47 réponses à ce sujet

[Shorinjikan]

I was too, but I have to say my sympathy doesn't run as deep as my elf's disgust at his behaviour. All his actions aren't down to the demon alone - it does what he wants, even if he can't control it.

[SarEnyaDor]

You can punch her if you want to kill Connor, otherwise you can make her kill Connor instead - that made me cry, my husband was laughing at me.

[WTFocker]

Yeah the connor-killing sequence surprised me. I expected him to be possessed the entire time, but he actually came out to talk.

[VehementAbyss]

I like having Shale at that point in the game he says something along the lines of perhaps it should crush it's head quickly

[kevinwastaken]

VehementAbyss wrote...

I like having Shale at that point in the game he says something along the lines of perhaps it should crush it's head quickly

Good ol' Shale, the lone voice of reason in the irrational, hormone charged world of Ferelden.

[Isaantia]

Sabriana wrote...

Sacrificing Isolde does take wife and mother, but her behavior destroyed many families utterly.

She needs to pay for what she has done, and going out in a blaze of glory is giving her a chance. Self sacrifice for a loved one is a noble deed, and better than letting her go on her merry way, unpunished for the terrible deeds she is ultimately responsible for.

Aside from that, I completely agree with what others are saying about leaving Redcliffe for the Circle Tower. That demon could raze Redcliffe, including the castle easily in two days. That's just the travel time, it takes a bit of time for the mages to organize as well, I imagine.

This is why on my human noble I let Isolde sacrifice herself too. It has the added bonus of letting Jowan redeem himself somewhat.... somewhat. My rogue doesn't see the big deal with blood magic, but she is angry with what happened to the town, the silly mission the knights were sent on and the fact that Isolde was lying to her husband about their son.

There was no way I'd kill Connor - this wasn't his fault at all. 

Also, as a nother poster mentioned,  if you choose the "I think it went well" option with Alistair, he agrees with you and you don't lose influence. That may be a bug or maybe you need high influence to start to make that work. Save that, there is always the cunning/persuade option for damage control. Should be a small enough loss that you can make it up with an action figure!

My mage PC went back to the tower, but still had Jowan head into the fade. She's not so keen on Blood Magic and I had already saved the tower on that playthrough.

[MrIsidor]

To answer some questions both general and directed to me.

No, I don't have kids of my own. I thought that would be obvious

I have in my two first playthroughs saved both Connor and Isolde by going to the circle and get some mages, as that seems to be the "right" thing to do. So I decided to do something different this time around. The (female) Dalish elf I'm playing now has a rather practical approach to problem solving and killing the abomination is without a doubt the seemingly quickest and most practical solution.
From a RP view, the only other option was letting a silly Shemlen mage perform some questionable ritual that, if it succeeded, would send Morrigan, the only other mage around, into the beyond. As my character don't trust Morrigan she's left in camp and not even in the party. (I've decided to play with a non-mage party this time) Getting to camp to fetch Morrigan would also be a delay and my character wants the problem solved asap.
The option of getting to the Circle tower to fetch some mages to do a "safe" ritual wasn't even mentioned, so my character didn't even know about it. Difficult to pick a choice you don't know about, isn't it. (That I know about it has nothing to do with it. That's why it's called Role Playing)

As for punishing Isolde, that without a doubt is responsible for the entire mess, letting her die is a too easy punishment, especially since she's asking for it herself. Having her lose her son so that everything she's done is for nothing, leaving her totally devastated, seems to be a much harder punishment. And if you're gonna punish her, then why not do so in the hardest way possible?

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

Don't you all believe in redemption and 2nd chances? Isolde made a mistake, but so do we all. And if there's a way to save them all, why not take it?

Yeah, but I can't remember the last time my mistakes wiped out, or almost wiped out all the staff in my castle, and half a village.  I'm having a hard time remembering when my mistakes caused my spouse to lie in a coma, and my son to be possessed by a demon too.  So, while on the surface, your argument looks valid, it really doesn't apply to this situation.  Not to mention that what she was initially doing is, to quote Alistair, "Illegal".  Connor would never be anything but an Apostate if Isolde had her way, and, seeing as she's presented as this hyper religious personality, it is also a contradiction to what she professes to believe.

For this, I still go to the Tower to get the mages, and I have done the ritual with Jowan.  I have not, at this time, killed Connor yet, although I suppose I will have to just to see how it plays out.  Even Teagan points out that it's all Isolde's fault that the situation occured at all.  If she had done the right thing to begin with, then things wouldn't have spiraled out of control, and there would have been no need for an Apostate Blood Mage in Redcliffe Castle.  So, yeah, I've made mistakes, but none of them have ended up with the catastrophic loss of life that Isolde's did.  I frankly feel a bit dirty when I save them all, since she's very capable of doing the same thing again, if not likely to.

[Zenon]

Kalfear wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Maybe I as a person believe in redemption and second chances, but I got some characters I'm playing as who most certainly don't.

hehe my next play through will be as a evil mage so I plan on killing Connor.

But you know the character im going to enjoy killing the most?

Zevran! Soon as he looks up at me and calls me handsome (or what ever he says) im closing the gay mouth forever! End of story! 

Back to Connor though, can you still unlock Blood Mage if you kill Connor? First time playing a Mage so maybe ill kill him, then reload earlier save and goto to circle and come back and bump ugly with desire demon for the Blood Mage unlock.

Have to see when I get there I guess 

As far as I know until now you can only unlock blood-magic, if you take the offer of the Desire Demon in the Fade with your mage character. Even Morrigan won't negotiate with the demon in the Fade. Hmm, maybe she's not that evil after all?

To me the most evil action is to have Jowan do his ritual sacrificing the -- at least willing -- Isolde and then accept the offer of the Desire demon, which will grant you "evil" blood magic plus haunt the boy later making him potentially much more dangerous as grown mage than he is now. Only hope is, that Connor may be strong enough in the future to resist the demon, but a selfish character could care less about that. In the end the castle and the village are saved, but the price is different. I'd still consider this most evil, because the mage would get something out of this at the cost of other people's lives and causing them suffering.

Is sacrificing Isolde evil, if you decline the offer of the demon and simply destroy it? More difficult to answer. It's not clear, if you have enough time to go to the Circle of Magi. Sure, you destroyed most likely all of the current undead at the castle, but this won't prevent Connor to make new ones. Being self-righteous you could argue, the sacrifice serves Isolde right for having caused this whole story develop into a nightmare by not sending Connor to the Circle or Magi in the first place. When he enters the Circle of Magi, his contact with his family will be severed anyway for at least a decade. So you're actually punishing Arl Eamon more than Connor by the sacrifice. Remains to see how Connor will feel about it, when he learns his mother gave her life to save him, but also because of him?

[Crunchyinmilk]

Isaantia wrote...
This is why on my human noble I let Isolde sacrifice herself too. It has the added bonus of letting Jowan redeem himself somewhat.... somewhat.

I HATE Irving (and his relationship with Greagoir). I always feel he is to a large degree responsible for how Jowan turns out. Did Jowan really turn to blood magic out of desperation to appear strong enough for his Harrowing?

I prefer to save the circle before visiting Redcliffe and I let Jowan confront the demon in the fade. That way he both redeems his role in Redcliffe a little, AND proves to Irving that just maybe, with the right direction he could have passed his harrowing and NONE of this would have happened.

I need a smack Irving mod.

Connor has such potential, and I usually play characters with a bent for championing the rights of mages so I just cannot bring myself to kill him. Having Eamon indebted to me and the mages circle doesn't hurt.

It really seems like Isolde gets off scott free though (mental scars aside) If you save Connor with the Mage's help. Which is kind of humorous when Eamon chides Anora for similar abuse of wiles in his Denerim estate.

What I hate most of all about this quest is that I have to walk the long way around the bloody lake to reach the mage's tower. Even when Teegaaaaaaan suggests I take a boat across...

[Zenon]

Actually letting Jowan go into the fade makes that part of the game fairly tough, because (at least in my game) there were no potions or anything else to assist Jowan in this edeavour.

P.S.: I made it, but probably next time I'll do it again myself. Didn't try Wynne yet. But probably wouldn't make a hell of a difference compared to e.g. Morrigan.

Modifié par Zenon, 18 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[Sidney]

Isolde deserves to die, she's the "guilty" party in the whole thing.....although I did off the little abomination my first game.

[Agni108]

For me the most satisfying result is smacking the mother and killing Connor. Dont know why, but it just feels right. Its the simplest and quickest resolution of the problem, and time is of the essence.  Whose to say that little Connor wont be possessed by another demon in the future? He has already demonstrated a proclivity toward that end at an early age. Whose to say what he will become in the future? A dreadful maleficar, like Uldred? Better off him now, before many more die from a future possession. However, I admired him for stoically accepting his own death as the best option, and he even agreed to help me do so. Clearly, he didnt want to be the source of more deaths.

I also personally executed Jowan, who had likewise proven himself to be a disaster to everyone around him. Somehow, doing these things makes me feel like justice has been done, and the situation becomes clean. Too much moral ambiguity in the other possible choices. The fate of the entire land, with all of its people, is at stake. This is not the time for equivocation. Loose canons, who are capable of causing needless turmoil, such as that in Redcliffe, should not be given a "second chance".

Like Connor, Jowan is willing to accept his fate. He knows he has done wrong, and deserves to die. I felt no compunction to "save" him, anymore than any of the countless (probably innocent) guards my character slayed during the course of the adventure.

