285 réponses à ce sujet

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Soltana wrote...

I'm an atheist and I say you, me, and every other living thing have no souls, i.e. the word "soul" is subjective.

This is an invalid argument. Just because you believe people do not have the defined quality does not make the definition one that changes based on what individuals feel. A defintion is not subjective ever. It can be proven wrong making it invalid as a defintion, but it is defined by its nature if not name. It is not up to interpretation by the end user. it is not opinion.

The problem also becomes do you speak for everyone? You can believe what you will that is fine. Your philosophy works for you, but does not apply for everyone. Your argument can only be corrected to I believe I do not have a soul.

So what you're saying is:
"You don't agree with me so your argument is invalid."

Oh, okay. I get it now. You sir, are very well worded troll. Good day to you.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The human brain is just an organic computer. You can only assume qualia in other beings.

I like the cut of your jib, sir. 

[InvincibleHero]

Random Jerkface wrote...

I'm not getting within a mile of religious debate.

But you did make an assertion based on a word that is grounded in inherently spiritual concepts. If not that, then your entire argument is "AI cannot be alive because they use bytes instead of chemicoelectric signals."

The game implied Legion had a soul. It outright said it in verbalizations from Tali. That is the only relevance. There is no need to bring real world religion into it. Soul is defined in Webster's or any other reference.

A machine is not alive nor are programs. Thus no soul in geth.

[SebAusFR]

I am always amazed that people cannot imagine the possibility that a self-aware machine would probably not ask questions such as "do I have a soul?". That's because the machine would recognise "soul" is a concept invented by some organic philosophers to explain something they did not understand. A sufficiently advanced IA consciousness would be based on the same principles as a human one, albeit with a different material substrate.

So technically, yes Geth have no souls. But Shepard or Tali do not have any either. All of them have consciousnesses that arose from the activity of a complex substrate (brain, CPUs, etc.). But I'm okay with using the word "soul" for the sake of the drama

[incinerator950]

[**image deleted. user banned **]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:27 .

[InvincibleHero]

DriftingMustang wrote...

"I doubt Legion would ever have sacrificed itself for a human child or perfect stranger like some people do for others on our mudball. Everything it did served the geth cause even in the final act of presumed discorporation."

extremely few people do that. I know I wouldn't. does this mean me and the majority of the population have no souls. Legion Sacrificed himself for his race. now this is something I would do.

"See Tali said that about Legion because it sacrificed itself for the rest of the geth. It was a projection based on her capacity for emotion that geth lack. People do that with their pets. To Legion it was one vs billions of geth programs and logical conclusion says it would necessitate self-destruction for the greater good. The problem is even though Legions programs are gone the geth still have every impression of it and in a way it is not gone forever and will be part of the geth forever."

dont we pass down history as well, isnt sacrifice about the logical deduction of yourself is worth less than what you sacrifice yourself for. animals do feel BTW, they process it differently. people from person to person do to btw.

"Legion was different than the others because it could think outside the consensus, but still was influenced by it heavily. BW made it seem like it had emotions, yet it said that it did not feel like humans and had no emotions like fear or even anger. "

Don't we think in a social manner as well. also study psychology, there are people without these emotions as well. Emotions are an evolutionary adaption on how to deal with the world. so what, they feel in a different way.

"I think the whole thing was a spoof on religion seeing as the game setting seems to not respect it that much. Ashley is made out to be a kook and most humans do not believe as they did. Asari seem to believe little by invoking goddess all the time cheapening what should be something arcane and private to just a public acknowledgement with no worth like saying bless you when someone sneezes. Hanar believe in the enkindlers and make a religion out of that. Geth parody human rites in worshipping the old machines in ME"

beliefs are often an important part of a person. why is ash a kook, well humanity gets less religious as we get more advanced. in the future of course religion will look like a joke to most, it already does now to many.

"They can create a moral code and that still does not equal soul. They can emulate any facet of organic social constructs and that is all it is. The best answer is the geth are period. They exist (in a fictional game setting) and are not explained by any human phenomena"

Humans are not a baseline for life. we are simply a life form. no human phenomena in bacteria. its still life.

