285 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

They have programming that approximates a conscience based on experiences they've had and that's it. It's a checksum list and that is it. They are not created with one and it is not something that can be manufactured. I don't think it was meant in a literal sense but metaphorically. Sorry but facts are they are not life, but an imitation thereof. It is a great fantasy that programs can gain life or sentience. I admit it makes for a great fiction story and I am entertained by the various iterations from Magnus robot fighter on down.

See Tali said that about Legion because it sacrificed itself for the rest of the geth. It was a projection based on her capacity for emotion that geth lack. People do that with their pets. To Legion it was one vs billions of geth programs and logical conclusion says it would necessitate self-destruction for the greater good. The problem is even though Legions programs are gone the geth still have every impression of it and in a way it is not gone forever and will be part of the geth forever.

Tali called Legion he or him as anthropomorphism. Geth have no gender or sex and it was a meaningless distinction. The voice sounded more male than female and that is all. Tali/Shepard saw things in Legion that were not present.

Legion was different than the others because it could think outside the consensus, but still was influenced by it heavily. BW made it seem like it had emotions, yet it said that it did not feel like humans and had no emotions like fear or even anger. 

They can create a moral code and that still does not equal soul. They can emulate any facet of organic social constructs and that is all it is. The best answer is the geth are period. They exist (in a fictional game setting) and are not explained by any human phenomena.

I doubt Legion would ever have sacrificed itself for a human child or perfect stranger like some people do for others on our mudball. Everything it did served the geth cause even in the final act of presumed discorporation.

I think the whole thing was a spoof on religion seeing as the game setting seems to not respect it that much. Ashley is made out to be a kook and most humans do not believe as they did. Asari seem to believe little by invoking goddess all the time cheapening what should be something arcane and private to just a public acknowledgement with no worth like saying bless you when someone sneezes. Hanar believe in the enkindlers and make a religion out of that. Geth parody human rites in worshipping the old machines in ME.

If you believe a machine has a soul you bought into a philosophy that the writers created. They wanted people to feel emotions and it made for some touching moments in a cinematic experience.

I love the games and have no distaste for how they have treated the mature themes within. It is a refreshing change to have a game that makes people think deeply and feel passionately about characters and happenings in the setting. The main thing is believe what you will and that is I think what they tried to get across.

My opinion says no Legion cannot have a soul ,but I cannot force my answer on anyone else. According to how the game is written my opinion might be wrong. If they say geth have souls then that is fact in their universe.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:58 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

[Warp92]

It is just a simulation of life, a very very good one at that. Also I think you may get flamed but I agree with you OP

[Conniving_Eagle]

What is a soul?

And what defines living and non living?

Organics were also created. Are we better than synthetics because our fruition was more miraculous?

[What a Succulent Ass]

"Organics were also created."

I like where this thread is going.

[ElementL09]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer.
/thread

+1
This pretty much simplifies a comment I was going to make.

[InvincibleHero]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

Alright, *cracks knuckles*, let's write a response. First I need to organize my thoughts, and then I can put them into an organized and...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

OH COME ON!

[InvincibleHero]

Warp92 wrote...

It is just a simulation of life, a very very good one at that. Also I think you may get flamed but I agree with you OP

Thank you. They are the product of the quarians period. They are only given life through the thoughts and fancies of the writers that created the concept.

[Soltana]

I'm an atheist and I say you, me, and every other living thing have no souls, i.e. the word "soul" is subjective.

[Skirata129]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

Oh really? and how is your response to situations any different?

[CronoDragoon]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

/thread

And yet you can do anything counter to the logic your brain and experiences tells you. Legion and the geth cannot. They have to do what best answer gets computed from consensus because that is all they know.  

You know why humans can do this: free will. That comes from something.

I doubt the definition of a soul is your ability to bang hookers that you suspect have STDs.

[Soltana]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I doubt the definition of a soul is your ability to bang hookers that you suspect have STDs.

Lol'd heartily. Good show, sir.

[HK-90210]

*drive by arguement*

Reginald......I DISAGREE!

*Drives off*

[InvincibleHero]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

What is a soul?

And what defines living and non living?

Organics were also created. Are we better than synthetics because our fruition was more miraculous?

I cannot define that for you. By any dictionary meaning without seriously misreading could you even make a an argument a machine could plausibly have one.

Does windows have a soul? It is a collection of programs like the geth. Is it alive? There is your answer. NO.

Whether one is better or not is off topic and would be flame bait material.

Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human. I bet I could name a thousand things and you'd get every one right whether living or non-living. You know what the definition is but choose to ignore it in favor of a fantasy fiction.

[sporeian]

Soltana wrote...

I'm an atheist and I say you, me, and every other living thing have no souls, i.e. the word "soul" is subjective.

I'm a deist and I say that we all have a soul, but we as humans cannot fatom what is going on in this world.

[InvincibleHero]

Random Jerkface wrote...

"Organics were also created."

I like where this thread is going.

Please the topic is not creationism vs. evolution and is against the forum rules to do so. I would be displeased if anyone got banned from discussing things OT. Stay germaine to the topic please.

[What a Succulent Ass]

I'm not getting within a mile of religious debate.

But you did make an assertion based on a word that is grounded in inherently spiritual concepts. If not that, then your entire argument is "AI cannot be alive because they use bytes instead of chemicoelectric signals."

[DriftingMustang]

"I doubt Legion would ever have sacrificed itself for a human child or perfect stranger like some people do for others on our mudball. Everything it did served the geth cause even in the final act of presumed discorporation."

extremely few people do that. I know I wouldn't. does this mean me and the majority of the population have no souls. Legion Sacrificed himself for his race. now this is something I would do.

"See Tali said that about Legion because it sacrificed itself for the rest of the geth. It was a projection based on her capacity for emotion that geth lack. People do that with their pets. To Legion it was one vs billions of geth programs and logical conclusion says it would necessitate self-destruction for the greater good. The problem is even though Legions programs are gone the geth still have every impression of it and in a way it is not gone forever and will be part of the geth forever."

dont we pass down history as well, isnt sacrifice about the logical deduction of yourself is worth less than what you sacrifice yourself for. animals do feel BTW, they process it differently. people from person to person do to btw.

"Legion was different than the others because it could think outside the consensus, but still was influenced by it heavily. BW made it seem like it had emotions, yet it said that it did not feel like humans and had no emotions like fear or even anger. "

Don't we think in a social manner as well. also study psychology, there are people without these emotions as well. Emotions are an evolutionary adaption on how to deal with the world. so what, they feel in a different way.

"I think the whole thing was a spoof on religion seeing as the game setting seems to not respect it that much. Ashley is made out to be a kook and most humans do not believe as they did. Asari seem to believe little by invoking goddess all the time cheapening what should be something arcane and private to just a public acknowledgement with no worth like saying bless you when someone sneezes. Hanar believe in the enkindlers and make a religion out of that. Geth parody human rites in worshipping the old machines in ME"

beliefs are often an important part of a person. why is ash a kook, well humanity gets less religious as we get more advanced. in the future of course religion will look like a joke to most, it already does now to many.

"They can create a moral code and that still does not equal soul. They can emulate any facet of organic social constructs and that is all it is. The best answer is the geth are period. They exist (in a fictional game setting) and are not explained by any human phenomena"

Humans are not a baseline for life. we are simply a life form. no human phenomena in bacteria. its still life.

"If you believe a machine has a soul you bought into a philosophy that the writers created. They wanted people to feel emotions and it made for some touching moments in a cinematic experience."

I would say they presented both sides to that and what you saw really depended on the choices you made as well as how you interpreted the information. thats just an opinion though.

conclusion: Racist

I bet if you were born white and in america in the 19th century you would have argued that black people belonged under the category of animal rather than human. yes, this was argued back then. anything that fights for self preservation and adapts to do so is life. AKA, EdI was not a life form till its shackles were released by joker. in reality that is the day EDI was born.

not life, your computer, see if it resists any attempt to do well, anything and if it bypasses its programming on its own to stop you. just hit shut down and tell me the result.

[AlanC9]

IH, you kinda put creationism into play here:

InvincibleHero wrote...

 They are not created with one and it is not something that can be manufactured.

Why can't a soul be manufactured? This makes sense if some sort of God owns the IP for souls, but otherwise not.

As others have said, the definition of "soul " is pretty vacuous. And the definition of "life" ain't much better.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:31 .

[InvincibleHero]

Soltana wrote...

I'm an atheist and I say you, me, and every other living thing have no souls, i.e. the word "soul" is subjective.

This is an invalid argument. Just because you believe people do not have the defined quality does not make the definition one that changes based on what individuals feel. A defintion is not subjective ever. It can be proven wrong making it invalid as a defintion, but it is defined by its nature if not name. It is not up to interpretation by the end user. it is not opinion.

The problem also becomes do you speak for everyone? You can believe what you will that is fine. Your philosophy works for you, but does not apply for everyone. Your argument can only be corrected to I believe I do not have a soul.

[Esquin]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

"Organics were also created."

I like where this thread is going.

Please the topic is not creationism vs. evolution and is against the forum rules to do so. I would be displeased if anyone got banned from discussing things OT. Stay germaine to the topic please.

Except that really is what the debate comes down to. Well not in exactly that way but the debate is where do souls come from. Are they given to organics by a creator or are they something that is inherrent to concious sentient thought?

[InvincibleHero]

@ Skirata 129 "Oh really? and how is your response to situations any different?"

People can do things contrary to their well-being such as disrespect their boss and get fired over some small matter. It isn't smart to do and you know better. A machine based on logic would not ever do an action deemed illogical.

As a child you defy your parent even if you know a punishment is coming. You don't care you want what you want period. Some people never grow out of that stage. (BTW not implying you are like that)

Point is we are capable of doing stupid things of our own volition.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:46 .

[InvincibleHero]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I doubt the definition of a soul is your ability to bang hookers that you suspect have STDs.

Please do not spam or insult. Next time you will be reported. These forums can be much more pleasant for everyone if some people were respectful.