Modifié par Agni108, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:42 .

[Archonsg]

Don't forget that a desire demon cannot force someone to do something that he or she doesn't already desire. Which is why Isolde and Arl Eamon isn't dead. He didn't want them to be. While it is true that the demon did take over Connor, it is acting out Connor's desire to rule, Connor's dreams of conquest and his lack of respect for the common man, which as a spoiled castle brat due to his mother, gave the desire demon her fuel in the tragedy that befell Redcliffe village.



So, in essense, in saving Connor, can you be sure you won't have a murdering tyrant when he comes of age and takes rulership of the Bann? It seemed to be foreshadowed if you saved Connor and Earl Eamon mentions Connor's seemingly odd behavior during the coronation even if you didn't make the deal with the demon in the fade.



I think this particular quest line had one of the best writing in terms of the player dealing with things he (should or would later) know about the fade, possession and how demons operate as well as just how one would react morally to it all. Especially for players who pay more attention to the story and what is written, no matter what you do, kill Connor, kill Isolde or save everyone, you are made to think about the repercussions of your actions.

[Squiggles1334]

The real tragedy about choosing to kill Connor is that as a result, you let that shrill harpy Isolde live.

[Agni108]

Archonsg wrote...

Don't forget that a desire demon cannot force someone to do something that he or she doesn't already desire. Which is why Isolde and Arl Eamon isn't dead. He didn't want them to be. While it is true that the demon did take over Connor, it is acting out Connor's desire to rule, Connor's dreams of conquest and his lack of respect for the common man, which as a spoiled castle brat due to his mother, gave the desire demon her fuel in the tragedy that befell Redcliffe village.

So, in essense, in saving Connor, can you be sure you won't have a murdering tyrant when he comes of age and takes rulership of the Bann? It seemed to be foreshadowed if you saved Connor and Earl Eamon mentions Connor's seemingly odd behavior during the coronation even if you didn't make the deal with the demon in the fade.

I think this particular quest line had one of the best writing in terms of the player dealing with things he (should or would later) know about the fade, possession and how demons operate as well as just how one would react morally to it all. Especially for players who pay more attention to the story and what is written, no matter what you do, kill Connor, kill Isolde or save everyone, you are made to think about the repercussions of your actions.

Brilliant analysis. I didnt realize this about the desire demon. In this case, getting rid of Connor, who clearly demonstrated an overwhelming desire to ruthlessly subjugate and kill his subjects, will likely be a blessing to the people in the future.

Isolde may be selfish in her desire to save her son at the cost of villager lives, but she has no intention, or position, to exercise ruthless authority like Connor. She is just an overprotective soccer mom, who has lost touch with reality.

Modifié par Agni108, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:07 .

[morrisbrown]

From a dramatic standpoint, I'd say that Connor dying is the best possible solution to that storyline. It's got a very Faustian feel to it. Isolde makes a poor decision and makes a deal with the "devil" in an effort to keep her son, so it seems fitting that she'd set into motion a chain of events that would cause her to lose her son. And the fact that she has little concern for the well-being of anyone else around her really hammers home the fact that she needs to be punished accordingly.

[Crunchyinmilk]

It seemed to be foreshadowed if you saved Connor and Earl Eamon mentions Connor's seemingly odd behavior during the coronation even if you didn't make the deal with the demon in the fade.

I'm right with you on this in one of my play throughs (as a mage), I got this line from Eamon as well, but I'm not certain it wasn't another end game bug.   

I didn't get this comment from Eamon when playing a noble rogue in a different play through, despite solving redcliffe in the same fashion re: Connor.  I even got some info on Connor at the mage tower in an epilogue, about him doing fine...

[Gold Dragon]

My first Run-thru, I killed Connor. I punched his mother and killed the Boy. When I went to Camp, Alistair confronted me.



At the end of it all, Alistair APPROVED of my actions, with a +7. I believe it was because I chose the more remorseful (and even Appoligized) topics.



And ended up being Queen, anyways.

[ImNotTrent]

i just like punching Isolde in the face. i hate to kill Connor, but man, i love to punch her in the face.. so it's about 50/50 between the blood ritual and killing Isolde, and killing Connor to punch her and make the rest of her life miserable knowing her selfishness killed her son that she so wanted to protect.

[AntiChri5]

I can understand why people are saying you dont know from a role play perspective if you will make it back in time, but has no one thought to justify it by saying you left your companions behind at Redcliffe to defend against whatever forces Conner can scrounge together? At this point you have: You, Allistair, Morrigan, Dog, Lelliana, Sten. and possibly: Shale, Zevran, Wynne Oghren. Would have been great if you had to leave some behind and they had to defend against Connor when you finished Circle and said to go back to Denerim. Remember defending the gates at Denerim?