175 réponses à ce sujet

[Proleric]

I've teamed up with some other NWN folk to make "Crown of Creation", a new adventure set in the gameworld of Enigma Island. Right now, we're just having fun playing the OC and learning. Making the module will take a few months.

[adembroski11]

Whailor wrote...

So, what's bad with Fallout 3 and Oblivion modders?

Nothing at all... Oblivion and Fallout 3 were 100% better games because of the modding community, and I'm not trying to make a comparison in terms of skill. To be honest, 90% of the NWN module builders wouldn't know where to begin when making Oblivion mods... however, the toolset combined with the mentality of that community meant that that which was created was far more useful.

I can play Oblivion or Fallout 3 indeterminable number of ways due to the modding community, but it's the same storyline, same characters, same game. Yes, modding makes it more interesting, deep, exciting, and engaging, but it's the same story each time I play it.

[Inhuman one]

thats true, and if you had to play all neverwinter nights modules available out there you might have enough for a lifetime before you finished them all.



Not even mentioning online persistent worlds.. those stories never end.

[Qkrch]

Ey. I'd like to throw a sharpen knife...



When the force got disturbed by the release of NWN2... many people complained about the complexity of the Electron toolset and maintained their faith in the Aurora toolset, hoping that DA would drop an easy toolset.



It didn't happen, right? Don't you think the people that modded with NWN2 have some kind of advantage with those who didn't?

[giskard44]

adembroski11 wrote...

It seems like this game's community is primarily made up of those with the Oblivion/Fallout 3 mentality; continue expanding on the core SP game. Where are the NWVault folks, the story tellers and module builders? I realize it's early, but not a single module has been completed? 

Well theres a lot to learn and it is like working out how to solve the chicken and the egg problem for us that are lol. The original tutorials had many errors or obmissions so we where left with a very unfriendly toolkit and had to work out things like Atmo-Sun Intensity is Bioese for Day or Night.

Quest Modules need us to have an understanding of all areas and thats whats taking the time but everybody is pulling in the same direction. We will get there eventually. 

[E.C.Patterson]

FalloutBoy wrote...
Furthermore, I think this toolset is actually easier to use than NWN2 in many ways. Outdoor level editing is no harder than NWN2 and the lightmaps make it look a lot better. Indoor levels are harder since the "tiles" don't fit together very well. NPC creation is easier and making unique head morphs is fun IMO. Item creation is the same. Convo editor is the same, though it uses plots instead of local vars. Scripting is pretty much the same except we have to predefine persistant variables in a 2da, I can live with that. Cutscene editor is outstanding. There are features that I miss from NWN2, but not enough for me to say that either toolset was better.

Thanks for that quick summary FB. Sounds encouraging, overall.

I'm a NWN2 modder too, and like Wyrin, keeping a close eye on things here while I keep on modding for NWN2 for the time being. After 3 years with  the NWN2 TS, there's a certain comfort, bread of familiarity, in working with it. Leaving that comfort for the new unknown that is the DA TS might be a bit jarring if and when it happens, but I don't doubt the same degree of comfort will grow over time. At least the transition might not be as shocking as if I were moving from the NWN1 TS.

Modifié par E.C.Patterson, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:19 .

[Kalem40]

I often tell the programmers that work for me that ease of use for our clients translates into more work for us. The intuitive product takes longer to build.



I miss the old NWN toolset. It was so easy to work with. It felt quite a bit more like the mod tools you see on the consoles, except it allowed you to write robust scripts.



The DA Builder gives us quite a bit of power. I'm looking forward to playing around with user created content a couple of months down the road. The learning curve however, is rather steep, and the occasional game breaking exports drive many nuts (although there are work arounds for those nutty exports). Between the learning curve, and the export issues, Casual Joe modder is going to be turned off (well not every one, but quite a few I'd say). But it's not just Joe Modder, I can see those who code for a living being turned off as well. After a long work week, overtime, trying to meet deadlines, the last thing you want to do is work with a toolset that makes modding feel like work.



Perhaps after they patch the tool, and give us access to the core game, we'll see more activity from modders.

[Ranlas]

Kalem40 wrote...

Perhaps after they patch the tool, and give us access to the core game, we'll see more activity from modders.

You mean access to the core game like this, or do you mean something else?

[Inhuman one]

I am guessing pretty much anyone that used the NWN1 toolset misses it, or would at least want to see a new toolset be just as userfriendly.



A more powerfull toolset is nice and all, but its no good if its only making sense to about 5% of the playerbase or even less.



Kind of like giving a Hi-tech sports car to an african tribe person that would know as much about using a car as most gamers know about programming.

[AmstradHero]

I dabbled with the NWN1 toolset, and then migrated to the NWN2 toolset with the learning curve that it entailed.

DA: O's toolset has an even greater learning curve than NWN2's toolset, but as a result has even more power and flexibility.  It is taking people some time to get up to speed, but it is happening.

I've got my first (small) project in the pipeline, which will be a warm-up for my first major modding standalone adventure.

[Kaedrin]

I'm looking to do some work for DA in February probably though I'm not quite sure what yet. I've got some notes on what I'd like to add but I'd also like to do storytelling/module work and not just my comfort zone of CC.



I've got a lot to finish first in NWN2 before I can work on either/both. That also gives Bioware some time to figure out what to fix with the toolset for Steam clients as it's far more tedious to get running than a non-steam client and I don't have that kind of patience at the moment. If the situation still isnt' resolved by February I'll probably buy a non-steam client.

[A1x2e3l]

I am curious what is that “Oblivion/Fallout 3 mentality”?
I am from Morrowind/Oblivion modding community. The fact is
that without importers/exporters DA:O modding community is crippled and obliged
to “play” with the same “bricks” provided by BioWare. It is not possible IMO to
create a really interesting mod without new asserts. Moreover,
NetImmerse/Gamebryo game engine as well as TES construction sets are
significantly easier to learn for not professionals: just few file formats,
straightforward implementation in the game (e.g. for testing), relatively
simple scripting language, available detailed documentation, tutorials. We can
concentrate on creating new 3D models, textures, animations, quests and not on
fighting with numerous buggy converters, and trial and error experiments with
ToolSet.

Yes, modding makes it more interesting, deep,
exciting, and engaging, but it's the same story each time I play it.

Yes, depends on what mods you are installing: in case only
beautification mods, that’s true. But there are zillions of long quest mods
comparable with official addons. Time will show whether DA:O community programmers (there are
3 or 4 of them only and they are working on separate projects) would be able to
create working Max/Blender/Maya/XSI importers/exporters at least for main game
model types: 3D models, animations. Another issue whether game engine allows to
add new stuff in the game (e.g. new animation) or only to replace existing
ones. We have no idea about very basic simple things e.g. how to add new eye lashes
texture. TES community was definitely better informed equipped by Bethesda. Do
not forget that NetImmerse/Gamebryo game engine is used in hundreds of other
games, some of them are moddable and have their own big active modding
communities. Many game features are overlapping, and CivIV or FF tutorials and
tools are very useful for modding MW or OB.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .

[FollowTheGourd]

A1x2e3l wrote...
It is not possible IMO to
create a really interesting mod without new asserts.

It depends on what you find interesting, but as can be attested to with other NWN and NWN2 modules, you can make pretty creative use of the same old assets. What's more interesting to some are the custom stories you can create versus the hundredth minor game tweak or barbie doll mod. ;-)

NetImmerse/Gamebryo game engine as well as TES construction sets are
significantly easier to learn for not professionals: just few file formats,
straightforward implementation in the game (e.g. for testing), relatively
simple scripting language, available detailed documentation, tutorials. We can
concentrate on creating new 3D models, textures, animations, quests and not on
fighting with numerous buggy converters, and trial and error experiments with
ToolSet.

I might have selective memory on this, but didn't the animations have to be created by tweaking existing animation files, the conversation conditions were sort of messy to me - at least in FO3 (and the main story had lots of examples of losing track of divulged information), and there were third party tools for models IIRC (NifSkope). It's also been around a lot longer than DA has been. The scripting language seemed a lot buggier than anything I remember in NWN, too. I have a pretty vague recollection of it, but did they ever fix how dropping and picking up items caused save game bloat, or whatever it was again? My point is there seemed to be so many random caveats at the time. I'm sure DA:O will have its fair share, but I don't think Gamebryo was some Utopia of modding.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[tmp7704]

A1x2e3l wrote...

It is not possible IMO to create a really interesting mod without new asserts.

Would argue this, considering Bioware managed to produce not just a mod but the whole game using the very same assets we get to play with. Certainly, ability to add entirely new things can help but if someone finds it not possible to create anything "really interesting" with the huge bank of assets they already have at their disposal, then i'd say at least part of the issue is with the "creator", not just the tools.
 

We have no idea about very basic simple things e.g. how to add new eye lashes
texture.

Extract the eyelash texture from the default textures bank ("pf_ulm_bas_0d.dds" is one of them)  Load into Photoshop or another editor, adjust the content of alpha channel as you see fit, save the resulting file as DXT5 dds file with a name containing "_ulm_" into core/override/data directory. The texture will now appear as one of available options for "Lashes Texture" in the head editor, next time you launch the Toolset.

[AmstradHero]

A1x2e3l wrote...
It is not possible IMO to create a really interesting mod without new assets.

I am afraid I wholeheartedly disagree. When I'm playing an RPG, I'm playing it because I want to roleplay. I want to be drawn into the story and I want to make hard decisions and watch the effect I have on the world and the characters. that said, I do understand that some people feel that new art assets make a big difference to making new stories unique.

I made my NWN2 module Fate of a City without using any new models, and that was a deliberate choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say that additional assets are bad, and I really appreciate the work of people who create them. However, I'll be more than happy to use the existing content that ships with DA to create a fully fledged campaign.

If it's good enough for BioWare, it's good enough for me.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .

[stzehn]

I did a lot of work with the god old NWN Toolset and I am planning to work on a larger mod on DA:O as well. What buggs me most is the amount of work required for level design to produce something looking halfway descent. While in NWN I would have produced a dozen areas in the same time including matching custom content tilesets together and 2da customizing. I hope at some point in the future there will be at least some prefabs around to make life a litle bit easier. What i am also missing is the amount of custom content models availible (including animated ones). Time will show.

[A1x2e3l]

I am afraid I wholeheartedly disagree.

Well, for many of us video games are not chess, pure
combinatoric. Dialogues, immersion will not save the situation. Visual
impression (good graphics, new interesting asserts) is a very important
component of a game shelf life span. It is possible to play one, two, ten mods
with the same creatures and buildings (there are not many of them in the game,
btw), but 20-50, performing same combinations and tricks could be boring.
Modders are sensitive to negative feedback for their work (I know that form my
personal modding experience) and often do not see a broader picture. If you are
modding for your personal use every even small achievement is awesome. In case
your are intending to release your work for public it is reasonable to take in
consideration what other people are thinking even if they have different
opinion. Imagine DA:O modders from the whole world produced 100 quest mods all
with the same armor, clothes, creatures, trees – what a dull picture! How will
I select your very immersive city mod from this plethora?
Having said that I would agree with you that without
interesting deep quests, story line even excellent models turned to be useless
eye candies, perfect form with no intellectual/emotional content.

If it's good enough for BioWare, it's good enough for
me.

For you, may be, only you are deciding that. But I would not
speak for BioWare: even tiny released so far DLCs contain many new models. They
would like to release Max exporters (but they cannot, third party stuff, etc.).
At least that’s what they are saying. They can do that deliberately in order to
secure their paid DLCs from competition from modders’ products e.g. many
Oblivion mods are significantly better than official addons. They have
business, not charity.
Anyhow, there are no tools and no choice. What’s left?:
sharpen imagination, writing skills, and play BioWare cubes,…and be happy!

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 19 décembre 2009 - 07:05 .

[Qkrch]

But... in NWN we always had the sentence "Stuff the developer cannot do, is stuff for the community"I already have seen these fellows of the nwn community that are releasing exporting tools.



In NWN1 there were hundreds of lovely modules with standard assets and nobody complained, even knowing that the game is a square repeat process (tiles). In DA, would be silly not to give variety to the blueprints... i could have the same armor model but i'm sure its magical properties will be different.



The lack of creatures maybe is a step back, and include some new visual models wouldn't be bad for a new module... but i'd wait that from large modder teams .

[Inhuman one]

With Neverwinter Nights you where given a lot more stuff in the base game however.



It already allowed a great deal of different possible armors and clothes to be made, in many different color combinations.



Also a lot more different creatures. Dragons, Slaadi, Orcs, Ogres, Goblins, Vampires, Skeletons, Wraiths, Bugbears, Liches, beetles, spiders, Balor's, Succubi, Dryads, Penguins, cows, chickens, shadows, Yuan-Ti's, bears, wolves, Doom Knights, Intellect Devourers, Ettercaps, Trolls, hook horrors, Umber Hulks, Whisps, Ravens, falcons, dogs, worgs, panthers, boars, badgers, oxes, golems, battle horror's, elementals, Giants, Trolls, Lizardfolk, Pixies, Nymphs, Minotaurs, gargoyles, Archons, Hell hounds, Rakasha's, Vrocks, Mephits, Ghouls, Mummy's. Bodak's, Wight's and Zombies.



If I am correct, thats the full list of available creatures of an unpatched NWN1 without expansions. I have the toolset open here and checked.



As for area design being limited, with creative use of objects, lightning and music you can create a lot of different settings with the same toolset. Its something I was quite proud of myself, to be able to use the standard city interiour to create a middle eastern tavern. Some yellowish lightning and music that fits the theme you want to accomplish the mood is already set, then its just a matter of decoration with the right objects.

[Axe_Murderer]

Inhuman one wrote...

...
Also a lot more different creatures. Dragons, Slaadi, Orcs, Ogres, Goblins, Vampires, Skeletons, Wraiths, Bugbears, Liches, beetles, spiders, Balor's, Succubi, Dryads, Penguins, cows, chickens, shadows, Yuan-Ti's, bears, wolves, Doom Knights, Intellect Devourers, Ettercaps, Trolls, hook horrors, Umber Hulks, Whisps, Ravens, falcons, dogs, worgs, panthers, boars, badgers, oxes, golems, battle horror's, elementals, Giants, Trolls, Lizardfolk, Pixies, Nymphs, Minotaurs, gargoyles, Archons, Hell hounds, Rakasha's, Vrocks, Mephits, Ghouls, Mummy's. Bodak's, Wight's and Zombies...

Actually most of these you have listed were not in the original release of NWN1. I got mine a good year and a half after release (v1.24) and there aren't even any rats, gnolls, hobgoblins, or kobolds in the version on my CD. In fact, I just pulled out my NWN manual and looked in the "Foes" section and there are only 10 different monsters described in it. There may have been a little more variety with the NWN creatures than in DA:O, but the difference isn't nearly what you're portraying it to be with that list. I think what you're comparing there is maturity not variety.

Modifié par Axe_Murderer, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:05 .

[Estelindis]

*waves* You called? :innocent:

My initial feeling about DA:O is that it has a fabulous OC...  Good enough to distract me from NWN for a while!  But NWN has always called me back from other games before, and I expect it'll do so this time too.  Modding's just easier.  (Or perhaps I'm just too set in my old patterns!)

Modifié par Estelindis, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:55 .

[FalloutBoy]

Inhuman one wrote...
As for area design being limited, with creative use of objects, lightning and music you can create a lot of different settings with the same toolset. Its something I was quite proud of myself, to be able to use the standard city interiour to create a middle eastern tavern. Some yellowish lightning and music that fits the theme you want to accomplish the mood is already set, then its just a matter of decoration with the right objects.

While I don't disagree with this, the reason I didn't like NWN was that if I'm building an area I have to look at the tiles and say "What can I make with these?" With DA I can decide what I want to build first, then put the pieces together. It takes a lot more work, but the end result is that I could possibly make an area that you've never seen anything like before. The extra effort is worth it for the result IMO.

EDIT: I do miss the monster variety from NWN, and the ability from NWN2 to rescale creatures to make them look like other creatures. Still, reskining something isn't too hard and maybe with some custom AI and VFX we can make some original creatures.

Modifié par FalloutBoy, 19 décembre 2009 - 07:51 .

[BenWH]

I'm still checking out the OC...

[Inhuman one]

Erhm Axe_Murderer, did you even read the list?



I didnt mention Hobgoblins, rats, kobolds and gnolls because they werent included yet.



I might be off about one or two creatures, but I may have forgotten some as well. Ultimately, the number of different creatures is what I put down there.



The campaign I didnt finish since I quit somewhere at chapter 2, but at chapter 1 I am very certain that I did encounter skeletons, zombies, a lich, panthers, mephits, a Yuan-Ti, Intellect Devourer, hell hounds, helmed horror's, ghouls, shadows and mummy's.



And from chapter 2 there where trolls, ogres, giants, goblins, orcs and bugbears for certain.

[Seryn]

I'll be making a DA:O mod with the toolset eventually, but I'm still playing the OC, savoring every bit of it without rushing through to finish. Based on how long it took me to make NWN & NWN2 mods, I would guess it will be at least 6 to 9 months before I have something ready for release with the DA:O toolset.