did I not? Shepard has his powers, as does his squad. And like I said, if it would require harm to the Councilor to save their life, then Thane and Shepard should understand that. I'm not saying to shoot them in the stomach or anything, but a quick shot in the leg to drop them to the ground, then finish Leng while he stands there. Medigel will stop the bleeding.

How is using tech/biotic powers any different that using a gun, in terms of the chance of hitting Thane or the councilor? Any number of attacks, regardless of type, have a real chance of hitting the very person that you are trying not to hit. I don't think that makes a difference.

And using the "shoot the hostage" technique is a method of last resort. Say they shot the councilor. Then if they fail to kill Leng right then(A real possiblity, given that he can stealth, and has bitoic barriers), then you have to protect a wounded civilian. Not an ideal situation to put yourself in.

o Ventus wrote...
Notice how mobile Leng and Thane are during their scuffle. Once Thane and Leng had charged at each other, that was the PERFECT opportunity for Shepard or one of his allies to take action.

Even if Leng was able to keep the Councilor in-between himself and Shepard, there's still Thane and Shepard's 2 squadmates to deal with.

So right when Leng and Thane are moving very fast, getting closer and closer to one another, when the chances of getting Thane hurt in the crossfire are at their highest, THAT is moment to attack? Sorry, I think that is flawed tactics.

Here is the whole scene, as I see it, from a tactical POV on the part of Shepard's team.

Leng had the councilor at gunpoint and between himself and Shepard's team until Thane intervened. At any time, he could pull the trigger and accomplish his mission. He had control of the situation. Even if Shepard and co shot the councilor in the leg, there would be no guarantee of that making him/her any safer from a killshot by Leng. Leng had the hostage, he held the power. And without any game-changer, he just up and kills the councilor.

Thane's interferance changed this. In their first grapple, he and Leng were in close proximity, and there was far too great a chance of hitting Thane for Shepard's team to intervene, and they were also busy getting the councilor safely behind them. And as soon as Thane and Leng separated, Leng stealthed. Shepard's team forms a tight circle around the councilor. Their main goal is to prevent this assassination, not to kill the assassin, so keeping him/her safe is their top priority. This is the right move. To do otherwise would expose the councilor to too much risk.

When Leng unstealths, he puts Thane between himself and Shepard's team. Now, to attack Leng in any way would endanger Thane unnecessarily. At no time during their fight is Leng entirely exposed to Shepard's team. Thane is always in the way, protecting the councilor and Shepard's team. The longer Thane is in the fight and keeping Leng occupied, the safer the councilor is, so firing at Leng and getting Thane in the crossfire is NOT a good idea.

So until Leng stabs Thane, Shepard's team has very little chance of taking Leng out, and a very high chance of harming Thane, and weakening their tactical position. So during the whole fight, Shepard and his team has to stay put, protect the councilor and watch out for any additional interference, by Cerberus or friendlies. They had to trust Thane to handle Leng and keep the councilor safe. Anything else, and they would demean Thane putting his life at risk in the first place.

[lillitheris]

CastonFolarus wrote...

When Leng unstealths, he puts Thane between himself and Shepard's team. Now, to attack Leng in any way would endanger Thane unnecessarily. At no time during their fight is Leng entirely exposed to Shepard's team.

This is flat-out incorrect.

Not to mention that even if it was true, it’d simply be bad writing for Thane to not move and give a clear shot, or for one of the three others to move to get a clear shot.

It’s dumb, and wrong on all levels.

[Patchwork]

Ghost1017 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Talking about Female fan treatment...

Yeah.....
1.Garrus or Kaidan alone got more content than Miranda, Jack,  and Ash.

2. Kelly and Allers are not really LIs.

Garrus is only a romance option in 3 if he was romanced in 2. Kaidan has a 50% chance of being dead. It's hardly the same thing especially when you throw in the fact Jacob and Thane have so much less romance content than Miranda, Jack and Ashley it's not even funny.


I'm not convinced there should be an option to cure Thane or even save him from Lang but there should have been more scenes and dialogue, an acknowledgemet of his death.

[HK-90210]

lillitheris wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

When Leng unstealths, he puts Thane between himself and Shepard's team. Now, to attack Leng in any way would endanger Thane unnecessarily. At no time during their fight is Leng entirely exposed to Shepard's team.

This is flat-out incorrect.

Not to mention that even if it was true, it’d simply be bad writing for Thane to not move and give a clear shot, or for one of the three others to move to get a clear shot.

It’s dumb, and wrong on all levels.

I watched the scene over and over on youtube. The only moment where Leng is truly exposed while fighting Thane is after Thane uses his biotics to push him away. But Shepard and his team are busy boxing the councilor behind them at that time. As soon as the shot shows Shepard and co again, Shepard is just turing his back to the fight again. Like I said, their goal is to protect the councilor. The moment any of them move to get a clear shot at Leng, it can give Leng a shot at his goal. So no, the three others can't move. Not easily, and not without puttign the councilor in greater danger. And regardless, there is little hlep they can provide, especially once Thane and Leng really. Thane fights better alone, given his training.

So why doesn't Thane move and give Shepard's team a shot? Well for several reasons I would guess. One, he knows that Shepard's team isn't going to be very mobile while they protect the councilor. They have to move slowly, and keep the councilor boxed in behind them. As soon as Thane puts himself out of danger, Leng can finally use his moblity and stealth to maneuver around Shepard's team and kill the councilor. But if he stays where he is, Leng also stays put. He's not stealthed, wandering around the room looking for a shot. He's focused on Thane as a present threat. Thane's primary goal is not survival, nor even killing Leng. It is to protect the councilor. If his or Shepard's goal was to kill Leng at all costs, they would use the councilor to draw him out. But they don't.

A second reason, I would guess, is professional pride. Terminally ill or not, Thane is still an assassin. This fight is a one-on-one battle with another member of his profession. He has shown himself to be prideful on such matters. Hell, he even tells Shepard half the reason he took out Nassana in his recruitment mission, and half the reason he lived through it, was because Shepard had wounded his pride by goign after his target. "Pride is the difference between a professional, and a thug.", he says. This is his fight. He doesn't WANT Shepard's team to interfere. It's another reason I don't consider the fight, or the way Thane goes about it, against his character in the least.

I'm not saying that the fight scene was the best I've ever encountered. But I don't think it's a case of Thane getting the 'idiot ball'. And I'm on the side of Thanemancers, for the most part. I think Thane should have gotten more romanced dialogue. I think there should have been a way for Shepard to voice her feelings for him, to Thane or another person. And yes, I think there should have been a way to cure him. There are many aspects of Thane's protrayal in ME3 that I have a problem with.

His fight scene is simply not one of them. Sorry if you think my rationalizations to that end are 'dumb on all levels'.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .