285 réponses à ce sujet

[elegolas1]

SebAusFR wrote...

I am always amazed that people cannot imagine the possibility that a self-aware machine would probably not ask questions such as "do I have a soul?". That's because the machine would recognise "soul" is a concept invented by some organic philosophers to explain something they did not understand. A sufficiently advanced IA consciousness would be based on the same principles as a human one, albeit with a different material substrate.

So technically, yes Geth have no souls. But Shepard or Tali do not have any either. All of them have consciousnesses that arose from the activity of a complex substrate (brain, CPUs, etc.). But I'm okay with using the word "soul" for the sake of the drama

Ditto

[The Angry One]

I like how people assume the Quarian definition of a soul is the same as the human definition.
It may be, but we don't know. According to Quarian beliefs, humans may not even qualify the same way that some humans believe any aliens wouldn't.

This is an abstract. The question was not meant to demonstrate whether the Geth actually have a soul or not but to show the Geth reached a level of consciousness where they can think about these things.

[InvincibleHero]

DriftingMustang wrote...

that synopsis at the end is comparative to your argument for geth not being life. it is an example comaprison to 19th century thought of defining human. I didnt say you feel this way, im sayong many white americans in the 1800's did and the thought process of excluding geth from life falls along the same lines.

I would appreciate it if you had respect for my opposed opinion. Yes I see you as racist and a biggot against none-organic life but that is my opinion.

I would have been fine with your opinion had you not insulted me gravely calling me racist and would think of blacks as animals. You can plead your case to whatever EA person responds to this.

This is a fictional race of robots and there is no need for vitriol.

[Arken]

InvincibleHero wrote...
I cannot define that for you. By any dictionary meaning without seriously misreading could you even make a an argument a machine could plausibly have one.

Does windows have a soul? It is a collection of programs like the geth. Is it alive? There is your answer. NO.

Whether one is better or not is off topic and would be flame bait material.

Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human. I bet I could name a thousand things and you'd get every one right whether living or non-living. You know what the definition is but choose to ignore it in favor of a fantasy fiction.

Then let's forget about life for a minute. What about sentience?

Humans are sentient. Geth are also sentient. They are aware of their existence, wish to continue existing, have shown the ability to regret their actions, have shown the ability to become engraged, etc and so on.

The human brain is nothing more than an organic computer, as someone stated before, there is nothing that makes humans different from AIs aside from humans being made from flesh rather than machines.

Emotions, and opinions are the result of the brain computing the appropriate response based on past experiences. AI are fully capable of emotions and opinions.

Humans can only make a choice based on what is preprogrammed within their mind to do. If there's no information on the subject than we won't know what to do. If we see someone is in pain we'll probably know they're in pain, because our brain kept track of what signs of pain are either from our own experience or someone else's.

AIs are the same. The learn from experiences, and integrate that knowledge to know what to do if the situation arises again.

The difference between Legion and Shepard is that Legion is made of metal. Legion is a sentient being, and wishes to ensure the continuation of its people's existence.

[Ageless Face]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Impossible scenario as organic material aka brain would still need nourishment oxygen and yes rest. It would be a cyborg as defined if it is even possible. If he retained all his personality and knowledge and what made him human then yes I'd say they still have a soul.

Alive yes because the organic processes are still evident.

The geth have none of this so it is irrelevant.  They are code with robot bodies for locomotion and other functions.

So it's all about the brain. The human soul is inside the brain.

Well, then Geth have their own brain. It's not like us work, that's true. But the different is not what you think it is. It's not about their working with codes. Our brain is also working based on codes. The different between a human brain and a synthetic one is that we have emotions.

So does that mean the soul is actually our emotions in the brain?

[Anvos]

I am honestly amazed how many people get taken in by legion and the geth's whole we poor innocent people who are abused by our creators. Without the massive effort to sympethize the geth I highly doubt there would be this much belief that they are more than robots.

The simple matter is the geth are a complex network of complex VIs that went rogue/corrupt and stopped listening to their creators and programed function, and has since been largely operating based on forming consensus by running calculated probability scenarios. Plus they are machines and programs, neither of which are alive.

Conventionally one would consider life a requirement to have any sort of soul, thus since the geth aren't alive there can be no soul.

I guess you could try and make an arguement that once with reaper upgrades they might be some kind of psuedo soul, but that soul would only be stealing the soul of the race that was forcefully imprisioned in the rannoch reaper. Thus the geth would then be as much of a profaine abomination against life as the reapers are.

Modifié par Anvos, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[sistersafetypin]

InvincibleHero wrote...

elegolas1 wrote...

Before anyone argues whether the geth have a soul or not, "soul" must have a consistent definition.
OP, what is your definition of a soul?

Tell you what bring any defintion of soul from a valid source like Webster's and prove the geth exhibit the characteristics named. I went through them and could come up with no rationalization that it applied in any manner.

The onus is on you, as you are the one making the claim that the Geth do not have one. 

[elegolas1]

InvincibleHero wrote...

elegolas1 wrote...

Before anyone argues whether the geth have a soul or not, "soul" must have a consistent definition.
OP, what is your definition of a soul?

Tell you what bring any defintion of soul from a valid source like Webster's and prove the geth exhibit the characteristics named. I went through them and could come up with no rationalization that it applied in any manner.

You could do that yourself

[elegolas1]

sistersafetypin wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

elegolas1 wrote...

Before anyone argues whether the geth have a soul or not, "soul" must have a consistent definition.
OP, what is your definition of a soul?

Tell you what bring any defintion of soul from a valid source like Webster's and prove the geth exhibit the characteristics named. I went through them and could come up with no rationalization that it applied in any manner.

The onus is on you, as you are the one making the claim that the Geth do not have one. 

We keep saying the same things
I feel like I know you already

[The Angry One]

Anvos wrote...

I am honestly amazed how many people get taken in by legion and the geth's whole we poor innocent people who are abused by our creators. Without the massive effort to sympethize the geth I highly doubt there would be this much belief that they are more than robots.

Taken in? You are welcome to prove that this is not exactly the case.

The simple matter is the geth are a complex network of complex VIs that went rogue/corrupt and stopped listening to their creators and programed function, and has since been largely operating based on forming consensus by running calculated probability scenarios. Plus they are machines and programs, neither of which are alive.

By that logic, neither are we. We are essentially biological machines who's only actual purpose is to propagate our genes.

Conventionally one would consider life a requirement to have any sort of soul, thus since the geth aren't alive there can be no soul.

Assuming a soul is a real actual thing and not an abstract concept.

I guess you could try and make an arguement that once with reaper upgrades they might be some kind of psuedo soul, but that soul would only be stealing the soul of the race that was forcefully imprisioned in the rannoch reaper. Thus the geth would then be as much of a profaine abomination against life as the reapers are.

What?

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[DriftingMustang]

InvincibleHero wrote...

DriftingMustang wrote...

that synopsis at the end is comparative to your argument for geth not being life. it is an example comaprison to 19th century thought of defining human. I didnt say you feel this way, im sayong many white americans in the 1800's did and the thought process of excluding geth from life falls along the same lines.

I would appreciate it if you had respect for my opposed opinion. Yes I see you as racist and a biggot against none-organic life but that is my opinion.

I would have been fine with your opinion had you not insulted me gravely calling me racist and would think of blacks as animals. You can plead your case to whatever EA person responds to this.

This is a fictional race of robots and there is no need for vitriol.

so your mad because you have portrayed yourself to me as a racist biggot against a fictional race and i made the comparison to historical context that falls along a similar line? 

[AlanC9]

Incidentally, this is simply false.

InvincibleHero wrote...
Life is defined as an organism ;plant, animal, or human.

The Wikipedia page actually has a fairly good discussion of this. Note that geth easily fit the alternative definitions for life, and fulfill at least three and arguably six of the seven conditions for biological life.

Modifié par AlanC9, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

I guess you could try and make an arguement that once with reaper upgrades they might be some kind of psuedo soul, but that soul would only be stealing the soul of the race that was forcefully imprisioned in the rannoch reaper. Thus the geth would then be as much of a profaine abomination against life as the reapers are.

ARGUMENT HAS OFFICIALLY REACHED SUFFICIENT LEVELS OF ABSURDITY, EVERYONE ELSE GO HOME.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[BSpud]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Not at all. I am saying we do not get to create our own definitions for concepts that are already defined. Words have meaning because they have accepted definitions. You cannot then apply your philosophy to everyone else.

Common and sustained usage of a word by humans defines that word, even if that means definitions change over time or from region to region, culture to culture, or institution to institution.

In the case of  "soul" there are various interpretations.

In the supernatural sense, differing belief systems can define the soul in contradictory ways. To some, souls are immortal, to others, they die with the body. To some, only humans have them, to others, all living things possess souls. This usage of "soul" is abstract and open to interpretation because it's a fabricated phenomenom. In general, the soul in this case is you reduced to your most basic, substanceless form while still being you (which is nonsense, by the way).

Another common usage of the word "soul" is as a poetic synonym for "sapience; cognition; the total sum of possessing human-like virtues; and/or demonstrating free will." This is still pretty much as abstract and fuzzy a concept as the supernatural one, but it's this usage of the term that applies to Legion, and could arguably apply to any "true AI" in reality.

Modifié par BeefheartSpud, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:48 .

[Muhvitus]

Free will is an illusion. Your brain has similar restrictions as any complex computer does. In computer there might be programming that cannot be rewritten or such, same way you have certain chemical workings and synapses and brain fuctions that you cannot will to be different. It is possible to change your behaviour just by changing chemical balance in your brain and make you sad or angry etc. You cannot overcome your brain chemistry with will power.

Furthermore, defining soul by dictionary is bit daft as the words used to describe soul have different meaning depending on culture and beliefs. For example atheist wouldn't consider soul to mean same thing as christian or muslim. I havent seen the rules of any religion defining how souls are constructed and what rules there are about who/what gets one.

[The Angry One]

Sion1138 wrote...

Neither do I.

What exactly is a soul anyway?

Wasn't James Brown the godfather of it?

[Necrotron]

I am fairly confident the entire side plot of synethics story arc of Mass Effect 2 & 3 beg to differ. The entire point of Legion, EDI, and the Geth/Quarian peace was to show that synthetics are indeed alive and do have 'souls', as we call it.

Modifié par Bathaius, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[Bob the Elcor]

With sarcasm, can I just say that the Geth are obsessed with music.
With unrivalled embarrassment, I have no idea why i wrote this incredibly bad joke, but I am going to leave it there as a reminder to myself to never do it again.

Modifié par Bob the Elcor, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .

[ediskrad327]

we have about the same kind of souls as they do

[BSpud]

Muhvitus wrote...

Free will is an illusion. Your brain has similar restrictions as any complex computer does. In computer there might be programming that cannot be rewritten or such, same way you have certain chemical workings and synapses and brain fuctions that you cannot will to be different. It is possible to change your behaviour just by changing chemical balance in your brain and make you sad or angry etc. You cannot overcome your brain chemistry with will power.

This. And many others.

Also what TAO and Random Jerkface say, like, ever.

[InvincibleHero]

AlanC9 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth? No. Primary evidence. If you can cite otherwise then do so.

They made conscious beings. 

Your Q Why? The definition does not allow for manufacturing to be any part of the process. There is no list of ingredients or process to make one. That is not even an argument for philosophy. It is just not possible in how the word is defined.

Really? What definition of  "soul" are you using?

M-W gives us:

1: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life

2: the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe

1 applies to the geth's AI programs unless you can prove they're not alive. 2's middle clause applies unless you can prove they're not "spiritual." Which would need some definition itself, since I have no idea what "spiritual" is supposed to mean.

Your move.

You're going to have to prove the conscious beings part. Maybe you meant some other term.

They are not life as defined. Note they created a new term synthetic life for the game. They are made of inanimate objects aka metal and glass etc and cannot be defined as life by any conventional means. Really they are simply lines of code a string of 1s and 0s. There is nothing else to them they replicate in strings of 1s and 0s by copying programs that are extant. They are animated by some power source not really defined is it battery electrical whatever. Thus 1 does not apply.

Legion has exhibited no real spirituality in the game proper. Besides it is easy to invalidate as it specifies human beings.

I loved the Legion/geth story. I just don't think they can be ever defined to be alive or have a soul. If someone created a geth on earth I would respect its right to exist as long as it did not endanger the well-being of humanity aka skynet doom and gloom. I don't think it will ever be possible that code can become self-aware. It can only ever do that which it was created for period.

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

[The Angry One]

InvincibleHero wrote...

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

Oh you mean like how they killed the Quarians 300 years ago, and this is why there's no such person as Tali.

[DriftingMustang]

InvincibleHero wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Did the game ever mention quarians gave a soul to the geth? No. Primary evidence. If you can cite otherwise then do so.

They made conscious beings. 

Your Q Why? The definition does not allow for manufacturing to be any part of the process. There is no list of ingredients or process to make one. That is not even an argument for philosophy. It is just not possible in how the word is defined.

Really? What definition of  "soul" are you using?

M-W gives us:

1: the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life

2: the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe

1 applies to the geth's AI programs unless you can prove they're not alive. 2's middle clause applies unless you can prove they're not "spiritual." Which would need some definition itself, since I have no idea what "spiritual" is supposed to mean.

Your move.

You're going to have to prove the conscious beings part. Maybe you meant some other term.

They are not life as defined. Note they created a new term synthetic life for the game. They are made of inanimate objects aka metal and glass etc and cannot be defined as life by any conventional means. Really they are simply lines of code a string of 1s and 0s. There is nothing else to them they replicate in strings of 1s and 0s by copying programs that are extant. They are animated by some power source not really defined is it battery electrical whatever. Thus 1 does not apply.

Legion has exhibited no real spirituality in the game proper. Besides it is easy to invalidate as it specifies human beings.

I loved the Legion/geth story. I just don't think they can be ever defined to be alive or have a soul. If someone created a geth on earth I would respect its right to exist as long as it did not endanger the well-being of humanity aka skynet doom and gloom. I don't think it will ever be possible that code can become self-aware. It can only ever do that which it was created for period.

They make decisions based on observation and evidence not by right and wrong or any moral concept. If their consensus said murder all organics to ensure our continuation they would do it with no qualms.

www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/scientists-create-first-self-replicating-synthetic-life/

BW obviosly didnt invent the term
Right and wrong are based on an observation of evidence
many people do not exhibit spirituality