"If you believe a machine has a soul you bought into a philosophy that the writers created. They wanted people to feel emotions and it made for some touching moments in a cinematic experience."

I would say they presented both sides to that and what you saw really depended on the choices you made as well as how you interpreted the information. thats just an opinion though.

conclusion: Racist

I bet if you were born white and in america in the 19th century you would have argued that black people belonged under the category of animal rather than human. yes, this was argued back then. anything that fights for self preservation and adapts to do so is life. AKA, EdI was not a life form till its shackles were released by joker. in reality that is the day EDI was born.

not life, your computer, see if it resists any attempt to do well, anything and if it bypasses its programming on its own to stop you. just hit shut down and tell me the result.

Reported for your insult. The rest is not worth responding to after that. Enjoy your deserved ban. I take no pleasure in that.

[Ageless Face]

If Geth don't have a soul, then I guess souls are not that important.

[InvincibleHero]

AlanC9 wrote...

IH, you kinda put creationism into play here:

InvincibleHero wrote...

 They are not created with one and it is not something that can be manufactured.

Why can't a soul be manufactured? This makes sense if some sort of God owns the IP for souls, but otherwise not.

As others have said, the definition of "soul " is pretty vacuous. And the definition of "life" ain't much better.

Did the quarians create a soul for the geth? No. Did the geth some how make their own? Implausible.

[Siansonea]

I've seen Legion dance. He may not have A soul, but he does have soul.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:03 .

[InvincibleHero]

Esquin wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

"Organics were also created."

I like where this thread is going.

Please the topic is not creationism vs. evolution and is against the forum rules to do so. I would be displeased if anyone got banned from discussing things OT. Stay germaine to the topic please.

Except that really is what the debate comes down to. Well not in exactly that way but the debate is where do souls come from. Are they given to organics by a creator or are they something that is inherrent to concious sentient thought?

Using a clinical definition and not a theological one does it apply? I don't think it does via the argumnet in OP. You can differ with that of course. Does the game prove it to be so with empirical evidence according to any of the defintions in any major dictionary Websters etc. ? That is the argument. 

[InvincibleHero]

TheIdiocyWizard2.0 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Soltana wrote...

I'm an atheist and I say you, me, and every other living thing have no souls, i.e. the word "soul" is subjective.

This is an invalid argument. Just because you believe people do not have the defined quality does not make the definition one that changes based on what individuals feel. A defintion is not subjective ever. It can be proven wrong making it invalid as a defintion, but it is defined by its nature if not name. It is not up to interpretation by the end user. it is not opinion.

The problem also becomes do you speak for everyone? You can believe what you will that is fine. Your philosophy works for you, but does not apply for everyone. Your argument can only be corrected to I believe I do not have a soul.

So what you're saying is:
"You don't agree with me so your argument is invalid."

Oh, okay. I get it now. You sir, are very well worded troll. Good day to you.

Not at all. I am saying we do not get to create our own definitions for concepts that are already defined. Words have meaning because they have accepted definitions. You cannot then apply your philosophy to everyone else.

Your misread gave no justification for the insult of troll. I will report you next time.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:09 .

[InvincibleHero]

Siansonea II wrote...

I've seen Legion dance. He may not have A soul, but he does have soul.

That's cute and in a way correct.

[AlanC9]

InvincibleHero wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Why can't a soul be manufactured? This makes sense if some sort of God owns the IP for souls, but otherwise not.

Did the quarians create a soul for the geth? No.

An actual argument there would be useful. But you're not really here for that, are you?

I'd settle for an answer to my question. Why can't souls be manufactured?

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:13 .

[InvincibleHero]

AlanC9 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Why can't a soul be manufactured? This makes sense if some sort of God owns the IP for souls, but otherwise not.

Did the quarians create a soul for the geth? No.

An actual argument there would be useful. But you're not really here for that, are you?

I'd settle for an answer to my question. Why can't souls be manufactured?

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth? No. Primary evidence. If you can cite otherwise then do so.

Your Q Why? The definition does not allow for manufacturing to be any part of the process. There is no list of ingredients or process to make one. That is not even an argument for philosophy. It is just not possible in how the word is defined.

Alan I gave quite a wordy argument and never troll. I think I backed my side adequately and will not devolve into a religious argument because I do not want banned. I enjoy the ME 3 multiplayer immensely.

[Ageless Face]

InvincibleHero wrote...
I cannot define that for you. By any dictionary meaning without seriously misreading could you even make a an argument a machine could plausibly have one.

Does windows have a soul? It is a collection of programs like the geth. Is it alive? There is your answer. NO.

Whether one is better or not is off topic and would be flame bait material.

Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human. I bet I could name a thousand things and you'd get every one right whether living or non-living. You know what the definition is but choose to ignore it in favor of a fantasy fiction.

Life is a subjective term. Alive for me is something that feel, aware, think... Why does the fact a synthetic life form is made from other materials makes it less alive?

Let me ask you something. If you will stick a human brain into a synthetic body, without this person ever needing to drink, eat, sleep, but still think like a human, does that mean he's not alive? Does that mean he doesn't have a soul?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:21 .

[elegolas1]

Before anyone argues whether the geth have a soul or not, "soul" must have a consistent definition.
OP, what is your definition of a soul?

[DriftingMustang]

InvincibleHero wrote...

DriftingMustang wrote...

"I doubt Legion would ever have sacrificed itself for a human child or perfect stranger like some people do for others on our mudball. Everything it did served the geth cause even in the final act of presumed discorporation."

extremely few people do that. I know I wouldn't. does this mean me and the majority of the population have no souls. Legion Sacrificed himself for his race. now this is something I would do.

"See Tali said that about Legion because it sacrificed itself for the rest of the geth. It was a projection based on her capacity for emotion that geth lack. People do that with their pets. To Legion it was one vs billions of geth programs and logical conclusion says it would necessitate self-destruction for the greater good. The problem is even though Legions programs are gone the geth still have every impression of it and in a way it is not gone forever and will be part of the geth forever."

dont we pass down history as well, isnt sacrifice about the logical deduction of yourself is worth less than what you sacrifice yourself for. animals do feel BTW, they process it differently. people from person to person do to btw.

"Legion was different than the others because it could think outside the consensus, but still was influenced by it heavily. BW made it seem like it had emotions, yet it said that it did not feel like humans and had no emotions like fear or even anger. "

Don't we think in a social manner as well. also study psychology, there are people without these emotions as well. Emotions are an evolutionary adaption on how to deal with the world. so what, they feel in a different way.

"I think the whole thing was a spoof on religion seeing as the game setting seems to not respect it that much. Ashley is made out to be a kook and most humans do not believe as they did. Asari seem to believe little by invoking goddess all the time cheapening what should be something arcane and private to just a public acknowledgement with no worth like saying bless you when someone sneezes. Hanar believe in the enkindlers and make a religion out of that. Geth parody human rites in worshipping the old machines in ME"

beliefs are often an important part of a person. why is ash a kook, well humanity gets less religious as we get more advanced. in the future of course religion will look like a joke to most, it already does now to many.

"They can create a moral code and that still does not equal soul. They can emulate any facet of organic social constructs and that is all it is. The best answer is the geth are period. They exist (in a fictional game setting) and are not explained by any human phenomena"

Humans are not a baseline for life. we are simply a life form. no human phenomena in bacteria. its still life.

"If you believe a machine has a soul you bought into a philosophy that the writers created. They wanted people to feel emotions and it made for some touching moments in a cinematic experience."

I would say they presented both sides to that and what you saw really depended on the choices you made as well as how you interpreted the information. thats just an opinion though.

conclusion: Racist

I bet if you were born white and in america in the 19th century you would have argued that black people belonged under the category of animal rather than human. yes, this was argued back then. anything that fights for self preservation and adapts to do so is life. AKA, EdI was not a life form till its shackles were released by joker. in reality that is the day EDI was born.

not life, your computer, see if it resists any attempt to do well, anything and if it bypasses its programming on its own to stop you. just hit shut down and tell me the result.

Reported for your insult. The rest is not worth responding to after that. Enjoy your deserved ban. I take no pleasure in that.

what insult?

that synopsis at the end is comparative to your argument for geth not being life. it is an example comaprison to 19th century thought of defining human. I didnt say you feel this way, im sayong many white americans in the 1800's did and the thought process of excluding geth from life falls along the same lines.

I would appreciate it if you had respect for my opposed opinion. Yes I see you as racist and a biggot against none-organic life but that is my opinion and that is my view on you. dont take it as an insult because i utterly disagree with you

Modifié par DriftingMustang, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .

[crosspriest]

Interesting points made all round.  But really, the idea of an entire race having a soul because they are organic?  We were, (according to documents dating back into the B.C era of human history) created by a single entity and placed on this earth only after exercising our free will.  Something about a snake and apple I think.  So, in essence, we were created as well.  Everything started somewhere correct?  I propose that your argument is invalid.  Moreso than that of Soltana's, given that your argument is hypocritical in and of itself.  The logic is flawed.  How can man have a soul and Geth not.  Both created one way or another, whether by evolution, or by entities beyond our comprehension.  Answer now, how could we have "manufactured" or "developed" a soul?  And if, by some sort of space magic, you can explain it, then can the Geth not do the same?  Or do you postulate that our souls have always been and always will be around, and we are mere vessels for entities such as the Space Child?

[KrAzY WiSh]

Geth do not have a soul, neither does anyone else.

There is no way you can prove otherwise so the discussion need go no further.

EDIT: sorry to add this a little after posting. Would choosing the Synthesis ending give the Geth? If you use the op`s definition of soul.

Modifié par KrAzY WiSh, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[InvincibleHero]

HagarIshay wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
I cannot define that for you. By any dictionary meaning without seriously misreading could you even make a an argument a machine could plausibly have one.

Does windows have a soul? It is a collection of programs like the geth. Is it alive? There is your answer. NO.

Whether one is better or not is off topic and would be flame bait material.

Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human. I bet I could name a thousand things and you'd get every one right whether living or non-living. You know what the definition is but choose to ignore it in favor of a fantasy fiction.

Life is a subjective term. Alive for me is something that feel, aware, think... Why does the fact a synthetic life form is made from other materials makes it less alive?

Let me ask you something. If you will stick a human brain into a synthetic body, without this person ever needing to drink, eat, sleep, but still think like a human, does that mean he's not alive? Does that mean he doesn't have a soul?

Impossible scenario as organic material aka brain would still need nourishment oxygen and yes rest. It would be a cyborg as defined if it is even possible. If he retained all his personality and knowledge and what made him human then yes I'd say they still have a soul.

Alive yes because the organic processes are still evident.

The geth have none of this so it is irrelevant.  They are code with robot bodies for locomotion and other functions.

[AlanC9]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth? No. Primary evidence. If you can cite otherwise then do so.

They made conscious beings. 

Your Q Why? The definition does not allow for manufacturing to be any part of the process. There is no list of ingredients or process to make one. That is not even an argument for philosophy. It is just not possible in how the word is defined.

Really? What definition of  "soul" are you using?

M-W gives us:

1: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life

2: the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe

1 applies to the geth's AI programs unless you can prove they're not alive. 2's middle clause applies unless you can prove they're not "spiritual." Which would need some definition itself, since I have no idea what "spiritual" is supposed to mean.

Your move.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:31 .

[sistersafetypin]

What is a soul? I think we have to give that a concrete definition before we go saying a sentient race doesn't have one

[DriftingMustang]

that synopsis at the end is comparative to your argument for geth not being life. it is an example comaprison to 19th century thought of defining human. I didnt say you feel this way, im sayong many white americans in the 1800's did and the thought process of excluding geth from life falls along the same lines.

I would appreciate it if you had respect for my opposed opinion. Yes I see you as racist and a biggot against none-organic life but that is my opinion.

[elegolas1]

sistersafetypin wrote...

What is a soul? I think we have to give that a concrete definition before we go saying a sentient race doesn't have one

I concur

[InvincibleHero]

elegolas1 wrote...

Before anyone argues whether the geth have a soul or not, "soul" must have a consistent definition.
OP, what is your definition of a soul?

Tell you what bring any defintion of soul from a valid source like Webster's and prove the geth exhibit the characteristics named. I went through them and could come up with no rationalization that it applied in any manner.